Opinions sought: Elektra T1 vs. Cimbali Junior DT1 vs. Vibiemme DoubleDomo Super

[zin1953]

Rather than hijack anyone else's thread, namely Tink's (Heidi's) "Information Overload. Please help Me choose an espresso machine." or Marty Wooten's "If you had to choose between the following espresso machines...", I've decided to post my own version of "Upgrade-itis Solutions."

Here are MY options for a ROTARY PUMP, PLUMBED-IN machine, and what I see as their pros and cons, respectively. Please feel free to chime in with your opinions, be they based upon experience or not -- just let me know which it is! (BTW, the main grinder will remain the La Cimbali Max Hybrid.)

Option No. 1: Elektra T1 Automatic

Pros: 6.0L boiler, large enough for any conceivable occasion; absolutely gorgeous; programmable volumetric dispensing (six options!); solid, reliable workmanship.
Cons: a bit on the large side (13.5"w x 19.5"d x 17.0"h), but that's a minor point, as I have the room; requires a 20 amp circuit, meaning I have to have the kitchen rewired (something I will not be doing myself).

Option No. 2: La Cimbali Junior DT/1 Automatic

Pros: adequate size boiler for my needs (at least 95% of the time!); programmable volumetric dispensing (four options); smaller footprint (12.6"w x 18.5"d x 17.25"); solid, reliable workmanship, a workhorse; 15 amp circuit.
Cons: not the world's most beautiful machine (OK, I'm being polite) -- my least favorite, aesthetically, of the three options.

Option No. 3: Vibiemme Double Domo

Pros: double boiler + PID'd, making temperature control "easy"; solid reputation (based on single-boiler HX model); 15 amp circuit; visually beautiful; approximately $1,000 less than the other two choices.
Cons: new technology (for Vibiemme); not volumetrically controlled (thus virtually ending any hopes of my wife ever using the machine, and making it more difficult for me to multi-task); large-ish footprint (10.6"d x 21.0"d x 16.5"h), but --again -- very doable.

Anyone want to chime in with their 2¢?

Cheers,
Jason

[shadowfax]

I wish I could help more, but I have only ever seen one of these machines in person--the Elektra T1. It is stunningly gorgeous in person. Between the Cimbali and that one, I would take the T1 any day of the week without any second thought. The only thing I see that the Cimbali has going for it is extremely high quality parts and construction, and I got the same impression from the review of the Elektra as well as getting to see it for myself. For you, 20 amps is an issue, which is not surprising. I would think it's gotta hurt to drop $4k on a machine and then have to spend another couple hundred getting the wiring redone. Personally, I would run the cable to the outlets myself and let an electrician hook them up. Might save him some time and you some money, if you don't mind getting up in the attic (or whatever it may take).

Still, all that considered, unless you are thinking of entertaining that borders on catering, I think I would go with the DoubleDomo. You can always buy a spare espresso machine with the money you save between the machine and the potential rewiring that you avoid for entertaining higher volumes. Expobar and Nuova Simonelli have some solid HX machines that you could keep in the attic, only to bring out for parties.

Heh, that's a funny thought.

[Dogshot]

Are you sure about the volumetric dosing? I'm not convinced that it will make things easier for your spouse, and it does add more buttons, complexity, and things that could go wrong. My wife loves the coffee that I make, but she rolls her eyes at the things I do to make coffee, and only makes coffee when i am not home. I know that if I had an HX, she would never make coffee at all. So, if your spouse is not into espresso the same way that you are, I suspect that the only way you stand a chance of getting her to use it is to go with the DoubleDomo. But you already have a machine, don't you? Does she use it at all? If not, then the DD is your only hope.

However, all the machines you are looking at are expensive, and I question the long-term reliability of (relatively) compact espresso machines with all those electronics built-in. How's that PID going to be behaving after 2-5 years of sitting in that hot environment? Synesso gets criticized for putting the electronics under the drip tray, which is too far out of the way for easy changes on-the-fly, but that was probably done for a good reason. Anyhow, in 2-5 years, your Elektra would just be hitting its stride.

All three are beautiful machines, and my 0.02 is to go for the DD if it is that important to you that your spouse be able to use the machine with any degree of success; or forego the electronics and the volumetric dosing and get the Elektra's more straightforward cousin, the A3.

Mark

[zin1953]

Mark,

Let's take a look at the volumetric dosing "issue": I am firmly in the "Ken Fox School of Shot Pulling" Camp -- i.e.: the following makes total sense to me.

Automatic dosing is a convenience, but using it to actually terminate shots will give substandard results regardless of machine. The reason is that in order for each shot to be the best that it can be, it will need to be terminated individually when it starts to blond. The factors that result in blonding are variable and especially in a low volume home setting, there is not enough opportunity to get those factors all lined up to allow enough "predictability" that you could ever rely on automatic dosing.

I have programmed two of the four buttons available for programming on my Cimbali Junior D1 rotary machine. One of them is used for flushing (which in my case is a constant amount, however this may not apply to your setup), and the other is used for making doubles. I have programmed the "doubles" button to dose the most that I would ever use for a double. 99.75% of the time, I stop these double shots manually. I haven't bothered to program for singles since I never make them.

Programming the shot button(s) has the benefit that if something interrupts your espresso making, you will know that the machine will turn off at some semi-acceptable point. These interruptions include such things as having the phone ring, or having to go to the front door when the doorbell rings. There is at least a chance you will end up with something drinkable in these situations, and at the worst you should avoid coming back to a big mess.

Thus, volumetric dosing is something I am used to with my La Val . . . even though I generally stop it before it stops itself, if you will. For example, I can be steaming milk, hit the "start" button while I'm steaming, finish the milk, and then stop the pump! Bottom line: it's just adjusting to a new routine.

I'm not worried about the electronics "breaking" vis-a-vis a "A3 v. T1" debate. Between the two, I would take a T1 every time.

. . . my 0.02 is to go for the DD if it is that important to you that your spouse be able to use the machine with any degree of success;

OK, I'm confused. My wife is much more likely to use the machine if it DOES have volumetric dosing (i.e.: an automatic) rather than NOT having it (i.e.: a manual).

* * * * *

Let's face it:

Elektra over La Cimbali: boiler size and aesthetics.

Elektra over Vibiemme Double Domo: volumetric dosing; tried-and-true technology (vs. new -- for VBM).

La Cimbali over Elektra: with similar prices, the only reason I can think of to pick the La Cimbali Junior D/T1 over the Elektra T1 is the 15 amp requirement (vs. the Elektra's 20 amp requirement).

La Cimbali over Vibiemme: volumetric dosing; tried-and-true technology (vs new -- for VBM).

Vibiemme over Elektra: $1,000 cheaper; dual boiler technology.

Vibiemme over La Cimbali: $1,000 cheaper; dual boiler technology; aesthetics.

Clearly if the Vibiemme Double Domo would come in a version which had a rotary pump, was plumbed-in, and had volumetric dosing, I wouldn't have posted this question in the first place!

I don't know -- do I throw a dart and pick one, or do I expend more energy thinking about it???

Jason

[shadowfax]

Man, you have it figured out. You know all the advantages, as you say. I feel similarly about the DoubleDomo. Actually, I would have a domobar super if it came in plumbed-in rotary. I heard that it's coming (in HX form) for more money than I would want to spend, but if it were out now, I would seriously be regretting Vetrano.

But, being as there is no DoubleDomo Rotary in sight, it sounds like you know what you want. Get the Elektra! A little rewiring in your house is easy and something that you will forget about in a month. Getting a machine you find unattractive--you see it every morning. You sound like I fee about the Cimbali. It's not ugly, but it's not beautiful. The Elektra is like artwork.

I enjoy looking at my Vetrano every morning, and I know that I would have a lot of buyer's remorse If I had bought something ugly. I knew it the minute that I got my broken Brasilia in the mail. Even if she weren't damaged beyond my repair skills and budget (bent frame and panels), I would have regretted her every morning that I got up to make an espresso. I just didn't find the machine beautiful. I think, for the $3-4000 you have in mind, you need to get something that you really find attractive.

[CafSuperCharged]

It seems to me you are trying to decide between these based on specifications only.
HB/Dan Kehn made the point elsewhere (loosely quoted): you can't and shouldn't.
Dan's main machine is an Elektra?

As to the DD (DB) being new, this is not a valid point at all. All these machines share similar innards when you go down to the vital organs.
With DD being Db, it still will have the E/61 group on a loop with the brew boiler, to keep it at the right temperature. I could even imagine this to be a HX as well. If it isn't, the brew water being at the proper brew temperature, the group will be slightly too cold. If it is actually on a HX, you will have a similar issue as with a single boiler HX.

About La Cimbali, a professional espresso machine repairman said to me they were short on the HX. This would mean you have to run it slightly hotter than other machines for it to be able to do series in a commercial context. It then will have a lot of steam. But, sitting idle it may heat the group quite a lot. Question is if this short HX is an issue, in the home context, and even if it is an issue in the small one mentioned here.

Another thing is, two of the machines are not E/61 group based. E/61 has a form of pre-infusion implemented the others have not. There has been considerable debate on pre-infusion on these HB fora, but IMO no conclusive evidence about the relation between machine spec (pre-infusion) and coffee quality.

About the electronic/volumetric operation. If we consider pre-infusion as a form of pressure (temp?) up-profiling, in Italy, I would see barista do post-infusion or pressure down-profiling. I do that myself as well. In the videos on this site, I see a lot of abrupt switching off. I would put the E/61 lever in the middle position first and after some time, push down the lever completely. You can't do that on an electronic machine - I think.

All reasons to take your grinder and favorite beans, and make a tour along these machines to have tastings. Preferably being able to adjust a few parameters to optimize for your beans and home circumstances.
It's not like you are spending small change and will buy a Synesso or GS/3 in half a year. I would expect.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[luca]

It seems to me you are trying to decide between these based on specifications only.
HB/Dan Kehn made the point elsewhere (loosely quoted): you can't and shouldn't.

Fantastic advice.

If you didn't have a machine at all, I could understand the impetus to make a decision and get something on the bench - risk of making the wrong choice be damned! But you already have a Valentina, don't you? Why hurry? I'm not sure how practical it will be for you, but couldn't you make a few trips to actually check out a few of the contenders? Your experience with the Valentina means that you will know exactly what you want out of a machine and the experience will give you a lot more peace of mind than anything that we could type at you!

Cheers,

Luca

[Dogshot]

OK, I'm confused. My wife is much more likely to use the machine if it DOES have volumetric dosing (i.e.: an automatic) rather than NOT having it (i.e.: a manual).

You know your needs much better than I do. I think of using volumetric dosing for a controlled flush, and for pulling a shot. My wife uses the machine once every month or two. If I were to tell her to use one button to flush if the machine has not been flushed for 5 minutes or more, another button to flush if the machine has not been flushed in 3-5 minutes, and yet another button to pull the shot, I know she would look at me like I was making a joke.

A dual boiler machine instructions are to grind 2 scoops into the pf, pull a few oz to warm up your cup, then lock in the pf and pull the shot (until the flow starts to go blonde). So, I still think that a DB is easier than an HX with volumetric dosing. But if your family is used to using volumetric controls, then you are clearly in good shape to continue in that direction.

Mark

[zin1953]

. . . but couldn't you make a few trips to actually check out a few of the contenders?

I'd love to! If I knew anyone who had one/them . . .

[CafSuperCharged]

Ask a Dutch person to pronounce "WAF" and ask them to tell what they said. That's a dog, barking.
Have you seen that youtube movie of a kid's second birthday party where the parents ask the kid what this and that animal "say"? And then they ask "what does mommy say?" Toddler: "no, no, no."

On topic and serious. I cannot imagine volumetric dosing to be important in a procedure that stops the pump upon blonding. I try to grind-dose and pump at parameters/variables where there is some headroom between switching off the pump and the blonding. And I am not overdosing the way most of you do in the US according to some on this forum. Also I cannot imagine the wife would find all those little knobs a transparent user interface. To me the electronics add components I cannot repair, raise the price and add complexity or chances of repair. Someone, in one of these HB threads, wrote he needed the electronics because it enabled him to work in parallel without worrying on the machine to be stopped. After some debate he then said he would stop the machine upon blonding, usually before the electronics would stop automatically. This tells me two things. You do not need the electronics and your settings grind/grind volume/pour time do not match the beans you are using and the intended cup of espresso you want.

And then the WAF. Determine you wife's preferred learning mode: visual, auditive, kinesthetic. Next determine her preferred approach to learning via that channel: mental model (deep reasoning), fumbling (trial and error, tell me nothing and I will discover), bookworm (give me precise definitions, yes but ... , I am not interested in an imaginary debate between scientists X, Y and Z), cookbook (give me the ingredients - shopping list - and tell me the simple steps of the process).
Given the way we debate in these fora, I would assume most of us are at least strong in the auditive/visual, however our delicate coffee tastes imply well developed kinesthetics as well. We may prefer to approach a learning process through the auditive channel. If the wife has visual preference (which she probably has) then this is not going to work. Another thing is we may approach the whole thing from the deep reasoning perspective (sic) and the wife may want cookbook. This is not meant pejorative and I am not saying this is always the case, just examples. And within one person it varies depending on context. Regarding your children's health your wife may be the deep reasoning type and you, sirs, the cookbook ones.
It starts with motivation. If she does not discern an exceptional espresso from a good one, forget it. My wife discerns the excellent ones from the less excellent ones, but does not mind to even drink a lousy espresso - as long as it is not a serious sink shot. She just is not interested in the hassle. She will listen to a simple audio thing with improvised FM antenna that sounds like reasonable AM, yet will ask me "did you change anything to your stereo - it sounds better?" and I tell her "yes dear, the AC leads." And she will go back to that "thing" and enjoy her "music" (I could not even listen to that on my own set).
However, I still have been able to, patiently, show and tell my wife, inviting her to stand by me when I do her coffee, for cosiness, because the espresso might be too cold, what I am doing, one thing per day, casually, in the ritual, and how that translates into the excellent espresso in her cup.
And she has done a few herself, when I was gone. And from the residual crema in the cups she used I could tell they must have been pretty good.
My new work project location does not allow my simple pod espresso machine in my office and now it sits next to the main one at home. My wife uses it because it is simpler. Yes, the coffee is not as good, she says, but then again never as bad as some of the less good ones. That machine has no real estate to heat cups. She flushes some water into the cup - enough, accidentally, to get the machine to the right temperature - and does a lungo.
Herein could lie a trick (plus, pro) for a dual boiler machine...

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

WAF: wife acceptance factor

[trakt140]

In Germany you can order the Vibiemme with a rotary pump that can be plumbed-in:

http://www.systermann.de/shop_sId...artgruppe=Vibiemme

They also have some pictures of it here:

http://www.systermann.de/galerie

[zin1953]

Thank, Tim! Great pictures.

For those who have yet to look, there are internal photos of both Vibiemme Domo models (vibe/pourover and rotary/plumbed). There are seven photos, three for the tank, and four for the plumbed-in model. Rather than re-posting them here, the site (again) is: http://www.systermann.de/galerie. Clicking on each thumbnail will blow up the photo to a really good size/resolution.

Thanks again, Tim.

Cheers,
Jason

[cannonfodder]

If you want to fly to the other side of the country you can play with two of your three options at my house.

I have the A3 and Domobar Super. I like the Domobar Super very much but for pure cup character the Elektra still reigns supreme. It also rules the roost for steaming power of any machine I have used short of a 220V multi group box. I would like to wax poetic about the virtues of all these machines but you already know them. Having said that, let me say that I own an Elektra A3 as my primary machine at home, I have a Domobar Super in the office for my at work espresso. However, I have to back that up with saying I have never used the Cimbali so I cannot comment on it, but when I was looking, the A3 and DT1 were my two options but VBM did not have much of a presence in the market at the time either.

[CafSuperCharged]

I'd like to point to another thread getting-started-with-vibiemme-doubledomo-super-t6698-20.html#p79790 where the new Dual Boiler VBM is discussed.

The initial response proves again, you should not decide based on specs (or maybe you should?)

Reading into the specs as they seep through, I would say, one BIG HX boiler was replaced by a small brew boiler and small steam boiler. The other forum did not decide which of the two small one is petite.
Initial response, you could do one or two cappuccinos and the steam pressure drops too much for the next one.

If you go back to the specs: the machine was built starting with a large water tank and for space reasons a vibration pump. Next they fitted in two boilers. Necessarily smaller than the single big one in the Super.
Subsequently, they did a plumb in version where the water tank is replace by a rotary pump (and a lot of space - liters - remains unused).

The steam insufficiency reported by two users new to the machine, it may prove the design is very stable for espresso, but does not deliver infinite amounts of steam.
BTW. Could it be the US imports a 110V version that has less Watts power in the steam boiler in order to stay under the 15A you from over there mention a lot? And a 220V version would just have more Watts to keep the steam boiler under pressure for whatever amounts of steam? If so, this is a serious design issue with an Italian company that probably designed this machine with the US market in mind first.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[zin1953]

Initial response, you could do one or two cappuccinos and the steam pressure drops too much for the next one . . . .

The steam insufficiency reported by two users new to the machine, it may prove the design is very stable for espresso, but does not deliver infinite amounts of steam . . .

I understand, and that has -- for now -- moved the Elektra back to the top of my list (again).

* * * * *

I know, I know . . . I just need to do myself what I have have told several other "newbies" to do:

Finally, there will always be one more piece of information to collect, one more new machine coming out soon that you could possible wait for. Trying to collect every tidbit of information will drive you crazy, and waiting for the next model will prevent you for ever taking the plunge. Trust me: we have all been on information overload at some point in our own buying process(es) of finding the right machine.

Again, each of these machines is a worthwhile choice, and you'll be happy with it for years to come!
That's why at some point you just have to take the information you have, check your gut (logically what suits your needs), check your heart (aesthetically, what looks the best -- you're going to have to live with it in your home), and go for it -- make the decision, don't look back, and enjoy the best cappuccino you're ever made!

But I would like to know more about the boilers in the VBM . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[cannonfodder]

The bench test doubledomo will not arrive until the end of next month so I can neither confirm nor deny any of the questions about the double boiler. Having said that, I would still think the steam boiler would provide ample power unless the pressurestat was set low. That is beauty of a dedicated steam boiler, you can crank up the pressure for steaming. Something that would kill a heat exchanger.

[Matthew Brinski]

That is beauty of a dedicated steam boiler, you can crank up the pressure for steaming. Something that would kill a heat exchanger.

It's not going to kill a heat exchanger if the HX boiler is significantly bigger than the steam boiler of the competing machine. I understand what your saying regarding the ability to run the steam boiler hotter, but you can only do so much with the physical properties that are available to work with (water volume, steam volume, heat element wattage / voltage drop, etc.). If you have a boiler the size of a thimble running at an amazing 5.0 bar, it won't provide adequate steam. I know that's an extreme example.

I have wondered about the apparently small steam boiler size and its performance ever since seeing pics of the prototype machine from the HOST Expo via Terry Z's Flickr stream. I have been actually waiting for the HB review of this machine to see what you guys find out regarding steaming ability. My cynical side presumes it will fall short. I'm looking forward to your findings, and I hope I'm wrong.

Based on early opinion's and available specs, this seems to actually be a better option to me:

hx-heaven-or-1-boiler-t6758.html

...or sticking with the HX with the GH TC.

[cannonfodder]

It's not going to kill a heat exchanger if the HX boiler is significantly bigger than the steam boiler of the competing machine. I understand what your saying regarding the ability to run the steam boiler hotter, but you can only do so much with the physical properties that are available to work with (water volume, steam volume, heat element wattage / voltage drop, etc.). If you have a boiler the size of a thimble running at an amazing 5.0 bar, it won't provide adequate steam. I know that's an extreme example.

No arguments from me. There is a point where to small is too small. Hopefully the low steam reports are just byproducts of low pressurestats. The comment about killing a heat exchanger was to reference not the physical death of the machine, but the brew temperature. A super high pressure setting on a heat exchanger boiler would require an enormous flush and speed the recovery. Depending on the machine, that flush may drain way too much from the reservoir. An unrestricted thermosiphon with a 1.5 bar pstat setting would get rocket hot and take forever to flush down to brew temperature. Then the recovery would be so fast you may end up cooking the shot before it finished.

[networkcrasher]

Mine is currently reading ~1.5. I spoke with Jim earlier and I'm going to try and bump it up a bit to 1.6 and see how it performs. He's not sure what the pressure relief valve is set at - could be 2 or 2.5bar. We'll see how it goes tonight!

[cannonfodder]

The pressure release valve will be marked. There will be a stamp on the valve, or a small tag attached to it with a temperature on it. Take that temperature, convert it to bars and you have your safety pop point.