Opinions of built-in espresso machines like Miele, Bosch, Thermador and Dacor

[happypete]

I am trying to find an American forum or opinion resource for plumbed and built-in espresso machines. I can find every machine, some of which I have owned, in regards to those great counter machines. Jura has always been my favorite. But, I want something built it. Currently, I have a Dacor. But, what are some of the others and how do user's feel about the quality (i.e. the temperature, crema, and taste)? I cannot find any discussions on these units: Miele, Bosch, Thermador and Dacor--specifically how consumer's like/or dislike these units. Anyone out there know of a resource comparing units or discussing these units? Thanks!

[Ken Fox]

I am trying to find an American forum or opinion resource for plumbed and built-in espresso machines. I can find every machine, some of which I have owned, in regards to those great counter machines. Jura has always been my favorite. But, I want something built it. Currently, I have a Dacor. But, what are some of the others and how do user's feel about the quality (i.e. the temperature, crema, and taste)? I cannot find any discussions on these units: Miele, Bosch, Thermador and Dacor--specifically how consumer's like/or dislike these units. Anyone out there know of a resource comparing units or discussing these units? Thanks!

You are asking about kitchen-friendly superautomatic espresso machines. In all honesty, this website is an enthusiast website, and espresso enthusiasts don't use superautomatic machines. There will be very few people here who have any firsthand experience with superautomatics, other than maybe the unfortunate necessity to buy coffee from a Starbucks in an airport concourse at 5am at the beginning of a trip.

In general, a superautomatic will produce a mediocre beverage that is, however, better than what you might get from a poorly trained operator.

As to the differences between these various brands, I would assume that many machines bearing these brand names are in fact the exact same equipment behind the facade. To my knowledge, few of these high end kitchen appliance makers actually make espresso equipment, so most of it is going to be rebranded machines made by Jura, Saeco, and maybe Franke. If you do some research on the internet you may be able to figure out which models are made by which manufacturers, and perhaps also to determine which have been the most reliable. I doubt you will find any in depth evaluations by real coffee enthusiasts, because these sorts of machines by their very nature would not appeal to very many people who are really "into" coffee.

ken

[zarko]

I've had a chance to drink a coffee from Miele built-in "espresso machine".
Machine was not plumbed it was just built in. You need to add water manually like with any other super automatic machine.
Machine was unable to produce anything similar to espresso. Basically it produces filter coffee on demand.
Coffee was so bad that I was unable to drink it. Beans were not the problem I've tried some known good beans and same thing happened.
Zarko

[happypete]

Neither response was what I would have expected from this forum. I would presume experts would educate and motivate, not embarrass someone learning about the intricacies of coffee/espresso. I have a friend that is a Master of Wine candidate. He would never discuss wine with such impetuous language when trying to express his passion of wine and at the same time, trying to lead a person "just learning" down a "better" path. And by the way, super automatics are NOT all required to have water added manually. My current machine is plumbed. Wonder what else you may be remiss in mentioning? Doesn't matter. I'm interested in learning from others passionate in teaching. Reply if either of you feel the need to put me in my "bad coffee" drinking place again. Whatever.

[HB]

Neither response was what I would have expected from this forum. I would presume experts would educate and motivate, not embarrass someone learning about the intricacies of coffee/espresso.

I don't think it was anyone's intent to embarrass, but Ken's right, few on this forum have experience with super-automatics. There are some threads on the topic, for example:

• Super-Automatic vs Automatic vs Semi
• Need help choosing super-auto espresso machine
• Super-automatic espresso machine purchasing advice

I've written about my limited experience:

• Making the case against super-automatics
• Making the case for super-automatic espresso machines (again)
• Like kissing your sister

Super automatics are great for convenience, but they are not a great platform from which to explore espresso. Jim sums it up:

Super-autos, at the current state of the art, make highly acceptable "push-button" coffee beverages. But these beverages fall very short when compared to either espresso (on body and concentration) or to well brewed regular coffee. Nobody, nowhere, never, has said "WOW!" when drinking anything from these contraptions.

A lot of R & D money is being thrown at this technology, so this may change. I'll start getting interested when somebody does say "wow."

Recently I wrote about Nespresso capsules. Although they fall short of what a competent home barista can produce, they are better than the super-auto drinks I've sampled. For those who prize convenience and don't mind the per-drink cost, I think they'll be the next big thing in the US.

[DigMe]

happypete,

I mostly listen here rather than advise and I can't advise you on this subject but I must say that I've read and reread the responses to your question and I'm completely puzzled as to why you feel anyone is trying to embarrass you. All I see are a couple of people summing up the thoughts on these machines that are pretty much the majority opinion on any enthusiast coffee site. If you find it embarrassing that you weren't aware of those opinions among coffee enthusiasts then that cannot be helped on our end. I hope that you'll reread it once you have cooled off a bit and see that the intent of the responses was not to embarrass. Then stick around a while and learn something about coffee. This is a great place for that.

brad

[happypete]

Thank you. Your comments are exactly what I was seeking when I signed up and began this process of learning. I appreciate your knowledgeable comments and look forward to reading and learning more about a topic that I did not originally know-- was so debatable. Baby steps for me, but with more basic information I, too may be able to make better decisions, which was my original intent. All the best, and again, thank you!

[ByronA]

Good Afternoon happypete,

I was very seriously considering a Miele built-in during the last year, in fact I drooled at a few models I saw in a local appliance store. I had the salesman explain how they worked, the differences between them, and poured some samples. They come in several options such as plumbed in, pour-over, pods, and coffee bean. Like I said, I was very serious about it...until I had my first 'god shot'! Once I had that, there was no more thought about a super-automatic. The Miele looks great in a modern kitchen, but there are many other machines in that price range that look great too, they just take a little counter space.

In my opinion, if you decide to purchase another super-automatic, then I recommend you do not experiment with higher end coffee shops. The reason I say this, is that if you ever end up having a 'god shot' at one of those locals, you will never be satisfied again with your super-automatic. Admittedly, before this post, you probably would have figured that only a high end coffee shop could accomplish this, but now you know (my fault, I'm sorry ) that it is possible to get these shots at home. In fact, that is where you are most likely to get them!

It doesn't take long before a home enthusiast is getting better results than nearly all the coffee shops around. That is why these machines are getting so popular! The coffeeshops that produce exceptional results are very rare, and I bet, even at these places, the results are dependant on the barista pouring the shot.

If you are still interested in a super-automatic machine after looking around, I recommend you purchase a super-automatic pod machine. The reason I suggest this, is due to maintenance. Super-automatic bean machines have a lot to do mechanically. They have to grind the coffee, measure it, tamp it, run controlled temperature water through it, and then dispose of the grinds. Because there is so much dependance on mechanical parts, they are expensive to build, and need constant maintenance. Even with regular maintenance, they are more prone to failure, which then results in service bills, and the need to substitute something else while waiting for repairs. Pods, require much less robotics, therefore would be more reliable.

Just my opinion...

[happypete]

You make a great point. One that I have voiced many times over the years. I travel for my business. I have lived in Switzerland--living in Italy from time to time, too. Yes, a great barista is hard to find--at least for me. I don't know how to find the high end places and the ones that have marketed themselves as such, have usually been a disappointment. I hope someday, I can find great resources for a great espresso when I am traveling, because it is rare to find a great one on the road. I am picky about beans (IMO) and will not consume most drinks I purchase after taking the first sip--even with a bean that I prefer--sometimes it just doesn't taste right. Often when in my Italian friends and my Swiss friends homes--they had good counter machines. Never did any of these machines produce the crema found in a great bar. I accepted this. Once repatriating to the US, I figured, if I couldn't get a great espresso out and about, then I could accept a good shot at home--so I purchased a Jura. It worked for me. It continues to work for me. I am busy and do not have the time to become an expert. I appreciate the people that do taste the nuances and subtleties and insist on demanding a great experience. But, I am overwhelmed by so much of the information from this web site. Not a complaint, just amazed about how much there is to know and understand. Which is why I thought some might have some great suggestions. Your insight will be useful as I travel this road to a good espresso.

I have been disappointed with the super automatics and the temperature of the end product. That is essentially what I was wanting to hear from others--my Dacor only puts out an espresso at 160F. That is disappointing after spending nearly $4,000 and having it built into my kitchen. I will be buying another unit, for ease and a "good" (IMO-again!) espresso, but I just don't want to make the same costly mistake. It's hard to find boiler information on these built in units...what materials are used and what output temperatures can be expected.

Lastly, I read on some of these forums that pods weren't as great a quality as a good bean--ground precisely. But, do you not concur? I would presume they are ground to a perfect consistency to help in extraction. Any elaboration? Thanks. This helps! Regards,

[roadman]

Often when in my Italian friends and my Swiss friends homes--they had good counter machines. Never did any of these machines produce the crema found in a great bar.

In Switzerland many people have gorgeous looking machines and not the faintest clue how to use them. And fresh beans freshly ground -- fuggetaboutit! Too expensive, too much trouble, just get some beans at the Migros and God only knows how many months ago they've been roasted. I've just about given up trying to spread the word here.

Honestly, doing good espresso isn't that hard with fresh beans, a good grinder and a decent espresso machine. Pulling "godshots" one the other hand is much tougher and requires a certain amount of dedication.

Jon

[ByronA]

And it helps when the moon, the sun, and the stars are all lined up!

Seriously though, with decent equipment (cheaper than a good quality Superautomatic) every now and then, you will get one. It just makes the pursuit of the elusive "god shot" that much more satisfying when acheived. I had one last week! Wish I could repeat it!

Regards,
Byron

BTW, happypete, you are right about the pods, however here we are talking about superautomatics, and by having the bean already in a pod, it is one less variable to worry about. Please note though, I would never consider pods on an automatic, semi-automatic, or manual machine. I really do want a shot at the "god shots"!

[stevendouglas]

Pete,

A couple of things:

1. Espresso on the road: Take a look at this site http://www.espressomap.com. It lists all of the good espresso shops on a U.S. map. You can search by city, zip, etc. I've used it a few times and been impressed by the shops. I believe he goes to all of the shops that are represented. None in Chattanoga (near where I grew up) but it lists Octane in Atlanta. It also gives the address and phone.

2. I started this journey two years ago looking for a super-automatic (a Jura). I didn't think I had time to master the details. However, I talked to both Jim (1st-Line), Chris (Chris' Coffee), and Dan (HB Founder) who steered me down the path of prosumer machines. It's really not that difficult or time consuming to make espressos and cappucinnos that are better than 99% of coffee shops. It takes me 5 minutes to make a cap for me and my wife in the morning, and they're heavenly. I talked my brother into buying a Vetrano and he's fond of saying, "Everyday, I make an espresso and think, 'The richest men in the world don't drink coffee this good.'" I think he's right.

Certainly, the coffee is extraordinary, however, for me, it's more about the journey. I enjoy everything about it - coffee beans, blends, espresso extraction, roasting, temperature profiles (roaster, espresso machine), different machines, different grinders, pros, cons, rants, and raves. As my wife says, it's the source of endless entertainment.

For the price of a good super-automatic, I bought the Elektra A3 and a Mazzer Mini-E grinder and launched a lifetime of exploration.

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the super-automatics, so I realize this is unresponsive to your question.

You might think of picking up a used Silvia for $300-400 and a good grinder (see the endless forum discussions on this, but you can get a good one for around $200), so for under $600, you could explore your own. If you decide it's too much work or not worth the effort, you wouldn't really be out a lot. The used Silvia and grinder should sell quickly on Craig's List for close to the price you paid for them. You wouldn't be out much if you tried this, and you could keep your Dacor in the interim.

Good luck,
Steve

[ByronA]

Hi again happypete,

Just a thought after I read the last post, and then re-read your last post. If you really want a superautomatic machine, you should consider a web search, and then, once you have a short list of what you want, arrange for some product sampling sessions. Bring your own beans (and for the best taste, beans that have been roasted no more that a week before) and take notes. Ask about maintenance, service plans, and find out who makes the innards. These are all very important points from a reliability point of view.

If they won't let you sample the machines, cross that merchant from your list. At $4000 a pop, you have the right to test it out! Somehow though, I don't think you will find too much on superautomatics here. It is sort of like asking the opinion about luxury sedans from a group of sports car buffs. They are going to tell you to forget about the sedan, you haven't lived until you have taken a sharp curved road while accelerating at high speeds! Or asking a snowboarder what kind of downhill skiis are best! Or...you get the picture.

[jesawdy]

You might think of picking up a used Silvia for $300-400 and a good grinder (see the endless forum discussions on this, but you can get a good one for around $200), so for under $600, you could explore your own. If you decide it's too much work or not worth the effort, you wouldn't really be out a lot. The used Silvia and grinder should sell quickly on Craig's List for close to the price you paid for them. You wouldn't be out much if you tried this, and you could keep your Dacor in the interim.

With all due respect to you, Steven, and to the Rancilio Silvia... given the OP's budget, I feel he would be better served to consider your kit (the A3 and the Mini E) or similar higher end equipment. The Silvia can be a frustrating machine. While I have not used it, Dan's and Dave's (cannonfodder's) accounts of the A3 give it high marks for both exceptional espresso and ease of use/forgiveness.

To the OP, you sound as if you would enjoy "exceptional espresso". My impressions of built-in superautomatics is that they are overpriced, repackaged countertop machines in a fancy dress that have a limited support network, vendor backing or expertise. I would hope there is an exception to my perception.

Hang out here a bit and have a read. Check out the Recommended Reading and the Reviews. The espresso bug might bite you. While you can get great espresso from lesser kit, a good grinder (or better still perhaps a "Titan" grinder) and a plumbed high end espresso machine doesn't have to take a lot of time to use every morning. No, it's never as simple as pressing a button, but is 5 minutes too much to ask?

[stevendouglas]

With all due respect to you, Steven, and to the Rancilio Silvia... given the OP's budget, I feel he would be better served to consider your kit (the A3 and the Mini E) or similar higher end equipment. The Silvia can be a frustrating machine. While I have not used it, Dan's and Dave's (cannonfodder's) accounts of the A3 give it high marks for both exceptional espresso and ease of use/forgiveness.

I was trying to "educate and motivate."

Actually, I was thinking that what started me down this road was Mark Prince's review of the Jura Capresso S9 http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews/detailed/juracapressos9. He rates this at the top of the super-automatic market and notes that it beats Franke super-automatic, even though the latter is twice the price. However, what really caught my attention were these comments:

And the fact is, today's crop of super automatics can produce a better shot of espresso than maybe 50%, 60% of the cafes in North America. And some maybe can even beat the lower 80% of cafes out there in the wild.

...the Jura-Capresso S9 has become our standard bearer benchmark for consumer super automatics. As such, our rating at the end of the review reflects how it rates against other super automatics. If the rating seems a bit high, keep this in mind - against a Rancilio Silvia, or an Isomac Tea, it'd probably garner a 4 or 5.

And so, I started looking at the Silvia...which led me to Dan's review of the Silvia...which led me to a couple of conversations with Jim (1st-Line) and Chris (Chris' Coffee)...which led to many emails to Dan, who had just finished his review of the Elektra A3..and the rest, as they say, is history!

I completely agree that the A3/Mini-E (or other grinder) is a great set up and much preferred to the Silvia. I've never used the Silvia, but the A3 is a consistent top performer and the cost of this set up is about the same as (actually less than) the Super-Autos being considered. (BTW, I didn't know that Thermador made a super-automatic built in. I love their stoves, and almost bought one...but alas, I digress.)

However, if Pete wants to test the waters without making a huge committment (and giving up on the built in Super-Automatic) then the Silvia might be a place to start. I think the espresso quality from the Silvia/Rockey (or similar grinder) with a modest amount of self-training, will exceed that of virtually any Super-Automatic.

Of course, Pete's primary concern is convenience. I thought the Silvia/good grinder combination allows him to see if it really is THAT much effort, without giving up on a built in Super-Automatic. Only two possible outcomes, and neither so bad.

1. He decides that it's too much work...sell the Silvia/grinder and launch the Super-Auto.

2. He decides that exceptional espresso is worth the 5 minutes of effort (and a few weeks of learning)...sell the silvia/grinder and get an Elektra A3 / titan-type grinder. Knowing that anything he can do with a Silvia/grinder combo, he can do more consistently with greater ease using the A3/titan grinder. I have absolutely no regrets with, or any desire to upgrade from, the A3.

[Ken Fox]

And so, I started looking at the Silvia...which led me to Dan's review of the Silvia...which led me to a couple of conversations with Jim (1st-Line) and Chris (Chris' Coffee)...which led to many emails to Dan, who had just finished his review of the Elektra A3..and the rest, as they say, is history!

I completely agree that the A3/Mini-E (or other grinder) is a great set up and much preferred to the Silvia. I've never used the Silvia, but the A3 is a consistent top performer and the cost of this set up is about the same as (actually less than) the Super-Autos being considered. (BTW, I didn't know that Thermador made a super-automatic built in. I love their stoves, and almost bought one...but alas, I digress.)

However, if Pete wants to test the waters without making a huge committment (and giving up on the built in Super-Automatic) then the Silvia might be a place to start. I think the espresso quality from the Silvia/Rockey (or similar grinder) with a modest amount of self-training, will exceed that of virtually any Super-Automatic.

Of course, Pete's primary concern is convenience. I thought the Silvia/good grinder combination allows him to see if it really is THAT much effort, without giving up on a built in Super-Automatic. Only two possible outcomes, and neither so bad.

etc.etc.etc.

Why are we limiting ourselves like this? I suggest that the gentleman buy a one bag Dietrich roaster with an Agtron analyzer, an LM 3 group GB5, and two Roburs. He can then enroll his butler in the Roaster's Guild and that Barista academy in Seattle (or is it Portland; I forget), buy all the remaining bags of the various COE coffees, the best organic dairy in his state, and this should take care of his espresso related needs for the near term.

ken

[stevendouglas]

Why are we limiting ourselves like this? I suggest that the gentleman buy a one bag Dietrich roaster with an Agtron analyzer, an LM 3 group GB5, and two Roburs. He can then enroll his butler in the Roaster's Guild and that Barista academy in Seattle (or is it Portland; I forget), buy all the remaining bags of the various COE coffees, the best organic dairy in his state, and this should take care of his espresso related needs for the near term.

ken

I think the Agtron analyzer is overkill, but what do I know?

[zin1953]

Neither response was what I would have expected from this forum. I would presume experts would educate and motivate, not embarrass someone learning about the intricacies of coffee/espresso. I have a friend that is a Master of Wine candidate. He would never discuss wine with such impetuous language when trying to express his passion of wine and at the same time, trying to lead a person "just learning" down a "better" path. And by the way, super automatics are NOT all required to have water added manually. My current machine is plumbed. Wonder what else you may be remiss in mentioning? Doesn't matter. I'm interested in learning from others passionate in teaching. Reply if either of you feel the need to put me in my "bad coffee" drinking place again. Whatever.

OK, not meaning to pile on, but . . .

I saw your thread early this morning, when only Ken Fox had replied. He said pretty much what I would have said -- in his own words, of course, not mine. But I've spent 35 years in the wine trade -- as a retail, importer, wine writer, judge, and in production -- and I'm sure my words would be different than those your friend might choose. (I wish him luck on his MW.) All I can say is that I've read and re-read Ken's post, and that "zarko," and I can't really find anything that was said to intentionally embarass. Ken may be a bit blunt from time to time, but few on this forum have taught me more.

All that aside, however, several of my friends have super-autos, and even they admit the espresso I serve them is heads and shoulders above what they serve to me in terms of quality, flavor, complexity, etc. I've yet to have any espresso from a super-auto that I thought exceeded the level of "good," and many failed to achieve that level of quality. Even as a relative "newbie" (in terms of "serious" espresso; I've only been doing this for a little over two years), my espresso, capps, and lattes at home are far better than the super-autos -- "very good" is the consistent minimum, "excellent" is the norm, and there is the occasional "god shot."

I don't mean this to sound as though I am boasting, as I'm sure I'm no different than the majority of the other people here, but my shots at home are better than 99.99% of the espresso I've found in restaurants in and around the San Francisco Bay Area, and probably 90% of the coffee houses/espresso cafes I know.

The way I look at it, super-autos are to manual and semi-auto espresso machines the way an electric percolator is to a French Press. The former are both easier to use, and require little-to-no work from the consumer. The latter do take some work from the consumer, but the quality is so much greater that the small effort one needs to make is paid back in proverbial spades.

I, too, think you would be much better served by spending less than a super-automatic on the top-notch machine (La Valentina, Vibiemme, Elektra, Cimbali Junior, Vivaldi II, Vetrano, etc.) and a good grinder . . . just my 2¢ -- worth far less (keep the change), and as always, YMMV.

Cheers,
Jason

[Ken Fox]

1. Espresso on the road: Take a look at this site http://www.espressomap.com. It lists all of the good espresso shops on a U.S. map.

even the most cursory view of this site shows that it lists places that are not good, and omits many that are. I would not view this map as anything more than the preferences of the person who produced it. For me, based upon the few areas I am familiar with and the shops that are listed and those that are not -- it would be next to useless.

ken

[zin1953]

Danger! Danger! Warning, Will Robinson -- thread drift approaching!

For me, based upon the few areas I am familiar with and the shops that are listed and those that are not -- it would be next to useless.

Well, having never used espressomap.com, I thought I'd check it out. I mean, it sounds like a good idea, right?

I have to say that -- while I can't argue with the two (2) places "marked" in San Francisco (Blue Bottle and Ritual), there is apparently zero places in Berkeley, Oakland and the entire East Bay where one can get espresso. (You'd think he'd at least have marked my house!) The same is true for Santa Cruz and the entire Monterey Bay area . . . zero, zip, zilch, nada. So . . . I think I'll pass on the idea of bookmarking it.

Cheers,
Jason