Opinions of built-in espresso machines like Miele, Bosch, Thermador and Dacor - Page 2

[cannonfodder]

My experience with the entry level machines is more limited than others, but a general observation I have made over time is as follows.

Beginner espresso machines are not, pro espresso machines are not. By that I mean you need to have near pro skills to use an entry level machine while a beginner can easily pull shots on a pro machine. In my opinion, what you are paying for in a 'high end' espresso machine is the machine's ability to reproduce a shot with ease and consistency. An entry level machine and grinder need constant tweaks and adjustments to reproduce the same shot two times. Simply reading a thread on the Silvia temperature surfing voodoo is enough to frighten even me. In stark comparison the routine on my A3 is blissfully simple and the $8K GS3 even simpler than that. Both entry and pro level machines will produce good shots, but how much work do you want to go through to pull that shot? I want to enjoy espresso making and not have it become a chore.

[stevendouglas]

even the most cursory view of this site shows that it lists places that are not good, and omits many that are. I would not view this map as anything more than the preferences of the person who produced it. For me, based upon the few areas I am familiar with and the shops that are listed and those that are not -- it would be next to useless.

ken

I'm sure I was too broad in saying that it listed "all of the good espresso shops on a U.S. map." A disclaimer is in order:

EVERY person will not necessarily like EVERY espresso from EVERY barista at EVERY coffee shop listed. Moreover, it's undisputed that one person could not possibly list EVERY good espresso shop or house with a competent home barista. Whew! Thanks for catching that Ken, you're a lifesaver!

That said, http://www.espressomap.com is still better than hiring a blind monkey to throw darts at a map if you traveling to an unfamiliar city. For example, I was in Portland this weekend and found (in addition to others) four Stumptown locations, Ristretto, and Crema Coffee & Bakery (the latter two were recommended by a Stumptown Barista, although I didn't go to either).

Ken - Do you have any constructive suggestions for someone who frequently travels to unfamiliar cities?

[Ken Fox]

I'm sure I was too broad in saying that it listed "all of the good espresso shops on a U.S. map."

That said, http://www.espressomap.com is still better than hiring a blind monkey to throw darts at a map if you traveling to an unfamiliar city. For example, I was in Portland this weekend and found (in addition to others) four Stumptown locations, Ristretto, and Crema Coffee & Bakery (the latter two were recommended by a Stumptown Barista, although I didn't go to either).

Ken - Do you have any constructive suggestions for someone who frequently travels to unfamiliar cities?

I have heard nothing but positive things about Stumptown and was not referring to them. If I was more specific, I would be pointing out a chain of places in a distant city, that uses really awful coffee. Since I have met and socialized with at least one person from that chain, and I don't want to be rude, I'll be no more specific. Anyone from that town who is into coffee knows that this particular chain sucks. And, just to name a couple of other places, there is no mention of Barry Jarrett's or Bernie Digman's places (in Illinois and New Mexico) and I'd be astonished if they don't merit inclusion. Since both are active online personnas, the maker of that map can't reasonably plead ignorance. If you want a REALLY memorable experience, going to a place like Bernie's or Barry's would probably result in a tour of the roasting facility and some down to earth conversation with the owner. Compared to an anonymous visit to a much heralded marquee cafe, I'd take the Bernie/Barry visit 100% of the time. But then, that is just me.

On my last trip to Vancouver, BC, occasional forum participant Rick Knowlan and I visited several cafes. Our most remarkable and memorable visit, however, was to a cafe and roasting operation I'd never heard of that turns out to produce some really exceptional coffee. The owner was so engaging that we could barely extract ourselves from the facility after more than an hour; he just didn't want to let us get out of there! This is the sort of stuff that memorable out of town visits are made of, much more so (for me) than looking at some map and having a random espresso after waiting in a long line at some much touted cafe (even if good). Rick found the place after reading a post on coffeegeek.

My suggestion would be that when you are contemplating a visit to a distant city, to post a question on one of the internet coffee venues, such as a regional forum on CG, or in the knockbox forum here on HB. You should get very up-to-date recommendations, from the sorts of people who probably pay the most attention, your fellow online forum participants.

ken

[stevendouglas]

Compared to an anonymous visit to a much heralded marquee cafe, I'd take the Bernie/Barry visit 100% of the time. But then, that is just me.

...looking at some map and having a random espresso after waiting in a long line at some much touted cafe (even if good).

For the record, I've been to three of the "much heralded marquee cafes" listed on the site, and haven't had to wait in a long line. Why do you believe that you have to wait in a long line? Did you have a bad experience once?

I completely agree that there are other places to visit that provide an "espresso vacation" experience. I said as much in my response

Moreover, it's undisputed that one person could not possibly list EVERY good espresso shop or house with a competent home barista.

I believe it was his intent to list the places he'd been and enjoyed. I, for one, appreciate his effort.

I would certainly prefer to visit Bernie's in NM. I even looked up his place in NM (after his post on another thread) to see if I could get there during a trip to Phoenix or Albuquerque. That sounds like a lot of fun and I'm certain that I would enjoy the experience and meeting Bernie.

However, would you agree that it is possible for another person to like something that you don't or does that make him or her an incompetent fool? It doesn't seem as though you like anything that you don't own, any method that you don't use, or any place that you don't frequent...heck, you don't even like some of the things you own, e.g., Compak grinder.

[zin1953]

On my last trip to Vancouver, BC, occasional forum participant Rick Knowlan and I visited several cafes. Our most remarkable and memorable visit, however, was to a cafe and roasting operation I'd never heard of that turns out to produce some really exceptional coffee.

As someone who finds themselves in Vancouver 2-4x a year, I was wondering if you'd care to name names? ;^)

[Ken Fox]

However, would you agree that it is possible for another person to like something that you don't or does that make him or her an incompetent fool? It doesn't seem as though you like anything that you don't own, any method that you don't use, or any place that you don't frequent...heck, you don't even like some of the things you own, e.g., Compak grinder.

silly comments I see no point in responding to

[Ken Fox]

As someone who finds themselves in Vancouver 2-4x a year, I was wondering if you'd care to name names? ;^)

The roaster I refer to is Milano Roasters. They have an adjacent cafe that is unexceptional, but the roaster is gifted. He does roast a wide variety of coffees some of which are cheap and intended for a type of consumer other than you and me, but his high end stuff is very very good. He was trained by several famous Italian roasters, including the guy who started Torrefazione Italia (long since sold out, first to SBC then to Starbucks, and not the same stuff now by a long shot).

Rick Knowlan did a mini blind tasting of espresso shots made from several marquee roasters vs. the blend he bought at Milano. From what he told me, the Milano blew the others out of the water. I was given a sample from Milano that I took home to Idaho and consumed a few days later. I was so taken by the blend that I had a number of emails back and forth with the roaster about it.

I think it is fair to say that based upon what we sampled in the cafe, neither Rick nor I expected anything much from their coffee, but both of us were very impressed when we played around with it on our own equipment.

ken

[ByronA]

Ahem...gentlemen, what does all this have to do with superautomatic machines?

I have been noticing this more lately. Maybe I am reading more widely now and have just discovered this(middle aged PMS males in green underwear )? Oh...I know... the bills have come in from Christmas! I feel sorry for the OP who is probably getting emailed every time someone posts here with something out of topic, unless he has given up on us.

I read this spat of messages, and then suddenly remembered that I was reading a thread on super automatics.

Maybe I shouldnt say anything and leave this to the moderators, but it was too good an opportunity to use Kens title!

Anyhow...Please proceed...

[HB]

However, would you agree that it is possible for another person to like something that you don't or does that make him or her an incompetent fool?

silly comments I see no point in responding to

I read this spat of messages, and then suddenly remembered that I was reading a thread on super automatics.

Thanks Byron for the lighthearted reminder of the Guidelines for productive discussion, namely guideline #3: Stay on topic.

[happypete]

He is a she.....Happy.....anyway, I've truly enjoyed the rhetoric. I am learning about godshots, superautomatics and the decisions I need to make.....truly I am enjoying this experience. Thank you for you dialogue. And it's helping me learn about espresso. I may not know all the nuances. But, I can learn. You all are inspiring me to learn as much as possible. I appreciate your help and enthusiasm. All the best. By the way, am I the OP? Anyway, take care.

[ByronA]

Sorry about that happypete! I totally didnt know. I am glad though that you are enjoying this experience. I just found this site in August of last year, and lurked for a while before I joined. I read so much my girlfriend started calling me names. But...she does get to enjoy the results, and they keep getting better all the time. And I have been addicted to home espresso (actually cappuccinos) for over 10 years! I just didnt bring it to this level until I experienced my first god shot.

Cheers,

and once again, my sincere apologies for the mix up.

Byron

[jesawdy]

By the way, am I the OP? Anyway, take care.

Yes you are. Explanation below.

OP - [Usenet; common] Abbreviation for "original poster", the originator of a particular thread.

[zin1953]

He is a she.....Happy.....anyway, I've truly enjoyed the rhetoric. I am learning about godshots, superautomatics and the decisions I need to make.....truly I am enjoying this experience. Thank you for you dialogue. And it's helping me learn about espresso. I may not know all the nuances. But, I can learn. You all are inspiring me to learn as much as possible. I appreciate your help and enthusiasm. All the best. By the way, am I the OP? Anyway, take care.

Happy,

This is one of the most informative, friendly, helpful and genteel sites on the internet . . . and even though there may be an occasional off-topic foray that lasts longer than it should (and may, very rarely, seem perhaps a bit petulant).

Welcome to HB!

Cheers,
Jason

[ntwkgestapo]

OK, I've been meaning to "chime in" on this for a while, just been busy!

8-10 years ago I was thinking of getting a superauto system just because, at that time, I was thinking of getting something that "controlled" the variables in espresso making. I wanted something I could just "push a button" and I'd get a decent espresso drink. NOT some "uber" 'spresso, just decent. Well, superautos were expensive! $450 to about $2K (with a few higher...). I looked at the Saeco Vienna/Royal/etc, the Jura/Capresso offerings, etc... ABOUT that time SBux started to deploy SA's in SOME of their sites. The first SBux sites I noticed them in were Phoenix' Skyport (in little kiosks on a couple of the concourses) and one concourse @ Newark airport.. FIRST thing I noticed was the espresso was sour! Regularly sour... This was my FIRST "well, maybe I shouldn't give Starbucks any more of my $$$"... Hmmm, if a big "coffee" company couldn't get a superauto to make acceptable coffee..... Caribou Coffee started using the Franke superautos a bit later (talk about SOUR.... sheesh!) It took SBux about 8 years to fix THAT problem.

I then decided to find a store willing to let me "experiment" with their superauto systems... Starbucks was OK with it (as long as you used THEIR beans!). A few other stores were willing to allow it as well. Experimented with the Starbucks/Saeco Digital Italia, some mid-line Jura/Capresso systems (up to a $2500 Capresso system, don't remember the model ). Using fresh beans, in some cases their beans, sometimes mine... I was unimpressed with the output of the systems and surprised at the "variability" of the espresso...

Well, that shot that down! Took a few years to do this as there, at that time, wasn't a Green Monster closer than about 60 miles away and the stores with the Capressos were 120-180 miles away, so the experiments were sporadic and there was a lot of time in between tests! During this extended testing time, I discovered alt.coffee and a few other sites dedicated to the art of brewing coffee and began my search for good espresso (and just good coffee!). During all this, I went from a Krups "steam toy' espresso machine to pump driven machines a bit "higher" in the espresso making "chain" but still far from good, repeatable systems... Too many variables and little information on how to control them...

Found WholeLatteLove, 1stInCoffee and a few other on-line espresso/coffee equipment retailers and began wandering thru THEIR information on machines, processes, etc... Eventually found ChrisCoffee and 1st-Line as well. REAMS of info began flowing into my poor, overstressed brain. Looked at Gaggia Baby espresso machines (seemed to be the Rancilio Silvia of the day) and at higher end systems as well. Read about this HX type of system (what the heck was that!?!?), read about early "prosumer" dual boiler systems (the Expobar Brewtus was one of them). AH HA! THAT'S what I want! It controls brew temperature and I can steam as well! GREAT! OK, well, there's some issues there... These systems are much larger than where I've got space to put 'em! The Brewtus seemed to be what I'd end up with as it wasn't as wide as the others.... But still, this is $1300 bucks we're talking about here... Let's make sure this is what you want! There were some reported issues with reliability of some of the parts used in the machine, only a single source for purchasing, etc. Let's keep researching. ( I was really tired of buying another machine only to find out it wasn't THAT much better than what it replaced! AND the spouse wasn't really supportive of my "retired" espresso machine collection getting much larger!)

The La Spaziale S1 Vivalidi was a good one, it seemed, but it would overtake the space that I had available in the kitchen. Only had about 23 inches wide.... Began to think about making my OWN! Hmmm... possible, but how much is it gonna cost me AND can I do a better job of controlling variables than the people who've been building these systems for YEARS? Well, if I put the appropriate computer controls in it, yeah, I thought I could! This project is STILL in the "electrons floating around on a hard disk somewhere" stage as I don't get a lot of time to just sit and think on it (and then put the thoughts into a document!)... Also, it's gonna be 'spensive Lucy! (spoken in my best Ricky Ricardo voice!). Packaging would not be much of an issue because I'd have full control over what went where!

OK, STILL want to make better espresso, so I need to 1) work on my technique using my existing equipment and 2) find something that WILL fit where I've got the space and WILL provide me with better control than the equipment I've currently got. OK, let's revisit this HX thingie again... By this time I'd found Home-Barista.com, lurked around for a while, joined the forums and read, read, read.... Learned A LOT from the folks here and DID improve my espresso. Still not HAPPY with it, but it's MUCH better now! Started to look @ the QuickMill stuff from Chris Coffee and the Isomac stuff from 1st-Line (as well as the La Valentina, etc). The VBM Domobar showed up during all this angst and Dan and co here @ HB did a review. The machine WOULD fit in the space I had available. It would DOMINATE the space, but it WOULD fit! OK, started to figure out what I'd need, machine, grinder, bottomless P/F,accessories, etc.. Was looking @ about $2.2-$2.5k for what I felt I'd need...

Was getting ready to "pull the trigger" on this when Whole Latte Love came up with the Gaggia Factory for an unreal price (almost half of it's original price!). Well, to keep a long story from getting any LONGER! I went from a superautomatic system to a manual lever system (only took me about 8 years! ). I would say I couldn't be happier EXCEPT about a week and a half after getting the Gaggia it's heating element died (stuff happens...) and I'm waiting for it's replacement to arrive!

BUT the whole point of this dissertation is that, in MY case, I went from a complex system to just about the simplest system in my journey for espresso. I'm STILL not looking for the ultimate espresso, just good, consistent stuff (and I was getting there with the Gaggia before it broke! [sob, sob...]). Depending on what you're looking for you MAY be quite disappointed in some built-in system (you may NOT be... your money, your choice) but I sure would have been. And the journey is over half the fun of it! I'm sure that my palate will become more discerning and less willing to accept what it now does as I wander forth!

[caeffe]

8-10 years ago I was thinking of getting a superauto system ......
...... I went from a superautomatic system to a manual lever system (only took me about 8 years! ). ......
.......I went from a complex system to just about the simplest system in my journey for espresso. I'm STILL not looking for the ultimate espresso, just good, consistent stuff (and I was getting there with the Gaggia before it broke! [sob, sob...]). ...

Awesome story. 8 years before you took the plunge to a lever? wow!
Good consistent espresso - but easy to do. Are these two mutually exclusive?

I never considered superautos due to their cost and once I researched found about maintenance and output issues. However, I don't know if my palate would have been discerning enough to know. My thought would be that if I was thinking of plunking $$ I would go taste and see what effort it takes to make a good beverage. When I bought my refurbed Estro Vapore at Starbucks 10+ yrs ago whatever came out of it to me was as good or better than what I paid for at Starbucks. But.... it was a chore to use. So I can understand the OPs desire for a superauto. It wasn't until I got a HX (NS Oscar) and a grinder (Maz Major) did I understand that the chore was a actually somewhat of a joy due to the output. Mind you, it's still a chore but somehow the process to me is a way to 'unwind' or start a day. I recently got a lever (LP Europiccola) and find it a joy to use but it takes more time and consistency I can see will take practice.

My thought though is that one of these days (or years) superautos will become the norm, but hopefully it will be at a good price point and above average results. Just look at photography, or even cars for that matter. Ease of use is always a factor from one generation of machine to the next.

Maybe 2010 will be the year of the superauto?

[zin1953]

My thought though is that one of these days (or years) superautos will become the norm, but hopefully it will be at a good price point and above average results . . . Maybe 2010 will be the year of the superauto?

Yeah, I don't disagree. But I'm thinking it won't be 2010 -- too soon. I'm thinking it will around the same time you can walk up to the machine and say, "Tea. Earl Grey. Hot."

[ntwkgestapo]

I would probably STILL be working toward the VBM if the price of the Gaggia hadn't come in so low. During the 8 years I DID SIGNIFICANTLY improve my espresso from the SBux Barista.... Never HAVE gotten it really right ( I suspect a combination of 1) the handle side of the portafilter and 2) I've never been sure of the performance (primarily pressure). I don't get sour shots from the Barista, but getting them with a decent pour has been challenging to say the least. It didn't help that the Barista burr grinder I had couldn't even come CLOSE to grinding fine enough. Shimming the inner burr helped a LOT. I wasn't in that much of a hurry as I figured I could spend the time IMPROVING the handle side of the P/F (and I have! ). Plus I really DIDN'T want to keep buying stuff only to find I wanted better (and chasing after the "It's not ME, it's GOT to be the machine! Get this one, it's BETTER!")... This is NOT to say that I won't want something OTHER than the Gaggia, just that the Gaggia was starting to give me the kinds of espresso I was looking for!

[ByronA]

First, I would like to apologize again to happypete. I meant to tell you what an OP was, but in my fatigue at that time, I forgot. Fortunately, the question got answered.

Due to your reply, I think we may have tweaked a little interest in attempting something besides mediocre results?

It sounds like you have a pretty good budget available for this. That is kind of why I think you might be interested in something besides a super automatic. Anyone who is willing to spend $4000 on an espresso machine must be looking for the best beverage possible. Am I right?

And I suspect you are concerned that it will take a lot of your time to get these results. Well, you can get good results without spending too much time getting there. For me, it has developed into a passion. I dont know why, but something happened to me after that god shot. I would wake up in the morning dreaming of that chocolaty coffee flavour that just exploded in my mouth. I had never had anything like it, and I wanted it again! So, I have been willing to spend a lot of time into getting that.

I could have saved some of that time if I had listened to some of the advice I had gotten, but just wouldnt believe. I know it seems like you really need to buy a super good expensive machine. That isnt true, but it does make it easier. The most important thing you can buy besides freshly roasted coffee is your grinder. This is what will give you the flexibility of changing your grinds based on the age and type of the beans. It will also give you more consistently good results. It will also allow you to dial into whatever specific machine you get with no need to buy another grinder because it just isnt cutting it. That actually saves you money, time, and frustration. Do you want the cool factor as well as a great grinder?

http://www.versalab.com/server/coffee/grinder.html

That is the grinder currently on my wish list.

OK, it isnt cheap at $1200, but it is probably the last one you will need. And it is really cool looking. [edit]Ooops, make that $1550, but perhaps you can get it for less... I dont know. It would still leave you some change for accessories.

As for the machine, you can get something more expensive if you like, but the Vibiemme Domobar is a really cool looking machine, that has great reviews. If you decide you want better, there is always a GS3, but I dont recommend you buying that one until you are convinced you really want it. It is pretty pricey. Anyway, between the M3 and the Vibiemme, you would have an awesome set-up with a little money left over from the $4000 for a good tamper, cups, etc.

Play around with that set-up for a while, and you too can experience a god shot.

Cheers,
Byron

[Ken Fox]

One thing I have noticed as long as I have participated in online forums; forum participants are always eager to spend someone else's money . . .

[stevendouglas]

One thing I have noticed as long as I have participated in online forums; forum participants are always eager to spend someone else's money . . .

If ONLY I had been spending someone else's money!