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One week with the La Marzocco GS3 - Page 4

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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by HB on Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:05 pm

another_jim wrote:In fairness to the GS3, this test is "cooked" towards the E61... So the blend should "fit" his machine to a tee.

Agreed, plus the blend is reasonably temperature tolerant (202F - 204F), which doesn't showcase the GS3's more precise temperature control capabilities. Those who have a penchant for demanding ("primadonna"?) espresso blends would undoubtedly see a more distinct difference.

Dogshot wrote:Dan, I get the sense that you have taken a stance as an HX-advocate in these days of the DB craze.

I am not strongly pro-HX or pro-dual boiler. Both can deliver great results and my goal is to help owners get the best out of each. Some adopt one or the other as "thee answer." In my view, Nature rarely conveniently optimizes things to work best one and only one way.

Dogshot wrote:In your opinion and given this perspective, does the GS3 offer the home-barista much more than the other DB machines like the Brewtus or the S1, and if so, in what ways does the GS3 make things easier/more consistent/better than these machines?

Let's be real... the GS3 easily outperforms the S1 and Brewtus on multiple fronts. Walk-up brew temperature precision, sub-degree temperature adjustability, high forgiveness factor, steaming that blows you away (2.5L boiler running at 1.8 bar). The form factor is superior, it's semi-portable, it's whisper quiet (Brewtus is among the loudest vibe pump machines I've used). And that's only a short list off the top of my head. Chris' conclusion gives more reasons why it's being lauded as one of the baddest espresso machines on the planet.

Ken Fox wrote:I think there needs to be some blind taste testing done on different machine temperature profiles before we get too convinced that there is anything magical about absolutely flat temperature profiles.

Agreed. Like you, I'm very skeptical that Nature arranges things so conveniently. It's more likely that we've optimized blends to the machine's capabilities than the other way around. Since a flat temperature profile is much easier to reproduce, I agree that it makes sense to optimize blends to it (also see related discussion of the mythical flat brew temperature).

RapidCoffee wrote:I'm no espresso machine design engineer. But (off the cuff response): couldn't you quickly and easily reduce the boiler temperature by introducing cool water?

Or automating a thermal flush? I've pretty much maxed out brew temperature reproducibility on an HX using an E61 thermocouple adapter, but it stands to reason that automation could raise that another notch. I think that the PID that I got from Eric includes a 1 amp SSR. In theory, it would not be hard to fully automate an HX cooling flush to any desired temperature, at least for low-volume use.
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Re: Day 1 (continued)

Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by Marshall on Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:17 pm

HB wrote:This machine puts out a beastly amount of heat.


Dan, I assume that "beastly" means even more than the "considerable heat" you reported on the Elektra A3. Heat is of some concern to me, since my home bar has a western exposure that can get a might toasty on summer days in the San Fernando Valley.

Do you have a theory as to why a 1.5 steam boiler and 3.5 litre brew boiler would put out more heat than a 6 litre steam boiler? I had assumed they would be cooler. But, my knowledge of thermodynamics is pretty limited.
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by AndyS on Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:24 pm

RapidCoffee wrote:Re insulating the GS3 boilers:


In that case, why wasn't this state-of-the-art machine designed for optimal thermal stability with insulated boilers


As Sean Lennon mentioned somewhere, insulated brew boilers make the problem of precise temperature control more difficult. It seems paradoxical, but it's true. OTOH, insulating the GS3's steam boiler isn't going to mess up anything.
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Re: Day 1 (continued)

Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by AndyS on Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:29 pm

Marshall wrote:Dan, I assume that "beastly" means even more than the "considerable heat" you reported on the Elektra A3.


Perhaps not, perhaps "beastly" means the same or less than "considerable." :-)

Marshall wrote:Do you have a theory as to why a 1.5 steam boiler and 3.5 litre brew boiler would put out more heat


You have the boiler sizes reversed. Despite that, I have no theory; I'm waiting for Dan to tame that beast.
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Re: Day 1 (continued)

Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by HB on Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:46 pm

Marshall wrote:Dan, I assume that "beastly" means even more than the "considerable heat" you reported on the Elektra A3.

Originally from the Bench writeup:

HB wrote:Even though I had seen the A3 at the Elektra booth at the SCAA conference, I was skeptical of the claimed six-liter boiler. It just didn't seem a large enough case, although the machine is definitely larger than Junior. I doubt no more, check out this bad boy:

Image

Uninsulated... that's gonna generate some serious heat I bet.

Serious heat... beastly heat... considerable heat. I'll write it off to literary license. They both generated enough heat to noticeably raise the temperature of the back of the house (no direct sunlight). The front of our house has direct sunlight and is several degrees warmer in the summer. I haven't compared the two espresso machines side-by-side to pick the worst offender. It would be close considering the GS3's steam boiler is running at a blistering 1.8 bar. It could be incorrectly set, I don't know, that's how it came.

On a related note, I've only steamed a couple cappuccinos, but noticed the heating element doesn't keep up. The pressure drops steadily. Of course it starts out so high it wouldn't matter except for steaming buckets of milk. We measured the reservoir water temperature too - 115F. That may be a new record among pourover models. ;-)
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by AndyS on Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:24 pm

another_jim wrote:Basically, if a machine had the capacity to put a heavy brew head at one temperature, and the water supply at another, one could produce arbitrarily (one peak only) curved profiles. An E61 box roughly approximates this spec.


I thought I was going to be able to manipulate profiles with three PIDs on my Silvia: grouphead, boiler, and feedwater. In practice, it's hard to get everything where you want it to be when you want it to be there. Surfing, always surfing....
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by cannonfodder on Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:28 pm

Beastly heat, ghastly heat, hell hath no fury heat, you should see how much heat an 11 liter HX boiler pumps out into the kitchen.
Image

But then a 4 group LM would make this look like a heating pad.
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by another_jim on Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:13 pm

AndyS wrote:I thought I was going to be able to manipulate profiles with three PIDs on my Silvia: grouphead, boiler, and feedwater. In practice, it's hard to get everything where you want it to be when you want it to be there. Surfing, always surfing....


I did say it was a one shot only deal, then wait another hour.

In general, I don't think the time is ripe for investing a lot of time in brew profile taste experiments. Ken's dual machine setup is close to ideal for this type of experiment; but his published curves don't really show enough consistency for a short test. I thought about this and the best I could come up with is a bit of a kluge when it comes to the experimental design:

1. Do a lot of shots, rate the shot and record the temp profile.
2. For each profile, derive a curvature coefficient (in a univariate exponential curve fit, the exponent's estimated power works as a single measure of curvature -- requires a transform of the curve).
3. Correlate the curvature to the taste, statistically controlling for average temperature variations.

At least 50 shots are needed if the shot curvature made a big difference; up to several thousand, if the curvature is only a small factor. I don't have the appetite for it. If the shots are paired, and the difference in shot rating were correlated to the difference in the temperature curves, the test would be a whole lot more sensitive, and cut the required number of shots to force a valid result by a factor of 10. But it's still a huge undertaking.
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by Ken Fox on Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:54 pm

another_jim wrote:I did say it was a one shot only deal, then wait another hour.

In general, I don't think the time is ripe for investing a lot of time in brew profile taste experiments. Ken's dual machine setup is close to ideal for this type of experiment; but his published curves don't really show enough consistency for a short test. I thought about this and the best I could come up with is a bit of a kluge when it comes to the experimental design:

1. Do a lot of shots, rate the shot and record the temp profile.
2. For each profile, derive a curvature coefficient (in a univariate exponential curve fit, the exponent's estimated power works as a single measure of curvature -- requires a transform of the curve).
3. Correlate the curvature to the taste, statistically controlling for average temperature variations.

At least 50 shots are needed if the shot curvature made a big difference; up to several thousand, if the curvature is only a small factor. I don't have the appetite for it. If the shots are paired, and the difference in shot rating were correlated to the difference in the temperature curves, the test would be a whole lot more sensitive, and cut the required number of shots to force a valid result by a factor of 10. But it's still a huge undertaking.


The results I've gotten so far are certainly interesting but not consistent enough, as you point out, for an accurate comparison. After extensive retesting of both machines this weekend, I'm convinced that the arrangement I've been using, a very low boiler temperature with a small flush, is not the final solution to tuning these PID'd machines. It may be that more shot temperature consistency can be achieved by splitting the difference between what I used to do and what I"m doing now, e.g. using a somewhat higher boiler temp and a somewhat larger flush. What can be really annoying is to do a whole series of shots and get maybe all but one very tightly grouped but the outlier is off by 2 degrees from the next closest shot, for no obvious reason.

An alternative approach that I think might have a higher probability of working would be to get the TC probe right up against the heat exchanger so that it more accurately reflects HX temps and gets the element responding to something a little bit closer to shot temperature than is the boiler temp.

As it is, for my own usage pattern which is to seldom make more than one drink in 10 minutes, I"ve got pretty decent actual temperature stability, but there is a fair amount of variability when shots are made at closer intervals, especially with frothing.

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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by luca on Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:33 pm

annp wrote:My comment was in response to what Dan said:

"A few minutes with the thermofilter confirmed a three degree offset between brewhead temperature and displayed temperature"

Please correct me if I misunderstood your question or put Dan's comment in the incorrect context.

How would you know how to program it without establishing parameters manually?


The same way that you dial in any espresso machine; by taste. When we first set up our Synesso, the espresso that it was producing was incredibly acrid. My boss was clearly not happy at dropping so much coin on a machine to have it produce crappy espresso. Over an hour, we tried a whole spectrum of temperatures and settled on one 4F lower than what it came set up at. Now, with a few month's experience, it only takes four or five shots to dial our guest blends in to the right temp. We're pulling the majority of our shots in the 200-203F band, so our offset is probably more or less where it should be, but the process would be no different if we were in the 120-123F zone and the offset were programmed in monstrously wrong! Dialling in the pstat on a prosumer HX is much the same thing. Pull a shot, taste, turn pstat screw a tiny bit, let the machine settle, pull a shot ... repeat until temperature is right.

The whole 'absolute temperature' thing is something that has never struck me as all that useful as a standard measurement (with the possible exception of AndyS' contraption). There have to be a gagillion things that can go wrong in measuring temperature. Hell, in the thread Errors in Temperature Measurement, John Bicht said

The combination of the instrument and thermocouple errors are as follows.

Keithley 2700 with E type (special limits) = within 2.16 degrees F
with T type (special limits) = within 1.26 degrees F

High quality PID controller
with E type (special limits) = within 2.5 degrees F
with T type (special limits) = within 1.6 degrees F

DVM typical with E type standard = within 6.96 degrees F
with T type standard = within 5.76 degrees F
with J or K type standard = within 7.96 degrees F


... and that's not taking into account methodological differences. The magnitude of the error here is enough that you'll taste it. Now don't get me wrong; I think that temperature measurement is useful as a guideline and to ensure repeatability, but I think that there's a risk in dogmatically saying "the recommended temperature for this blend is X, so I'll set my machine to that" and not learning how to actually tweak based on taste.

Bottom line is that the machine is just a tool. Its job is deliver us a consistent temperature. It is our job to tell it what temperature to deliver, and this is not a job that we should be outsourcing to another machine ie. DVM + thermocouple.

Just my $0.02,

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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by HB on Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:38 am

The GS3 is packed up and ready to go back tomorrow. Before I wrap up, I would like to offer my gratitude to several people:
Any many thanks to Lino, who travelled over an hour each way to help with testing and diagnosis (Wednesday, Sunday). Other evaluators included Mike Walsh, neighbors, and friends who prefer to remain anonymous.

I'll mull over a conclusion this week. Now I need a caffeine detox treatment... :shock:

luca wrote:The same way that you dial in any espresso machine; by taste.

Lino had borrowed my thermofilter and that's what I did. It's not difficult if you're working with a familiar blend. Move up/down a degree or two for each extraction and in 10-15 minutes you're there. They could just as well labeled the digital display -2.0 -1.5 ... 0 ... +1.5 +2.0 for all I care.
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by RapidCoffee on Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:11 am

And a big thanks to YOU for sharing your first impressions of a machine that has captured our attention (and may, in some cases, eventually capture our bank accounts :roll:).

BTW, those pours you posted on July 4 were simply bee-yoo-tiful. Nice job!
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by malachi on Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:16 am

luca wrote:The same way that you dial in any espresso machine; by taste.


Oh thank you SO much.
Made my day!
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by luca on Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:08 am

Dannimum Maximus wrote:They could just as well labeled the digital display -2.0 -1.5 ... 0 ... +1.5 +2.0 for all I care.


That's a brilliant idea!

The Tacy wrote:Oh thank you SO much.
Made my day!


Don't worry; some of your lessons are getting through ;P Thanks for helping us to choose the machine in the first place. You were right on about the stainless blocks being awesome. I still remove the shower screens to scrub them back every day, but after a chemical backflush they have absolutely nothing on them. Incredible.

Cheers,

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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by Nick on Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:48 am

annp wrote:I'd hoped that a production model would have less of a discrepancy between gauge readout and actual temp - it better for the price!


HB wrote:Lino had borrowed my thermofilter and that's what I did. It's not difficult if you're working with a familiar blend. Move up/down a degree or two for each extraction and in 10-15 minutes you're there. They could just as well labeled the digital display -2.0 -1.5 ... 0 ... +1.5 +2.0 for all I care.


Remember, the advantage of the thermofilter is that it's consistent, accurate, and allows for a standard measurement protocol that provides data that's relevant to other thermofilter-measured data (on different machines, different thermofilters, or both).

On any machine, WHERE you put the probe when measuring water temperature will effect the raw data. The true "correction" happens when you apply the data: as mentioned, as it corresponds to taste. Brew-water temperature numbers, by themselves, are meaningless. You have to establish a context or a scale. "202.5*F" means very little. "202.5*F on a Thermofilter," or "200.1 on my GS/3's readout" means a lot more.

Oh, and you can adjust the readout-offset on the GS/3 (and on the Synesso for that matter), if that sorta thing is important to ya.
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by another_jim on Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:22 pm

So, Dan, on Sunday, the last day, you had people over and served side by side Valentina and GS3 shots of the various blends on hand. Will you tell us about it or keep us on tenterhooks?
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by HB on Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:22 pm

Sorry Jim, the Sunday event turned out to be a small affair with only Lino, Mike Walsh, and me. Despite the low turnout, we had good espressos and enough time to compare not only La Valentina but also Lino's prototype:

Image

From EspressoFest 2006 Hands-on Equipment

I wasn't able to dial in the GS3 and La Valentina as quickly as the first time around using your coffee sample, so there remained very little for a side-by-side comparisons. However, my impressions on Sunday remained largely unchanged from my earlier report. Getting anything more than "that's pretty good" out of these guys isn't easy, but I'll prod them again for expanded commentary.

I'm still mulling over closing words for last week and starting a couple offshoot topics. The only surprise is the lack of surprises... which ultimately is a good thing.
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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by Paul_Pratt on Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:49 am

Nick wrote:On any machine, WHERE you put the probe when measuring water temperature will effect the raw data. The true "correction" happens when you apply the data: as mentioned, as it corresponds to taste. Brew-water temperature numbers, by themselves, are meaningless. You have to establish a context or a scale. "202.5*F" means very little. "202.5*F on a Thermofilter," or "200.1 on my GS/3's readout" means a lot more.

Oh, and you can adjust the readout-offset on the GS/3 (and on the Synesso for that matter), if that sorta thing is important to ya.


luca wrote:The whole 'absolute temperature' thing is something that has never struck me as all that useful as a standard measurement (with the possible exception of AndyS' contraption). There have to be a gagillion things that can go wrong in measuring temperature.


I agree 101% that xyz temp value is not at all relevant - what matters most is experimenting and tasting. Still, I can see what Ann is getting at. To adjust each machine using a Scace at the time of bench testing at the factory (to adjust the offset so the water temp and display temp are almost equal) isn't too much to ask.


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Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by another_jim on Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:51 pm

HB wrote:I wasn't able to dial in the GS3 and La Valentina as quickly as the first time around using your coffee sample, so there remained very little for a side-by-side comparisons. However, my impressions on Sunday remained largely unchanged from my earlier report. Getting anything more than "that's pretty good" out of these guys isn't easy, but I'll prod them again for expanded commentary.

I'm still mulling over closing words for last week and starting a couple offshoot topics. The only surprise is the lack of surprises... which ultimately is a good thing.


Thanks. While I really appreciate your report on my blend, I was more interested in how all the coffees fared in this go round. I look forward to your take.

BTW, Lino's machine is looking awesome.
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One week with the La Marzocco GS3 - Epilogue

Link to "One week with the La Marzocco GS3"by HB on Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:45 pm

It was certainly a pleasure to work with the La Marzocco GS3 up close for a week. Thanks again to Peter Guiliano for the loaner, and of course the supply sponsors I mentioned earlier. Keep in mind when reading this epilogue that my observations are based on only a very crammed week, while the Buyer's Guides represent months of daily use and measurements.

Most of all, I'm surprised how little that I was surprised; if anything, I'm a little disappointed. Although the machine met all the performance claims I've read, the same feeling one experiences after having seen a critically acclaimed film befell me, the feeling that anything less than absolutely mindbogglingly fantastic misses the mark. Most assuredly I cast an eye about the kitchen and listened carefully. Never did I hear a chorus of angels heralding the birth of a new espresso from the GS3's grouphead, nor did I see a heavenly glow envelop the room. That's the risk of unnaturally heightened expectations -- specifically my expectation that the exceptional espresso "ceiling" would rise under the mystical powers of the GS3.

Image
Photo courtesy of Mark Prince (flickr)

A couple weeks ago Sean Lennon and I talked about his modifications to the Brewtus, as documented in the Brewtus Compendium. He remarked that none of the modifications he made fundamentally changed the espresso machine's maximum potential, rather they increased the frequency of superior results. That was the impression that lasted with me throughout the week with the GS3. It was easy to pull good espressos on day 1 and very good espressos every day thereafter. Once or twice I thought the ceiling might move upward. Looking back on it, more realistically it was a case of the serendipitous "once a month" near godshot arriving, arguably with the aid of the GS3's predictable, solid performance.

Re-reading Chris' conclusion, I'm impressed how balanced it is despite his clearly effusive enthusiasm. His soundbite length analysis is excerpted below:

malachi wrote:Pros:
  • State of the art temperature stability,
  • Incredible ease of use,
  • Wonderful espresso,
  • Amazingly compact (and even portable),
  • Does not place limits or constraints on the barista,
  • World class components and technology.
Cons:
  • Very expensive,
  • Not semi-auto,
  • "Functional" aesthetic.
Edit: Removed "Steep learning curve for milk steaming" since it has since been addressed

His advice about who should and who shouldn't consider the pricey GS3 resonated with me:

malachi wrote:I figure there are probably two groups of home users who should consider the GS3. The first group is the seriously obsessive home espresso freaks. By this I mean the people out there who have already paid Schomer for his training course and consider the money well-spent. I mean the people who plan family vacations around espresso. I mean the people who have extensive cupping logs. If you are the kind of person who is passionate about coffee and wants to truly understand espresso as best you can - cost be damned - then the GS3 is your dream machine. And if you can afford it, you should buy it. It will free you to truly explore the boundaries of your abilities and your understanding. The second group are those who have more than ample funds, love coffee and simply want a very, very good cup of espresso every morning without too much muss or fuss.

Interpreting the results of the poll What does your typical espresso rate? suggests that nearly half of the HB membership thinks their daily espressos are at least "very good." Arguments about the accuracy of self-evaluations and meaningfulness of numerical designations aside for a moment, the poll shows that the majority are pleased with their results. It begs the question: How much more would they be pleased with the results if a brand-new GS3 arrived in their kitchen, and would they agree the incremental improvement was worth the sticker price? Would a consistent improvement of one-half point (from midway between good/very good to a solid "very good") be worth more than four grand? Or would an increased frequency of the higher portion of the spectrum they already know today be enough?

Jim commented offline his often-repeated observation is that there is no jump from an E61 box to something better that will be nearly as dramatic as going from a Silvia to an E61 box.

My gut reaction is that his observation holds true in the GS3's case too, despite my agreement that the GS3 tops every performance-related category noted in a Buyer's Guide conclusion (Exceptional Espresso, Morning After, Cappuccino Lover's). Then again, my viewpoint may be constrained by having only one week to experiment. Given a few months' time, perhaps I would have "unlocked new understandings about espresso" as Chris did, thanks to the GS3's temperature accuracy and precision.

Image Image
Photo courtesy of dublinbarista and Mark Prince (flickr)

In contrast, I didn't share Chris' enthusiasm for the GS3's usability. Perhaps, as Greg mentioned earlier, it may take "some getting used to", though I've used plenty of espresso machines that seemed well adapted to how I like to work, not vice-verse. Subsequently I would dock its Convenience / Features score due to the ungainly layout of the steam arm / steam arm toggle / brew button array. I'm hopeful that a smart product ergonomics design engineer will revisit the prototype control panel layout too. It's bank of same-sized buttons offer poor visual clues and no tactical clues to their different purposes. I was almost ready to place a big piece of masking tape near the correct button (if you look closely at the extraction videos, you'll notice that I hesitate for an instant as I confirmed which button to press :roll:). I have a nagging feeling that the focus on performance and reusing existing components trumped refinements one would have expected in a groundbreaking home espresso machine. Then again, it's a prototype, it may change in the final version, right?

Do I plan to add myself to the waiting list? Despite some quibbling above, it's really, really tempting. The forgiveness factor is very good. The beast clearly intends to kick butt in the WBC temperature torture test. You can tweak brew temperature with confidence and speed. It's a cappuccino loving locomotive and the velocity / volume of the steam balance is a true joy. And the compactness? Heck, I've reviewed prosumer espresso machines that would seem cramped in the same quarters the GS3 calls comfy. Were that not enough, the wife even gave me the green light to build an espresso bar in the rec room ("Don't complain if the kids bust one of your precious cups!").

So what's my answer? No thanks.

(to be continued...)
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