One week with the La Marzocco GS3 - Page 2

[HB]

So will we have an article pretty quickly after the GS3 reaches market called "How to Insulate the Boiler of your GS3?"

It may prove challenging. The two boilers are literally touching each other:


Left panel removed; larger steam boiler in back, smaller brew boiler in front.

I wrapped a towel around the gooseneck and grouphead. While it ruins the aesthetics, it keeps the back of the house cooler.

Just out of curiosity... What size (diameter) is that portafilter?

Standard LM issue: 58mm.

[AndyS]

I wrapped a towel around the gooseneck and grouphead. While it ruins the aesthetics, it keeps the back of the house cooler.

The brew boiler and group were engineered for temperature performance when UNINSULATED! I hope you remove your beach towel well before commencing any temperature logging experiments.

[luca]

I'm not sure about the brew controls as I'm used to a sexy little levetta. I'll miss the sexy little levetta, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Isn't the production version going to have a GS2-style paddle group as well as the volumetrics?

[HB]

The brew boiler and group were engineered for temperature performance when UNINSULATED! I hope you remove your beach towel well before commencing any temperature logging experiments.

Of course, but I doubt the performance would suffer if the steam boiler was insulated. Heck, it might improve. In any case, I removed the small cotton kitchen towel covering the grouphead at least an hour before doing a slightly modified version of the WBC protocol. Why modified? As Chris noted in his Pro's Perspective:

If you are an experienced barista, the learning curve for this machine is short. Other than learning to use the controls and learning to program the controller, little will be new to any barista. In fact, the hardest thing for most people to get used to is not having to do so much. It was hard for most everyone to stop their attempts to manage brew temperature. Repeat after me: Flushing isn't necessary.

OK, flushing isn't necessary, so I skipped the initial thermal equilibrium flush in the protocol and kept the "cleansing flush" at the end. Since this is an informal review, I don't plan on spending the time to generate enough data to be considered statistically reliable. However, based on the two runs I did complete, the shapes of the curves were very consistent with a slight rise to the end.

[lennoncs]

First, I'm glad you have the GS3 to play with, Dan.
So will we have an article pretty quickly after the GS3 reaches market called "How to Insulate the Boiler of your GS3?"
Ann

From a controls standpoint it is WWAAYY easier to make a lossy system stable than try to deal with one that won't give up its extra energy.


Sean

[AndyS]

I doubt the performance would suffer if the steam boiler was insulated.

LM has an insulation wrap for the machine and have been experimenting with variations on it. So insulation may or may not make it onto production versions.

[annp]

It may prove challenging. The two boilers are literally touching each other:

Whoa! Everything is shoehorned in there! So much for insulating at home.

Regarding temp accuracy...

I have a funny feeling the Scace device will be useful, at least initially for the GS3.

I was gonna get one anyway for the temp mystery in my kitchen that calls itself Anita...

Ann

[HB]

The thermofilter is great for diagnostic purposes, but I certainly would expect one would not be required for a production version GS3. I'm not a coffee professional, and yet I accurately judged the (incorrect) display temperature offset without one. Of course, that trick only works for coffee with which I am very familiar.

As for Anita's temperature mysteries, I recommend Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter. I installed a permanant one on La Valentina and did dozens of thermofilter tests as part of a planned experiment on Saturday. The reproducibility of the first two pulls wandered a bit, but the accuracy of the remaining pulls made the GS3 jealous.

[annp]

As for Anita's temperature mysteries, I recommend Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter. I installed a permanant one on La Valentina and did dozens of thermofilter tests as part of a planned experiment on Saturday. The reproducibility of the first two pulls wandered a bit, but the accuracy of the remaining pulls made the GS3 jealous.

I'd hoped that a production model would have less of a discrepancy between gauge readout and actual temp - it better for the price!

I'd also looked at Eric's adaptor but figured that the Scace device would ultimately be more flexible for other machines - unless I get something that requires a 53mm portafilter.

I know Anita isn't my long term machine, so I am a little reluctant to buy equipment specifically for it.

The GS3 is my ultimate choice because it is plug and play, but due to the lack of firm production information, I may be investigating other dual boiler options - and drilling my counter.

Ann

[HB]

I know Anita isn't my long term machine, so I am a little reluctant to buy equipment specifically for it.

You are killing me! You add yourself to the list to purchase a $4500 machine and hesitate to spend less than $100 for a plug-n-play modification to your current setup? You could probably sell it a year later and recover most of your cost... so now we're talking about ~$50.

And now a moment for one of my mini-rants...

I'm reminded of a recent discussion with Bob Barraza. He was showing me a timer to reduce his grinder waste to less than a couple tenths of a gram. He tsk tsk'd my volume measurement technique because it wasted a gram or two per shot. It makes economical sense to fuss about minute waste reduction in a shop pulling hundreds of shots a day, but in my home, a month's savings wouldn't amount to enough coffee to make a few espressos! I toss out that many in a week just experimenting - and this week I've tossed out dozens. If one wants to save money, get a top-end grinder and a French press. Espresso preparation at home is the least cost effective way to enjoy coffee. Economize on stuff like tampers (inside joke), not coffee.

[annp]

You are killing me! You add yourself to the list to purchase a $4500 machine and hesitate to spend less than $100 for a plug-n-play modification to your current setup? You could probably sell it a year later and recover most of your cost... so now we're talking about ~$50.

And now a moment for one of my mini-rants...

I'm reminded of a recent discussion with Bob Barraza. He was showing me a timer to reduce his grinder waste to less than a couple tenths of a gram. He tsk tsk'd my volume measurement technique because it wasted a gram or two per shot. It makes economical sense to fuss about minute waste reduction in a shop pulling hundreds of shots a day, but in my home, a month's savings wouldn't amount to enough coffee to make a few espressos! I toss out that many in a week just experimenting - and this week I've tossed out dozens. If one wants to save money, get a top-end grinder and a French press. Espresso preparation at home is the least cost effective way to enjoy coffee. Economize on stuff like tampers (inside joke), not coffee.

Ok, ok! Point taken! And according to Dave, my tamper has a distinguished lineage!

It's not the cost of Eric's adaptor - thats nothing - I'm thinking of the whole package, meter and everything, and whats the best solution with the most flexibility.

The way I understand it and correct me if I'm wrong, is the Scace device fits anything that accepts a 58mm portafilter, therefore is the most useful on different machines and if ultimately it's not useful for any current or future application of mine, I'll be able to find it a home with someone else. That was my reasoning.

Since I've got no desire to hijack this thread away from the hallowed GS3 - I'm going to ask a couple of questions over at the thread that pertains to Eric's device because I did consider it for Anita specifically.

Ann

[mogogear]

Dan,
Great info and input, thanks for taking the time to share what for many will be their only chance to experience this machine.(Me)
........Wait.... ,I just found one in the Canary Islands Craigslist for $150.00!!!!

Could you post some nice frontal and profile pictures so I can get a better sense of its totality?
Thanks

[HB]

Photographing in our kitchen isn't easy because there's a lot of shade in the back. I'll snap some photos when it's back at Counter Culture. In the meantime, flickr search offered these photos. I'm sure you'll really appreciate the first one:

[Marshall]

As you know, Kent Bakke is bringing a GS3 to the SCAA Homecoming next week. With luck it will be one of the later machines we saw in Charlotte. What questions would people like us to ask him?

[HB]

Might be nice to have both the PF and clear demi in the videos if possible.

Here you go:



Based on the small height of the "speed bump" and good results with longer preinfusion times (see The Secret Life of Ristrettos), I've increased the pump-on time to 2 seconds and left the off time at 2 seconds. You will hear a distinct click of the solenoid reopening around the six second mark (note that the audio track may lag the video playback).

[gscace]

The thermofilter is great for diagnostic purposes, but I certainly would expect one would not be required for a production version GS3. I'm not a coffee professional, and yet I accurately judged the (incorrect) display temperature offset without one. Of course, that trick only works for coffee with which I am very familiar.

As for Anita's temperature mysteries, I recommend Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter. I installed a permanant one on La Valentina and did dozens of thermofilter tests as part of a planned experiment on Saturday. The reproducibility of the first two pulls wandered a bit, but the accuracy of the remaining pulls made the GS3 jealous.

Be careful about drawing conclusions based on the prototype GS3. You might want to talk to Bill about the temperature probe in the one you are using. The one I had demonstrated half degree reproducibility, but some others didn't. The problem was traced back to response time of the temperature probes, of which several varieties were used, with some exhibiting faster response time than others. If you have temperature deviations I would guess that you have a slow reponse time probe. Bill Crossland will know if this is true or not. Since results of your test week are gonna be looked at for a long time, I would make sure they are not in error.

Also to clarify some things mentioned in this thread: The production version has a steam wand that is moveable in all directions, not just rotatable. Bill specifically asked all of us that tested the prototypes to refrain from commenting on the drip tray / steam wand position because the trays were very rudimentary add-ons that were constructed quickly so that a large number of prototypes could get out to door to testers. The drip tray design on the production version is different. Again, you should probably talk to Bill to learn more about this.

WRT control menus in the keypad: The prototypes were diliberately confusing to program, with more critical controls, such as brew temps and tuning parameters, buried deep in the menu hierarchy. The reason for this was so that folks diddling with the machines at trade shows wouldn't screw up critical functions. The production versions will be different in this regard. Talk to Bill.

Ergonomics: I initially didn't like the position of the steam valve actuation lever, but after using it for a while I found it convenient. It's pretty easy to hold the pitcher with your left hand, steadying it with your right, which is then immediately adjacent to the lever. Just takes some getting used to.

-Greg "Talk to Bill" Scace

[miKe mcKoffee]

As you know, Kent Bakke is bringing a GS3 to the SCAA Homecoming next week. With luck it will be one of the later machines we saw in Charlotte. What questions would people like us to ask him?

Only one question, can I take it home with me

[HB]

Since results of your test week are gonna be looked at for a long time, I would make sure they are not in error.

This is exactly why I did not publish data - it's a prototype.

Bill specifically asked all of us that tested the prototypes to refrain from commenting on the drip tray / steam wand position because the trays were very rudimentary add-ons that were constructed quickly so that a large number of prototypes could get out to door to testers.

Thanks, I hope that everyone understands that this espresso machine and any other version of it reported elsewhere on the web is a prototype. Subsequently the reported results and observations will undoubtly change.

The reason for this was so that folks diddling with the machines at trade shows wouldn't screw up critical functions. The production versions will be different in this regard.

Yes, Chris et al mentioned this reason. Not that it matters, but I wonder why they didn't use a password like on the GB5 if it's such a concern? Resetting the volumetric dosing is extremely easy, which would be disruptive in a trade show setting too.

It's pretty easy to hold the pitcher with your left hand, steadying it with your right, which is then immediately adjacent to the lever. Just takes some getting used to.

When I make my feeble attempts at latte art, I hold the pitcher in my right hand. The GS3's arrangement requires that I switch from the left to the right. You say it requires "getting used to", I find it clumsy. It's a minor point, and given the machine's incredible compactness, I assume it was a necessary tradeoff.

[Marshall]

It may prove challenging. The two boilers are literally touching each other:

Dan,

The GS3 spec sheet says each boiler is "5 liters." From your photo, I'd say that's impossible. Do you have the correct capacities?

[HB]

Do you have the correct capacities?

Sorry Marshall, I don't know this prototype GS3's capacities, heating element wattage, etc. BTW, it's not shown in the photo, but the pump is underneath the smaller boiler and it's easily seen from the front when the driptray is removed.