Olympia & Pasquini Conspiracy Theory

[Brooklynshot]

I have had a long standing Olympia & Pasquini "Conspiracy Theory" and was hoping some of you might be able to help me out... Did these companies ever work together or have any connections... and if so, do they still work together? I ask because of 2 espresso related machines in particular... The Pasquini Mocca Express grinder and the Olympia Coffex Espresso machine (now called the Olympia Maximatic). I happen to own both. I recently got the Olympia Coffex off of craigslist for only $250. I got the Pasquini Mocca Express off ebay for $198.
The Pasquini grinder I have is an older one and not the same as the current model they call the mocca express. It is EXACTLY the same as the grinder Olympia now sells as the current version of their "mocca express" grinder.
Regarding the Olympia Coffex espresso machine (now called the Olympia Maximatic). It seems to be EXACTLY the same as the Pasquini Livietta (now discontinued).
Any ideas on why or how these two companies may have worked together?

[jrtatl]

I have no experience with the machines or companies you mention. However, I do know that it seems fairly common for espresso equipment to be manufactured by one company, and rebadged for several others.

For instance, Mazzer grinders are also known as Astoria and Rio. They are all three the same, but with different badges on them.





Badges.... we don't need no stinkin' badges......

[terryz]

Any ideas on why or how these two companies may have worked together?

Seems to me that Pasquini private labeled the Olympia product for a while. The current Olympia Express, is not the same as the past ownership, but I think that is what your "Conspiracy" is about. Not an uncommon practice in the espresso world, but what I thought I knew was all wrong, so now I just drink Grappa and Wine

[hperry]

The most common Pasquini Products (such as the Livia) are rebadged Bezerras. I believe Bezerra at one time made a lever that looked similar to the current Ponte Veccio Lusso. Olympia also had a model for a while with roughly the same form factor. Don't know how all that fits together though.

[peacecup]

I understand that Paquini relabeled the Carrafex as the Livietta, and I think they currently relabel the Bezzera as Livia. The appear to have bought or continue to buy products from various manufacturers that they market under their name. Another example of this type of company is Gensaco, who market Ponte Vecchio, Riviera, and Bezzera products under their name. I think Gaggia has also done this, with the Factory and Mini levers, and some of their commercial machines,

PC

[T.J.]

We actually had this conversation on another thread about two weeks ago.

In fact, as many have said in this thread, it is quite common for many manufacturers to release products using several brand names.
For instance.....Cimbali and Faema super-automatics are both identical in internal parts. They are both built in the same facility in Binasco, Italy...the only difference is the body panels.
CMA, one of the largest manufacturers of commercial espresso equipment releases several brands, such as WEGA, Astoria, Formula and CMA.....in most cases the only difference is the body panels.

One thing to note is that Pasquini is not a manufacturer nor an assembly facility...they are importers and distributors. I'm sure they will source the best quality that meets their market design and are also free to outsource to other manufacturers to substitute or replace products. I am personal friends with the Pasquini family since our companies are also the oldest and most well established Cimbali importers for close to 50 years.

Italy, in specific Northern Italy, is quite different from most of the industrialized world in that the manufacturing base is made up of primarily small "mom and pop" manufacturing facilities. This leads to small batch, high quality home manufacturing but prohibits global market penetration through branding and does not source the funds necessary for product development. For this reason, so many small privately branded E-61 clones are available through dozens of small importers in North America. The ease of availability of the E-61 clone group along with the market demand makes the manufacturing of small, simple machines quite profitable for these small "mom and pop' facilities in Piedmont and around Milan.
There is little to no technology development while the importer bears the responsibility of marketing.
I am convinced that brew technology did not cease in 1961 when Faema introduced the E-61 group. While I admire its simplicity, I always prefer shots extracted through the newer groups that Faema (and some other serious manufacturers ie. Cimbali, Marzocco etc) currently implements in their machines.

In conclusion, there was no intended conspiracy........on the level of machines that we are discussing, there is little exclusivity both for the manufacturer and the distributor. As you moves up the food chain, the levels of technological, parts and branding exclusivity increase (albeit, never to the level of a fully "home grown" espresso machine). And, wine and Grappa aside, Terry...I really didn't mean to make you so self conscious......you were correct in everything you said except that Cimbali doesn't make its own burrs. Your explanation concerning the multiple levels of sourcing for all types of parts by every equipment manufacturer was on point.


For the sole reason of product development and research, it becomes evident to me that the Cimbali M-21 Junior and the upcoming GS3 are truly models out of comparison with the plethora of E-61 clones that dominate unit sales numbers on this level of investment.

[another_jim]

The Pasquini grinder I have is an older one and not the same as the current model they call the mocca express. It is EXACTLY the same as the grinder Olympia now sells as the current version of their "mocca express" grinder.

No espresso machine company makes their own grinders; they rebadge the grinders made by grinder manufacturers. High end home machines are usually paired with the small grinders made by Anfim or Fiorenzato; but I'm not sure which of these is the grinder you're looking at.

[ladalet]

Pasquini is an importer of Italian Espresso products since 1956. They decided to private label their own espresso machine and grinder sometime back in the ~80s. They decided to go with what was viewed at the time as the best manufacturer of home espresso equipment--Olympia. They went with, what we know as, the Olympia Moca Grinder and the Olympia Maximatic and rebadged them as the Pasquini Moka and Pasquini Livietta. In the ~90s when Olympia went out of business, Pasquini had to find a new manufacturer for its products. Pasquini went with the Bezzera BZ99 (I believe) and rebadged it the Livia 90 and went with the Anfim Haus Grinder and rebadged it the Moka. Bezzera designed and built the first espresso machine (steam powered) and continues to build award winning machines in Italy. Anfim is mostly recognised in Europe but builds parts for many brands including Mazzer; as well as private labels grinders for many companies (including Pasquini). The Haus is Anfim's bottom of the line grinder.

Olympia has been in financial trouble almost its entire existence. The reason for this may seem strange. It is because of quality. Manufacturers of espresso equipment make most of their profit off of replacement parts for repair and maintenance. Olympia espresso machines are built so well that one may not need any parts or maintenance for 20-30 years or more. Even then, that would be for some inexpensive seals not the more expensive internal parts. They are currently in very bad financial trouble. This is why production is down from 160 units per year to ~40. They really need our help to inform the espresso community that there is a very good reason as to the price of their machines. In the long run it will pay off to spend a little more up front. In fact I really believe that all of the exposure around the older used machines will really help Olympia because more people will be purchasing the older machines and restoring them. This will require alot of those replacement parts that they have not been able to sell in the past. The resurrection of all of these older machines may just be the resurrection of Olympia as a company. Companies like Olympia are a really rare gem. I would really hate to see them not make it.


Best wishes,
Lance

[Walter]

Sorry if this post is somewhat OT, but I just had to say it...

Seems to me that Pasquini private labeled the Olympia product for a while. The current Olympia Express, is not the same as the past ownership, but I think that is what your "Conspiracy" is about. Not an uncommon practice in the espresso world, but what I thought I knew was all wrong, so now I just drink Grappa and Wine

Drinking Grappa and Wine is not a bad thing per se ... especially not when it's good and when it's Italian...

For the sole reason of product development and research, it becomes evident to me that the Cimbali M-21 Junior and the upcoming GS3 are truly models out of comparison with the plethora of E-61 clones that dominate unit sales numbers on this level of investment.

Is that a good thing or a bad one? "Out of comparison" in which sense? And can the M21 (unmodified) and the GS3 really be named in one breath with regards to espresso quality? Is - again in that sense - a M21 really superior to all these E61 clones? Can we really generalize to such an extent?

Of course you are right that brew technology did not cease in 1961 when Faema introduced the E-61 group, but what was the main goal of the large groups like Cimbali since? Was their main concern about quality (in the cup) or about quantity (e.g. being able to serve more and more espresso (sic.) in less time and with less human effort) and market-shares and profits?

I consider myself very "italophil" and we are quite frequently in Italy - especially the north-east - but recently we have taken up travelling with my Pavoni lever machine (the quality of which has, btw., significantly decreased since Saeco bought the company) and the small Grinder. When we visit a bar we drink a glass of wine or prosecco instead of an espresso and in restaurants the quasi-obligatory 'Cafe' which finishes a usually superb meal is seldom a pleasure anymore.

Why? Because the espressi served in most bars and restaurants are usually mediocre at best. More often burnt than not and from a machine which has evidently not had a backflush and a good cleaning for quite a while. And very often these machines are Cimbalis - or Faemas. Luckily the Lavazza, Illy or - even worse - the Segafredo is not as ubiquitous as one might think, so that the small torrefazioni artigianali - another example of what you seem to call (somewhat condescendingly as it appears) "mom and pop" manufacturing facilities - can bring in at least a little quality.

What I find curious is that the really superb espressi I got within the last year all stemmed from machines you probably would consider (again somewhat condescendingly, IMHO) made by small garage manufacturer's in Northern Italy (though I'm not sure which companies exactly you may have had in mind with that term... LSM, Elektra, LaScala, Macap, Mazzer maybe?) and that the absolutely worst espresso was from a Cimbali distributor (whom I had visited destined to buy a Junior DT1, a deal which I eventually refrained from and decided to stick for the time being with my "garage-made" E61 clone).

I also remember some fairly good ones like those in Livio Felluga's small osteria in Brazzano (from an E61 Legend) or at a beach somewhere in Sicilia (from a Wega) and some from a friend who has a small roastery here (a Faema E92 Elite), but none could even remotely compare to the ones I make at home (but of course de gustibus non est disputandum)

To sum it up and to get to my point: I think that large companies - like Cimbali - in their chase of marketing figures and shareholder values (or whatever) seldom pursue excellence in the cup anymore. It is quantity they are after, not quality or - to be more precise - quality only insofar as it is necessary to increase profits. And thus, IMHO, these companies will hardly be the first choice for the home aficionado, who is in search of a machine which will aid him in pursuing his own goal: the best possible espresso given his own limitations.

[peacecup]

I have had the same thoughts re: Olympia, and other manufacturers of quality espresso makers, particularly lever machines. Once a customer has bought one, there is little profit left to be made. And honestly, not that many people want to spend $500, let alone $2000 on an espresso maker. We in the espresso world probably lose perspective as to what most people drink for their morning beverage - at best Starbucks, at worst.....!!!. This is reflected by the fact that home-brewed espresso is very often better than cafe espresso.

A recent visit to Seattle brought this home to me. Although I know Seattle has a high per-capita rate of great baristas, the best espresso I had there, up until my last day when I stopped at Cafe D'Arte, was a Starbucks from a fully automatic, no-portafilter type machine. Sadly, it sounds like the same may sometimes hold true in Italy. If consumers are not demanding, there is little incentive to maintain high quality. It's tempting to think that quality was better on the old lever machines, but I've had a lot of bad shots from commercial levers, so I suspect it's the barista. Hence, the love of home-brew, because with a little practice one can create great espresso exactly to taste.

Is there hope for companies like Olympia? I certainly hope so, but they may need to consider a model that can somehow be more competitively priced. When I bought a lever, I opted for new, but went with a Ponte Vecchio, another small company with quality components, albeit less attention to perfection. Even at $500, it would be difficult for me to find anyone among my acquaintances who would purchase one.

PC

[T.J.]

To sum it up and to get to my point: I think that large companies - like Cimbali - in their chase of marketing figures and shareholder values (or whatever) seldom pursue excellence in the cup anymore. It is quantity they are after, not quality or - to be more precise - quality only insofar as it is necessary to increase profits. And thus, IMHO, these companies will hardly be the first choice for the home aficionado, who is in search of a machine which will aid him in pursuing his own goal: the best possible espresso given his own limitations.

Walter,

You seem to have entered the conversation concerning market share, production and quality in the cup concerning the Cimbali group a little late. Although I don't want to again bore everyone with the specifics, details and test results of the Cimbali/Faema machine against other brands, I thought it appropriate to respond to your comments concerning market share and quality.

As I have said on several occasions, I do not...DO NOT!!!!!! equate sales results with quality.

The Cimbali brand, name and reputation are based on a gentle balance of high quality throughout a global market penetration.
On repeated occasions, the (unmodified) Cimbali brew group has performed well in comparison to any other brew group in the market.
At the Minneapolis SCAA convention we entered an unmodified Cimbali 2 group in a barista equipment competition (thermostabilization was a factor) against several other brands (including a Dave Schomer MODIFIED Linea) and won the competition.
You make a criticism of an entire line of thinking and manufacturing without citing one fact other than your personal preference. I have gone through great lengths in previous threads to open a discussion which expands beyond the simple line of reasoning which you employ in your post. I have worked to open the conversation which depicts market realities, tested facts using the scientific method (supported in many cases by the highly enlightened contributors to this site) and simple taste preferences. Your argument is that Cimbali, Faema and several other brands of machine are bad simply because a lot are sold and that you don't like the taste of coffee in Northern Italian bars. Well, now I'm glad you have shed some light.....I thought I was crazy.....

I do honestly believe, however; that the Cimbali Junior (which tested comparably against a two group Linea) and the Marzocco GS3 are at the top of their class for both an HX machine and a dual boiler machine. I have tested them both and have intimate experience with the M-21 Junior reliability and quality having sold this machine for close to 35 years. I do not consider the cloned E-61 group to be relevant any more in discussions concerning brew quality and innovation at the high end of the market. The E-61 clone has its place and that place is well deserved.

The term "mom and pop" referring to Northern Italy's small manufacturing facilities was used in a NYT article less than 3 months ago (I suggest you Lexus Nexus the article to familiarize yourself with the statistics on manufacturing demographics of Northern Italy). I did not use this term condescendingly as it is an oft used business term to describe size different businesses all over the world.

Anyone who would believe that the vast majority of coffees are not roasted by small regional roasteries is not familiar with the landscape of the Italian foodservice scene. Lavazza, Illy and Segafredo account for less than 10% of the total coffee consumed in coffee bars and restaurants......however; this was not even part of my post....why you mention it is somewhat bewildering to me.

And finally, it seems to me that if you travel Italy on a regular basis and can't find a decent espresso, you are going to the wrong bars.

[HB]

I do honestly believe, however; that the Cimbali Junior (which tested comparably against a two group Linea) and the Marzocco GS3 are at the top of their class for both an HX machine and a dual boiler machine.

Of the Buyer's Guides on this site that I authored, none was more thoroughly researched than that for the Cimbali Junior. It is the only one to get an unqualified "10.0" for its Materials & Workmanship score to-date. But Junior took it on the chin for its forgiveness, referred to as the Morning After performance score (so named because it attempts to quantify what a home barista should expect in the early days of ownership). In contrast, what impressed me most about the GS3 was its forgiving nature, especially for a La Marzocco, which in my experience demands more operator skill than a typical E61.

I cannot say how favorably the Cimbali Junior and GS3 would compare if operated by highly skilled baristas in a veritable pro's one-on-one espresso shootout. But I give heavy consideration to how easily an espresso machine is mastered because many home baristas simply don't have the time or motivation of a dedicated professional. To wit, I wondered if the delay timer modification that Ken applied to his Junior and documented in How to Preinfuse; Extraction Pressure Redux would put the two on more equal footing in your average kitchen. Has Cimbali considered such a modification to enhance its preinfusion and presumably increase Junior's forgiveness factor?

[Walter]

D.J.,

I admit I have entered the discussion late, mostly because I refrained from replying to your posts in the burr thread since I thought you would hear only what you want to hear. And also because I had - and still have - the impression you come here to tell rather than to listen...

As I have said on several occasions, I do not...DO NOT!!!!!! equate sales results with quality.

Die Botschaft hort ich wohl, allein mir fehlt's am Glauben ('I hear the message well, but...' Goethe, Faustus)

Your language, T.J., comes across as that of a businessman trying to sell something to another businessman. It is not that of an espresso-aficionado. There's nothing bad with that per se, but since most members - even though they may be businessmen too - come here because of their passion - espresso - and enthusiasm for this passion comes through pretty much every post here, you find yourself repeatedly confronted with the "quantity over quality" line of criticism.

You make a criticism of an entire line of thinking and manufacturing without citing one fact other than your personal preference. I have gone through great lengths in previous threads to open a discussion which expands beyond the simple line of reasoning which you employ in your post. I have worked to open the conversation which depicts market realities, tested facts using the scientific method (supported in many cases by the highly enlightened contributors to this site) and simple taste preferences. Your argument is that Cimbali, Faema and several other brands of machine are bad simply because a lot are sold and that you don't like the taste of coffee in Northern Italian bars. Well, now I'm glad you have shed some light.....I thought I was crazy.....

Indeed, my line of reasoning is simple, but it isn't that simple...

On the one hand I've been trying to point out that it takes more than a good machine to make superb espresso and that Italy is no longer the "promised land" regarding espresso-quality. Cimbali and Faema are not bad, but the fact that it comes out of a Cimbali or a Faema, doesn't make an espresso good either.

On the other hand I've been hinting about the fact that really excellent espresso doesn't necessarily need hi-tec equipment, as many home users e.g. with really simple small lever machines can prove and that scientific methods used e.g. to guarantee a 0.1°C thermal stability in 100 subsequent shots (yes I'm deliberately exaggerating here) are of little interest for the home aficionado who prepares seldomly more than a dozen espressi in a row. But real preinfusion - a concept which is alien to the Juniors - might be of greater interest for this clientel (as Ken Fox and Jim Schulman have maintained so well on more than one occasion). Also the potential to run the rotary version out of a gallon without having to use an extra pump (since the M32 seldom fits under standard kitchen cabinets and is a little more expensive).

And your point that cloned E-61 groups are not 'relevant any more in discussions concerning brew quality' might be debatable.

Furthermore you seem to have a somewhat ambiguous relationship to Marzocco and the GS3. You've been going great lengths in the other thread to point out how inferior Marzocco is compared with Cimbali and yet you repeatedly name the GS3 in one breath with the Junior S1/DT1. Though some might say that 'both have one group and make espresso and here the resemblance ceases'. But it appears that Marzocco seems ready and willing to lend an ear to the home-aficionados whereas Cimbali seems to maintain that home-aficionados simply have to confide in them, somewhere some modifications will be made and all will be well.

And finally, it seems to me that if you travel Italy on a regular basis and can't find a decent espresso, you are going to the wrong bars.

I didn't say 'decent' I said 'superb'. But I'm open for suggestions and directions, especially in the rural area or the piccoli paesi of the North-east...

Cheers

[T.J.]

Walter,

I accept your response since it is entirely in the spirit of this debate that you responded.

My relationship to La Marzocco is quite extensive......both personal and emotional in a very positive way. I have yet to remember where I criticized La Marzocco technology as it is entirely out of character for me to do so since my best friend is a principle in their company in Toscana.

I feel the GS3 is quite a nice piece of equipment and does have a market.

I wholeheartedly believe that the best current HX machine is the Cimbali Junior at the high end of the "Home Barista" market. I wholeheartedly feel that the GS3 may indeed take top honors in the same market for dual boiler technology...of course my hopes and wishes are that the GS3 is wildly popular because my best friend is behind its production. I do, however, work hard to keep my professional opinion separate from my emotional opinion in order to keep the conversation based on fact.

Now..........my credentials as an aficionado have been called into question. Let me say this......I find very few things in this world to be more satisfying than a properly extracted shot of high quality espresso (I prefer my beans blended and not single varietal).
I have three espresso machines at my house along with six professional machines at my office all set to different temps for use with different coffees. Because I can, I have grinders dedicated to different beans.

When used properly, a well built lever machine produces better espresso than any rotary HX or dual boiler machine. This is my opinion......I have a lever La Cimbali MicroCimbali at home that I rely on for my own use when really in need of a fix. Obviously, this is the least expensive way to produce espresso, but in the hands of an artist it is the best.

Unfortunately, so very few people know how to properly use one.

Now...I will close by saying this.

(1) The fact that La Cimbali sells the most machines in the world doesn't mean that La Cimbali machines suck.
That is pure counter culture hogwash. I used to think like that when I was 16 years old. I also thought I knew everything when I was 16 years old.
(2) Simply because I am a business professional in this industry does not preclude me from being both knowledgeable and passionate about espresso. Most people in this business find me to be quite passionate and sometimes a bit crazy about the "real" espresso coffee.

Walter, you make generalizations about people and things that seem almost dictatorial. Don't prejudge anyone until you know more about them.

[espressoperson]

When used properly, a well built lever machine produces better espresso than any rotary HX or dual boiler machine. This is my opinion......I have a lever La Cimbali MicroCimbali at home that I rely on for my own use when really in need of a fix. Obviously, this is the least expensive way to produce espresso, but in the hands of an artist it is the best.

Unfortunately, so very few people know how to properly use one.

Thanks for that! Many of us would-be artists over on the "Lever" forum share that opinion with you.

Appreciating the insights both you and Walter are providing and hoping the interpersonal stuff doesn't spoil the exchange.

[Walter]

Walter,

I have yet to remember where I criticized La Marzocco technology as it is entirely out of character for me to do so since my best friend is a principle in their company in Toscana.

T.J.,

I did not say you have criticized Marzocco technology, I said you have been trying "to point out how inferior Marzocco is compared with Cimbali" and I was referring to remarks like this one in the other thread:

Truth be told, almost 80% of machines manufactured by LM are shipped to the US. This accounts for just a few hundred units in total. Without getting into specifics, the Cimbali group sells easily three times as many in the same market.

----

I wholeheartedly believe that the best current HX machine is the Cimbali Junior at the high end of the "Home Barista" market.

I entirely agree with you on this regarding materials and workmanship - and even a few more parameters like boiler-size, etc. - I consider the Junior to be "state of technology", maybe even "state of the art" in the "Home-Barista" section. But can the same be said about its brew-quality in a low-volume environment? Dan's review didn't give me that impression, neither did it my - limited, though - personal experience with espressi from Juniors. Furthermore, as I said already in my previous post, the lack of real preinfusion and the requirement of line-pressure to fill the boiler pretty much disqualifies it for me personally.

Now..........my credentials as an aficionado have been called into question...

No, I didn't mean to do that, I'm sorry if it came across that way...

What I meant to point out is that your language as well as the contents of your posts always show your familiarity with Espresso as a business-professional, but only seldom show your passion for Espresso (like the remarks above about lever machines just did). If you find the time to browse some through the "Levers and SO coffee"-thread and "digest" Karl's tasting notes you will notice the incredible amount of passion some of us have for this topic (though, considering your position regarding SOs and coffee-freshness you will probably not agree with him).

Walter, you make generalizations about people and things that seem almost dictatorial. Don't prejudge anyone until you know more about them.

The funny thing is, the same thought about you crossed my mind more than once, but I refrained from mentioning it. But the fact that I see things differently than you do, doesn't necessarily mean I am judgemental or that I hold some sort of grudge against you or Cimbali. I do believe that some controversial discussion can - and should - be held here without establishing personal animosities...

Cheers

[HB]

...the lack of real preinfusion and the requirement of line-pressure to fill the boiler pretty much disqualifies it for me personally.

If you're referring to the Cimbali Junior, the latter point isn't correct. The boiler is filled by the pump. Technically you can run Junior without line pressure using a check valve because its Procon pump is spec'd to allow for negative pressure (up to six feet vertical lift). I don't have an owner's manual to check, but that configuration may be against Cimbali's recommendations though.

[T.J.]

HB,

You are most certainly correct in your pump specs for the Cimbali Junior DT/1.

This is not highly recommended usage, but we have hundreds working in this way and the operation has been smooth.

The Cimbali does not require line pressure.

[Walter]

This is strange. At a German BBS some owners as well as our local Cimbali representative told me, it would not be possible with the Junior DT1. About a year ago this was one of the main reasons I did not buy it (preinfusion was not a major issue for me, back then)...