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Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design - Page 2

Behind the scenes of the site's upcoming equipment reviews.

Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:24 am

texican wrote:Since you brought up the :wink: steam arm, have you thought of replacing the steam tip with something other than an Olympia tip (unless Olympia offers optional tips... hmmm.)


Steve, Now the question becomes....can you do that? On the 67 the tip in completely integrated into the steam arm. Now have they changed that? You will notice that I like the cliffhangers to keep you coming back. I'll hit this on a steaming post.
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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:32 am

lino wrote:Hey Steve, can you still buy piston shafts and pistons for your machine? Are they expensive? I have an idea...


Lino, yes you can...only money. I need to see what you are up to and what you need to drill ...you and Jim have me thinking about doing some research on the variable pressure of a lever pull. I think that Jim is onto something with his hypothesis that the pressure goes through three stages on a manual pull. I can feel it, but I want to measure it. Dan and I are about to rig something up and I wanted to see if I could get your data on the work you did on Elektra spring strengths.

Hope things are well for you.
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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by RCMann on Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:52 pm

Couple of shots of the pressure gauge.

Not brewhead pressure, but I'm sure with a bit of work that can be accomplished also.

We can equip these with more gauges than an F-18...RC


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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by lino on Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:12 pm

srobinson wrote:Lino, yes you can...only money. I need to see what you are up to and what you need to drill ...you and Jim have me thinking about doing some research on the variable pressure of a lever pull. I think that Jim is onto something with his hypothesis that the pressure goes through three stages on a manual pull. I can feel it, but I want to measure it. Dan and I are about to rig something up and I wanted to see if I could get your data on the work you did on Elektra spring strengths.

Hope things are well for you.


Hey Steve,

The more I think about it, the more I think it would just be easier/cheaper to duplicate the piston and rod. Perhaps at some point you could take yours out and I could measure them for an hour or so... Maybe once the holidays are behind us...

My thought is to put the pressure gauge roughly where the nut is on the top of the shaft. Run a pressure tap down thru the shaft, and thru the piston (which will now need to be sealed to the shaft). The big hurdle is how to deal with the lever pin that goes thru the shaft too...

The challenge with the Pavoni, Elektra, and Olympia design is that there isn't anywhere to mount a gauge that sees brew pressure all the time. And that's even before the, understandable, reluctance of drilling into the shiny group head. Y'all shoulda got a LaPeppina :wink:


Anyway, I'll look around and see if I can find the notes I took on the Elektra spring, and the LaPeppina spring too.
Actually, I don't recall that I measured the new Elektra spring... Hmm... I'll look.


ciao

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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:29 pm

RC, I think you win my Mad Maxx award for that beast...what a bare metal hot rod. Looks like you have an early 70s machine. Now I don't know if you plan to run full time with the case off, but please be very careful with that boiler. Those machines spook me.
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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:42 pm

Thanks Lino...would love to chat with you on ideas in the new year. I can always convince Dan to loan you the Elektra if you need to take some new readings. I am sure we can get it back together :lol:
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Group and Piston design

Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:12 am

As I dig deeper into the mechanical aspects of this machine, I begin to better understand and appreciate what Olympia's design point is for the Cremina and I am able to better appreciate the subtle aspects of its construction. Basically, this is a well crafted machine whose purpose is not to deliver a couple years of useful service, but with proper maintenance, multiple decades of solid consistent performance. I have a lot of pictures tonight but even so, I have had to limit my shots to those pics that either show the uniqueness of the Cremina's design, or the novelty of their solution to common problems.

To drop the piston on this machine you first need to remove the top nut and retaining nut at the top of the piston shaft. I was thinking of Lino's interest in tapping the pistons shaft since there is a lathe mark at the end where they machined this piece:

Image

Now as I mentioned in the reply to Teme, there is no play in the handle. They have threaded bolts running through the fork which allow for no sideways play. Now the question in my mind was whether these would stay tight over many years of use and it looks like that was on the mind of the Olympia engineers as they back tapped the rear fork and used a threaded retaining nut to ensure that will not happen....I like this touch.

Image

This design also allow you to simply remove the front bolt on the fork and the arm will now swing back giving you full access to the piston shaft. So with a couple short taps with a plastic hammer and the screen pops free. You will notice that they have moved away from the clip-on style that they had with my older machine and have adopted the style of most levers where the dispersion screen is held on with a major gasket:

Image

Now you can easily remove the piston. The piston is the heart of this machine. If you have followed my posts, you have seen plastic ones in Pavonis, you have seen the spring loaded ones on the Elektra, you have seen the mysterious 4 holes on my classic Cremina, but you have never seen anything like this. So let me start to show you why this is so special.

Image

There she is as you pull her out of the machine. Solid chunk of metal, novel use of color on the gaskets, and you see three instead of the normal two gaskets. So let's start at the bottom and see what they have done:

Image

First you will notice that the piston bolts onto the shaft. Most of the other machines simply have the piston head itself screw onto the piston shaft. Seems like a process that works OK, but if you use a machine consistently over time you will notice that one of the bad traits that they have is that they slowly unscrew themselves and block the water inlet. One of the most common complaints that I get on the Lever Machine Forum are from Pavoni owners who can't get water into the grouphead. That will not happen here.

Now once you remove the screw, you see that the piston is not solid, but a multi-piece unit:

Image

Now only you leverheads that have struggled with putting new gaskets onto a machine can understand the frustration of trying to get new V gaskets on a solid piston. You heat, they flip, you scratch them, you pry them....guess what....on this machine you simply drop them on and you are good to go. No fuss, no muss. That is almost worth the price of admission there. But while we have it apart, let's take the time to look hard at these gaskets. Now on the Elektra, there are two unique gaskets, but on the Olympia, there are really two vastly unique gaskets.

As you look at the green one, you first notice that they are not normal rubber based gaskets but the external portion are made of a much denser vinyl composite. As Teme noticed in an early post, the 4 holes are gone that you see on my older machine which was a very elegant solution to allow the rubber gaskets a tighter fit against the grouphead walls. So with a firmer material and not water holes, how will you get both the smooth operation and an extremely tight fit. This you won't believe:

Image

This is the top gasket. Embedded into the gasket is a spring which allow the gasket to flex both on the upstroke and the downstroke.

Image

This is the bottom gasket that is filled with a porous spongy material that I think can still utilize water to help with its action on the upstroke and the downstroke. Some serious engineer work went into this solution. With the harder material you have gaskets that not only perform better, but I would assume have a much longer life than the older design. This combined with the piston design allows for less frequent maintenance but when needed, much simpler replacement.

Now how about the middle gasket...How the hell do you replace it. Again you will see that Olympia went with a hard material and simply precut the gasket. Snaps right on...brilliant.

Image

Now to the step that you dread when replacing the piston. New pistons = tight seal and the biggest headache with most designs is how to get the lip of the top gasket into the grouphead. Now with other machines I have used a scribe to help with the rubber washer but with this harder material I was a bit concerned whether it would flex enough to keep me from marring the gasket or the grouphead.

And then it dawns on you. With a multi-piece piston, you can simply insert the piston shaft, insert the first gasket and then add the rest of the piston and tighten the piston IN the grouphead.

Image

My hat's off to Markus and the Olympia engineers for that trick.

So with this simple tour of the grouphead and piston you start to see how well these machines are thought out and how their design has been planned. I often get asked whether I can make as good a cup in another lever machine as an Olympia and the answer may be yes on day one, but if you tested that one year down the road, 5 years down the road or even 20 years down the road, my opinion is that it becomes obvious that the long term test will go to the Cremina.
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Re: Portafilters

Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by Teme on Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:37 am

Truly fascinating stuff. I start to realise why these machines do cost (significantly) more than e.g. the Pavonis. Hmm...

srobinson wrote:I'll do some compares on the baskets later in the reviews. I am getting very good performance from both on the older machine.

I see that you have already pulled some very nice looking shots indeed and I look forward to your further evaluations on the various baskets, including the Elektra double basket if it fits.

srobinson wrote:1) New one will take a clip

Does the portafilter / basket really take a clip? This would be a first I've seen in a lever machine and while I'm not sure I'd want to use a clip, it is interesting nonetheless.

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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by RCMann on Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:00 am

"RC, I think you win my Mad Maxx award for that beast"

Steve-It's only sans bodywork until I strip it, clean it, and replace the gaskets/seals which will be over New Year's weekend. Meanwhile, it's making great espresso even with old rubber.

It's a 1974 Zabar's special.

Regarding asbestos, it's only an airborne hazard, and even then only for chronic exposure, so unless you've gone into business sanding old Cremina tanks without a respirator, there shouldn't be a problem. Even if a bit flaked off into the cup, ingestion isn't an issue with asbestos.

One could always paint the tank with some hi-temp engine paint to seal it if it was a concern.

BTW, will the new piston fit into the old head? The Oly site lists the 2002 'piston assembly, complete' for ~$382 which seems high, I wonder if that's the whole brewhead? If the piston is reasonably priced and fits, maybe a nice upgrade!

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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:48 am

Teme, yes, the Olympia and the Elektra come with a clip. With my process I don't use them though. I always grind into a separate cup and dose from that to try and keep the wife tolerant of the hobby. Trying to dose in these small diameter baskets are quite the challenge. I also keep multiple baskets at hand and am usually preparing 2-3 at a time. Thus, I can just do a pull, flip the basket in the sink, add another one and get all my pulls in before the machine gets too hot. We are debating adding a coffee bar to our kitchen redo, so may go with a knockbox there and I would use the clip more.

Rod, I hear you. I have a friend in construction who makes his living removing asbestos and some of his stories just give me the creeps around it. I have seen some machines where the cement they use deteriorates over time. As long as it is stable....

It is hard to tell from their site what that price covers. I think if you were considering this upgrade, I would drop them a note to be certain. I added up just the shaft parts and it was in the $170 range. Another option for you with your older machine would be to simply upgrade to the piston and gaskets from the 67. I really like the action of performance of that on my older machine. I think for 300+ bucks I would be upgrading my grinder.
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Lever Pressure

Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:49 pm

Being the first lever review on the bench, I was feeling a bit jealous and inadequate with all of the other data/graphs that the other reviewers were putting out on their respective machines. As you have seen, these machines are much more sophisticated and are loaded with PIDs, controllers and abundant gauges to help make these measurements possible. So my challenge was to try and see if you could do a pressure profile of the Olympia. With some time on my hands and the wife out of the house, it was perfect time to give it a shot.

There had also been some good discussions on the lever forum with regards to what pressure is actually used during a lever shot, so I convinced Dan to steal a few of his loose parts to see if we can get an idea what pressure is needed on the Olympia and how that pressure varies during a pull.

What we rigged up was an elbow pressure gauge on the bottom of the Olympia portafilter. My wife currently has my digital camera at her parent's house, but I will post some pics of the setup. With a real pressure gauge I hypothesized that I could be a bit more exact on how much downward pressure would be needed to record specific bar pressure on the gauge. Utilizing my handy bathroom scale, that became famous in my Elektra/Pavoni comparison, I was able to plot the following curve:

Image

With this data as my reference curve, I did a rough plot of the pressures that I saw during a good shot at 2 second intervals. To help understand the line, the shot had a 10 second pre-infusion, followed by a first pull...and then you will see the line drop to 0 as I did a second pull until blonding. Take a look:

Image

A couple observations from this data. First, there is very little reference material out there that helps me validate these curves. There have been several posts stating that it takes roughly 40lbs to pull 9 bars, so I was pleased to validate that point. I think the pattern does give you some insight on the unique nature of lever machines. At the start of the pull, infusion is under your control and you can hit the puck immediately with full pressure. There is no ramp-up. Also with these machines, there is variable pressure during the pull. I was using a pulling style of letting the machine do the work and tried to stay with its resistance. The final observation is that with a full manual, I believe that you are able to start at a higher pressure and maintain an overall higher pressure than with an spring loaded machine. Lino had done some tests with an Elektra and I believe he was finding pressure ranges from the high 6s to finishing around 3 for an average pull. By being able to grind finer and keep pressure high, I think you are able to generate the unique mouthfeel that you get with a great lever shot.

So this is my first shot at trying to profile a lever. I will duck under the desk while the real engineers critique my test :lol:. In my next posts I will begin discussing procedure to pull a shot and highlight the suggestions from Olympia, combined with some additional hints and tips from my process.
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Re: Lever Pressure

Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by danno on Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:55 am

srobinson wrote:So this is my first shot at trying to profile a lever. I will duck under the desk while the real engineers critique my test :lol:. In my next posts I will begin discussing procedure to pull a shot and highlight the suggestions from Olympia, combined with some additional hints and tips from my process.


No ducking needed, Duckie!

Truly an excellent analysis, Steve. Thanks!
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Re: Lever Pressure

Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by espressoperson on Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:56 pm

srobinson wrote:So this is my first shot at trying to profile a lever. I will duck under the desk while the real engineers critique my test :lol:. In my next posts I will begin discussing procedure to pull a shot and highlight the suggestions from Olympia, combined with some additional hints and tips from my process.


Steve, those graphs are beautiful! I for one would love to frame them and mount them on the wall behind my Cremina. Can you please direct us to the data, or make the numbers available so we can print out suitable copies.

And to any engineer who would criticize your findings, just say "Sorry, Charlie, we don't want engineers with good taste, we want engineers that taste good." (Not sure why but your comments bring to mind that old Starkist Tuna commercial...)

Looking forward to the continuing review.
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Side by side graphs request

Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by texican on Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:27 pm

First of all, thanks for the graphs of the lever pressure on the Cremina 2002! As an owner of a Cremina 67, I would be interested to see if you might be able to post comparison graphs between the 67 and 2002. Given that you have recently replaced the seals and gaskets it would offer insights to current 67 owners as to performance differences of the two models.

Thanks, Texican.
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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:20 pm

You guys are great. If you send me an email, I will gladly send you the full size jpegs if you desire or the PowerPoint source if you would like to embellish with colors. I will try and see what the 67 looks like. I am assuming that it will be fairly close...the first graph should be identical since all the lever equation variables are the same. Will have to test the pull.
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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by hbuchtel on Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:58 am

How are the Olympias?

Eager for more,

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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by Teme on Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:03 pm

I'm also eagerly awaiting further findings. I'd be interested in a comparison of the group overheating times where a Pavoni, Cremina and possibly Elektra were run at equivalent boiler pressures...

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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by srobinson on Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:02 am

Sorry guys. With my job the worst time of the year is the end of the year close and the new year start...so have been buried under that. Will get a new post out shortly. Sorry for the delay.
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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by espressoperson on Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:44 am

srobinson wrote:Sorry guys. With my job the worst time of the year is the end of the year close and the new year start...so have been buried under that. Will get a new post out shortly. Sorry for the delay.


Hey Steve! Are we ready for an update yet? Even some informal tidbits about life with the new cremina if not detailed analyses.

PS. Please send cremina pull pressure graph numbers when you get a chance.
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Link to "Olympia Cremina 2002: The evolution of design"by HB on Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:45 pm

Food & Wine's An Obsessive's Guide to Coffee picked the Olympia Cremina among its best espresso machines, saying "WHY WE LOVE IT: This Swiss manual-lever machine has a cult following; only 40 come to the U.S. each year."
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