Nuova Simonelli Appia - any experience?

[joatmon]

5 liter boiler
1500 watts / 15 amps
97 pounds
direct plumb / rotary
preinfusion
volumetric dosing

WOW! $2500 from Chris.

[jesawdy]

No experience, but I suspect it ROCKS!

I have been keeping an eye out for smaller used Cimbali and Nouva Simonelli commercial machines. These are my current dream machines, though I have never used either. For some reason, I think I need programmable dosing buttons and to be able to steam a pitcher of milk in 10 seconds (is that so wrong?)!

Unless you have a dedicated space to put it, this one might be a bit tall at almost 21 inches. It also has an interesting steam lever (versus a knob) I was checking this out on a 2 group NS MAC 2000 at a Carraba's Italian restaurant. That 2 group was way huge!

-Jeff

[another_jim]

I tried the Aurelia and the GB5 on my favorite blend among the many excellent ones at the Supreme Bean shindig (the Dolce Terra: if you love sweet fruit bombs and think Parker rocks, this one's for you). I thought the Aurelia shots were superb, better than those from the GS5. This is of course with all the usual "this is meaningless" caveats of preset temperatures and pressures, zero experience, etc. etc. The Aurelia is the easiest machine I've ever worked. The GS5 is almost as easy, not the usual LM bear.

The Appia is supposed to have the same group and HX; but maybe not all the same details of jetting and electronic controls.

[Marshall]

5 liter boiler
1500 watts / 15 amps
97 pounds
direct plumb / rotary
preinfusion
volumetric dosing

WOW! $2500 from Chris.

This is the same machine the NS rep in Charlotte told me would list for $3,700 in the U.S. (and wouldn't arrive here until the Fall). Chris may be running an introductory special. If you have the counter clearance (it's really tall), it's definitely worth a look, especially if you don't change temperature very often.

[joatmon]

This is the same machine the NS rep in Charlotte told me would list for $3,700 in the U.S. (and wouldn't arrive here until the Fall). Chris may be running an introductory special. If you have the counter clearance (it's really tall), it's definitely worth a look, especially if you don't change temperature very often.

Why not good if you change temp often? Are most/all HX machines easier?

[Marshall]

Why not good if you change temp often? Are most/all HX machines easier?

The Aurelia depends on a clever system of hot and cold water mixing to maintain its temperature stability. Temperature is adjusted by opening up the machine and swapping gicleurs. There is no simple external control. This works nicely in a commercial setting that always brews the same blend. But, at home it would be a much bigger pain than punching numbers into a PID.

[joatmon]

The Aurelia depends on a clever system of hot and cold water mixing to maintain its temperature stability. Temperature is adjusted by opening up the machine and swapping gicleurs. There is no simple external control. This works nicely in a commercial setting that always brews the same blend. But, at home it would be a much bigger pain than punching numbers into a PID.

You refer to the Aurilia as though it is the same as the Appia. Is it? I understand that a gicleur may be simple to replace. How is it on the Appia?

Thanks,

Jack

[Marshall]

You refer to the Aurilia as though it is the same as the Appia. Is it? I understand that a gicleur may be simple to replace. How is it on the Appia?

Thanks,

Jack

I don't know. Ask Chris.

[joatmon]

I don't know. Ask Chris.

Good suggestion.

I called Chris and spoke with Mary. She said the Appia's temp is controlled by going inside the machine and adjusting the Sirai pressure stat.

Jack

[Marshall]

Good suggestion.

I called Chris and spoke with Mary. She said the Appia's temp is controlled by going inside the machine and adjusting the Sirai pressure stat.

Jack

That's what p. 36 or the owner's manual says: http://www.nuovasimonelliusa.com/images/Appia_1_group_manual.pdf. But, that's also what p. 12 of the Aurelia manual (same site) says, while everyone else is talking about gicleur adjustments. The manuals also say that pressurestat adjustments should only be made by "a qualified technician." It sounds like NS isn't eager to have end users tweaking the machine.

You are totally beyond my experience at this point, as I have been relying on third party reports and salesman talk in Charlotte. The Appias have just arrived in the U.S., so it may take a while to get a handle on how stable and adjustable they are.

[joatmon]

That's what p. 36 or the owner's manual says: http://www.nuovasimonelliusa.com/images/Appia_1_group_manual.pdf. But, that's also what p. 12 of the Aurelia manual (same site) says, while everyone else is talking about gicleur adjustments. The manuals also say that pressurestat adjustments should only be made by "a qualified technician." It sounds like NS isn't eager to have end users tweaking the machine.

You are totally beyond my experience at this point, as I have been relying on third party reports and salesman talk in Charlotte. The Appias have just arrived in the U.S., so it may take a while to get a handle on how stable and adjustable they are.

I believe Mary said they've had them since April, have sold 4, and they have one in stock. She reported no feedback, which I take to be good. The height at 20.75" may be the show stopper. I'd consider dealing with the height issue if it was "the" machine, or at least "the" machine in the under $3k and it's available now at a store near you category.

90 minutes to a Black Cat double,

Jack

[woodchuck]

Not sure this is the best place for this post but here goes. I had a chance to play a bit with the Aurelia on Friday at CCC. Dan was there and after a couple of attempts pulled some very sweet shots of CCC's latest Toscano +++. Thing is he pulled about six or seven shots - none bad and all with a very deep, dark crema and lovely berry flavour. I pulled a couple after Dan and the coffee geek crowd left. Took a bit of work but with a little updosing managed to get some nice rich chocolate, an initial hint of fruity cranberries and a great finish. I took the same grinder and beans went back to CCC's La Marzocco three-group and I could not recreate the really soft, rich front end. A much brighter shot and the color of the crema was much lighter. Not too scientific a post, I have no idea what the machines were set at pressure and temperature wise but I sure was impressed with the Aurelia.

[HB]

Thank Ian for the reminder, it was a fun tour with the Aurelia. Peter has had one in-house for a month as part of their survey of available equipment. He asked if I was interested in checking it out early and this thread on the Appia reminded me set aside a Friday espresso lab for it. Peter prepared (and properly rested) a sample of Toscano + some Harrar that accounted for the ample comments about fruitiness.

I arrived uncharacteristically early because of a meeting at 9am. To avoid mixing equipment, we hauled the Robur from the espresso lab into their bench area where the Aurelia was setup. I had talked a little to their technician about the interesting HX design. Calling it an "HX machine" seems like a misnomer; apparently it's so large, it could be rightly called a second boiler (don't quote me, but I think its volume is almost as much as the GS3's dedicated brew boiler). Since the HX is so large, incoming water doesn't have a dramatic effect on its output temperature. The HX's output water is mixed with unheated water to arrive at the desired brew temperature. As reported earlier in this thread, swapping in a different mixing valve changes the proportions and the resulting brew temperature (the owner's manual only talks about tweaking the pressurestat; we did not measure how much effect that would have).

Our quick spin involved a series of extractions at different doses and grind settings. I started with a standard dose, then updosed for the next shot to correct for the pour speed and try to increase the body. Often an espresso machine has a preferred dosing style (i.e., standard dose, lots of clearance / downdosed, or little or no clearance / updosed). In the end we settled on an updosed basket (~19 grams) and a slightly finer grind, yielding the dark berries everyone talked about. Strangely enough, the signature Toscano flavors were nearly absent (i.e., chocolates and caramel). Maybe Peter tweaked the blend more than he led on, I don't know.

The Aurelia sports a toggle-like steam switch. That didn't go over well with those who prefer to finesse the steam volume with a turn knob. It worked for me, especially since the machine's boiler pressure was a very manageable 1.0 bar. It held at that setting indefinitely and steamed up good microfoam. First time visitor Bob Henry was impressed by my attempts as latte art. He's apparently never seen it, the leaves were fuzzy and the details all but absent in the second cup. I accepted his kind words nonetheless (no argument that the milk was very sweet, especially the second and third round macchiatos).

I can't say how well our positive impressions of the Aurelia translate to its little sister, the Appia. I wonder if the combination of a 5L boiler and 1500W heating element will mean slow steam recovery. Hard to say because the actual volume for steam may be a lot less than 5L given the super-sized heat exchanger.

PS: CCC's new espresso lab opens this week. A LM FB-80 is already installed (same machine as used in the WBC). A two-group Linea and GB-5 will be installed too in time for an espresso class on Thursday.

[Marshall]

Calling it an "HX machine" seems like a misnomer; apparently it's so large, it could be rightly called a second boiler (don't quote me, but I think its volume is almost as much as the GS3's dedicated brew boiler). Since the HX is so large, incoming water doesn't have a dramatic effect on its output temperature. The HX's output water is mixed with unheated water to arrive at the desired brew temperature. As reported earlier in this thread, swapping in a different mixing valve changes the proportions and the resulting brew temperature (the owner's manual only talks about tweaking the pressurestat; we did not measure how much effect that would have).

NS describes both the Aurelia and the Appia as having a "thermocompensated" group. http://www.nuovasimonelliusa.com/images/appia_1_group_bochure.pdf. If that's what they call the mixing system, this machine could be an amazing value for anyone who has the counter space.

[another_jim]

NS describes both the Aurelia and the Appia as having a "thermocompensated" group. http://www.nuovasimonelliusa.com/images/appia_1_group_bochure.pdf. If that's what they call the mixing system, this machine could be an amazing value for anyone who has the counter space.

Micheal says that "thermocompensation" is an effect most thermosyphon machines, including the E61, both manual and solenoid, use. It means that some cold water makes its way up the thermosyphon return at the shot's start and tempers the initial in-rush of overheated HX water. In the Aurelia, this is well tuned, I suspect it was on real Faema E61s, including the classic, because Steve Schulman has pulled me lots of shots (a daily thing at the SCAA convention), and I've never seen him flush. I suspect that home e61 boxes don't have the all the parts required for this sort of tuning.

[gscace]

Not sure this is the best place for this post but here goes. I had a chance to play a bit with the Aurelia on Friday at CCC. Dan was there and after a couple of attempts pulled some very sweet shots of CCC's latest Toscano +++. Thing is he pulled about six or seven shots - none bad and all with a very deep, dark crema and lovely berry flavour. I pulled a couple after Dan and the coffee geek crowd left. Took a bit of work but with a little updosing managed to get some nice rich chocolate, an initial hint of fruity cranberries and a great finish. I took the same grinder and beans went back to CCC's La Marzocco three-group and I could not recreate the really soft, rich front end. A much brighter shot and the color of the crema was much lighter. Not too scientific a post, I have no idea what the machines were set at pressure and temperature wise but I sure was impressed with the Aurelia.

I don't think you can make any meaningful comparison unless you know details of brew temperature and pressure. FWIW, the LM 3 group that was in the training lab at Counter Culture ran very cold during the my demonstration of the Scace device at EspressoFest this last spring. WRT the Aurelia, I spent a fair amount of time talking about thermometry and temperature stability in the Simonelli booth at SCAA. They had an Aurelia equipped with one of my thermometers and were demonstrating its temperature stabilty. It's extremely stable for a HX machine, and it's tuned so that no cooling or heating flush is required. The scheme is very clever. The temperature is tuned in two ways. It may be tuned by pressurestat, but it is also tuned by changing a pair of gicleurs that are located inside the group. I'm not sure that one method is better than the other because I haven't tested one. However, the gicleur pair idea seems to work very well for producing brew temps independent of group flushing.

The Aurelia made me rethink my opinion on HX machines. And I'm a staunch supporter of the double boiler concept. It'd be killer with a PID'd boiler.

-Greg

[HB]

FWIW, the LM 3 group that was in the training lab at Counter Culture ran very cold during the my demonstration of the Scace device at EspressoFest this last spring.

Ian is referring to a different LM. EspressoFest 2006 was in Charlotte and our Friday espresso get-togethers are in Durham. I didn't check the brew pressure of the Aureli, but Peter regulates the other machines to 9.5 bar.

[gscace]

Micheal says that "thermocompensation" is an effect most thermosyphon machines, including the E61, both manual and solenoid, use. It means that some cold water makes its way up the thermosyphon return at the shot's start and tempers the initial in-rush of overheated HX water. In the Aurelia, this is well tuned, I suspect it was on real Faema E61s, including the classic, because Steve Schulman has pulled me lots of shots (a daily thing at the SCAA convention), and I've never seen him flush. I suspect that home e61 boxes don't have the all the parts required for this sort of tuning.

Michael told me earlier this year that a lot of machines destined for US markets were stripped of the restrictors used to implement this effect, in order to sell the machines on the cheap. According to Michael this scheme is well known in Italy.

The Aurelia HX is not exactly the same as that used in e-61 style machines. There are some very novel features of the Aurelia hx that make the mixing scheme much more effective.

-Greg