No water from Volante

[edwa]

Well the stock market may have crashed last week but its Black Sunday here.

I pulled another fabulous shot of Toscano this morning but when I came back a couple of hours for my next go round I pulled the lever up to flush and got nothing but a dribble a small hum instead of the usual pump hum. I opened up the hot water wand and nothing comes out so now I'm worried if the boiler was dry and the heating element burned out. I checked the water line and the regulator reads the usual pressure and opening the T-Valve proves that water is getting to the machine.

Any ideas of what has gone bad?

Pulling Miss Silvia out of the attic after 2 years should prove to be interesting experience. She had been overhauled just before storing.

Here's a video of what water I get:


Thanks in advance,
Ed

[mhoy]

Perhaps some scale is stuck in the feed path? Do you use softened water (or lucky enough to have soft water)? Have you descaled recently?

Mark

[edwa]

I have softened water from a Rayne water softener, and I pulled the mushroom about a month and a half ago and it had the smallest amount of scale on it which I scrubbed off. I don't think the pump is engaging so if some scale did stick wouldn't I still hear the pump turn on and off. Normally the Manometro on the right goes up to 1 or 1.2 but as you see in the video it stays at 0.

[shadowfax]

Does your machine get hot? I noticed the boiler pressure is 0. Water will not come out of the hot water tap unless the boiler is pressurized, so I don't think that your boiler is dry. there's really no way for it to empty short of a leak, although if it's under pressure and you run the hot water tap long enough, in theory you could get the water low enough to damage the heating element.

I don't see anything wrong with your machine. Water is coming out of the group--it looks like plenty, too. It's just not sputtering like it would if it were flash boiling, but this is not surprising considering your boiler pressure is 0. I suspect you might have a bad heating element (if the machine isn't coming to pressure while on). It might have just gone. Alternately, the solid state relay that switches the element on could be out. sometimes this is indicated by the red heating light being off when the boiler is below operating pressure, though that will depend on how your machine is wired. My SSR has an LED on it that indicates when it is active. I assume that it would go out if the SSR fails.

If your pump is genuinely making unusual noises, it may be on its way out. 2 years is a low but not unbelievably low service lifetime for a vibratory pump. However, it still appears to be functioning. [edit]upon re-watching the video, I realized that I was confusing the high level of ambient noise with the pump noise. that is pretty quiet. I would replace the pump. Still, that is a separate problem from low boiler pressure (the tap not running). [/edit]

[miKe mcKoffee]

Since a direct plumbed Volante it has rotary pump, water coming from the group in video was lines pressure. Unfortunately seems like mulitple syptoms to me. Pump doesn't turn on and boiler not heating. Video don't hear pump come on and water from group doesn't appear hot, no steam or flashing. Hot water tap wise would be dispensed with pump off pushed out by steam pressure, doesn't happen.

When operating normally do you hear a fairly pronouced click when the heater turns on? If the Voltante uses the same heater relay as the Retro Bric' it's a mechanical not SSR. (Not referring to pstat click, pstat drives a much beefier separate relay located lower left front which drives the heating element.) Do you hear the click now after initializing on power up?

Hmmm bad pump or pump motor could be the cause of both symptoms. IF boiler water level low from bad pump or pump motor not engaging to fill/re-fill boiler heater shouldn't come on. At least you wouldn't want it to! Not positive if Bric' has low boiler water heater safety shutoff. I'd isolate and test the pump motor and pump and go from there.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Pulling Miss Silvia out of the attic after 2 years should prove to be interesting experience. She had been overhauled just before storing.
Ed

PS Condolences on your Volante being down! But it's good to have a back-up. I sold my PID'd auto-fill Silvia after getting my Bric'. Then later turned around and bought an Andrey off Craigslist for backup and travel. If your Silvia isn't PID'd try using flash flush-n-go rather than more talked about Silvia surf with long wait count methods. Works well with Audrey. From idle flush 'til heater comes and build shot. Heater should now be off and boiler around top of over heated. Start flash flush and at the same time turn on steam switch engaging heater. Count 3 or so seconds from end of flash lock and pull. Adjust count based on taste. Forcing heater on helps keep intra-shot temp from diving as much as waiting for heater to kick in low end of shot tstat deadband. This method goes through a lot of water but results are good and repeatable so I use it. Caveat don't know how well it works with 100 versus 110C tstat like in Audrey and older Silvia's but suspect it should work fine and with less flushing required since not over heated as much. Audrey really kicks out the steam from the group start of flash flush!

[edwa]

Hi Mike, thanks for the refresher on Silvia I realized I forgot my old procedure.
So, after power up there no longer is the click that I know so well. I wish I had stuck my finger in the stream to test the temperature. I imagine it would have had some residual warmth from the working shot pulled 2 hours prior.

Any suggestions on how I'd isolate and test the pump motor and pump?

[miKe mcKoffee]

Any suggestions on how I'd isolate and test the pump motor and pump?

I knew it was going to get deep and complicated! On reflection first thing I'd do is confirm the pump motor is getting power when it should be with a volt meter. In other words when lever lifted does the pump motor get power. Or if you disconnect the auto-fill level sesnor (like for boiler over-fill when descaling) does the motor get power. Fairly certain motor should be getting 110v AC. If getting power and the motor does not run likely bad motor, possibly starter capacitor. IIRC some motors the capacitor is internal, some external. I don't know how to test if the capacitor is good or bad off the top of my head, don't work with AC motors for a living and a long time since college and AC classes. But if the pump motor not getting power when it should I'd rig temporary AC to motor and confirm motor good. But the bad would be if and why the motor isn't getting power when it should versus motor replacement which would be relatively simple. Since it seems not running from switch activated by lever or when "told" to fill the boiler it's getting deep into troubleshooting. Don't know near enough to attempt to teach how to figure it out via the Net. Don't know if all commands to the motor go thru the Gicar brain or if lever switch direct to motor without Gicar control also does the auto-fill circuit go through the Gicar. Might be obvious tracing the wiring might not.

Of course the pump motor could be running and the pump not pumping...'nother area of troubleshooting I'm not qualified to attempt. I have some ideas what I'd do but not practical hands on experience.

Now why the heater isn't being "told" to come on (no relay click) I don't know. Again could be low boiler water level and solved when pump back running or could be it's brain dead Gicar. Heck or could be shot pstat not triggering the relay but since pump has issue pstat wouldn't be my first probable choice for no heat.

Sorry I can't be more help. I'm a DIYer not a professional espresso machine tech working on these things everyday. If you don't have the expertise may be time to pick up the phone...

[edwa]

Mike thank you once again for taking the time to reply. At the least you've given me one thing to try and that is to disconnect the auto-fill level sensor and I'll see what happens. It gives me more info to tell Jim at 1st-line in the morning. It would be an ironic zinger if it was the capacitor as I recently had to send back a CMH grinder for that reason - I think, because I still haven't heard back from Mary at Chris' Coffee.

[shadowfax]

Hi Ed! Sorry I missed the part about you being plumbed in and all--I guess that noise is some kind of resonance in the line from the restricted flow through the machine (restricted by design, not scale of course... my Vetrano does that at high inlet pressures).

It sounds like you're having a genuine electrical problem to me. The machine on, but doesn't heat up or activate the pump? Certainly, Mike's advice of checking whether the motor is getting power when it's supposed to is a good one. I would try to check connections all over inside the machine. Personally, considering that the heating element AND the pump are not going, I would guess that odds are good that neither of them failed and that something is awry with wiring or Gicar box. But, like Mike, I am only guessing, and I don't think I could be much help, so I think I'll stand aside.

[erics]

Ed -

Mike hit the nail on the head - yes, there exists two problems but surely they are caused by the same fault.

Firstly, I would disconnect and tape over one of the electrical connections to the heating element. Next would be to try and determine the level of water in the boiler. The easiest "thing" to remove is the vacuum breaker valve. Do this and stick a thin wooden dowel in the hole. Boiler water level should be AROUND 2/3 of the boiler diameter - maybe 3/4. If so, proceed.

Search for the safety thermostat and hopefully you will find it "popped". If so, reset it by pushing the red "button" in.

I'm thinking that the safety thermostat cuts off power to BOTH the heating element and the pump. Some machines do both and some only disable the heating element. By resetting the thermostat you should get a signal that the machine is trying to supply power to the heating element (disconnected) but the pump should hit ~ 9.0 bar during a flush.

Unplug machine and reconnect heating element. Now all that's left is to figure out why the safety thermostat opened up.

[edwa]

Hi Eric,

The water level was a little less than half and the safety thermostat wasn't popped up. I added water to put it back at 2/3 level. BTW adding the water and restarting didn't do anything.

To remove one of the heating element connections I'm assuming its one of the 4 coming out of the boiler does it matter which one to pull? They are just to the right of the red button, no? I disconnected the upper left black wire - no pump action.



Nicholas, the noise you heard I'm afraid was me jostling my little digital still camera that I put in movie mode. The dry Santa Ana winds are blowing and that other sound could have been tortured sinuses.

[erics]

Ed -

No need to remove connections (in the future, removing the two blacks would cut heating power). This is just a safety precaution in the event the boiler is low on water.

The uppermost terminal on your Mater pstat is the "common" (C) terminal. It gets power from the safety thermostat. With power on, see if the (C) terminal has 110-120V. If so, this would indicate that the safety thermostat is OK.

Try to obtain an electrical wiring diagram for your machine - it may be tough.

edit - can you take a pic of the Gicar controller wiring diagram and post same?

[mhoy]

Forgive me for asking as I'm sure you've checked this already. If it's connected to a GFI, perhaps it popped? Does the unit have power?

Mark

[miKe mcKoffee]

Never over look the basics, duh! Good point, confirm power and that it powers up.

[shadowfax]

Never over look the basics, duh! Good point, confirm power and that it powers up.

FWIW, the red light appears to be on in the OP's video...

[edwa]

I wish it were that easy, power is on and flipping the Volante's power switch lights up the red but the green light doesn't click on like it does when you hear the click of the relay.

Will check the pstat with a Multimeter as soon as I learn how not to electrocute myself:

Leads plugged into COM and V_mA (fused) ...can't type the Ohm symbol
Dial turned to V~ and at 200

Eric said the upper connection of the pstat is the common but where do I place the probe tips to check for 110V?

[edwa]

BTW, I have continuity when I put the probes on the top and bottom left contacts OR the top and bottom right contacts. I guess I still need to put a probe on the boiler wall and then on each of the leads to determine that the heating element is good?

[JohnPark]

Ed, I'm sorry I inadvertently put a hex on you by mentioning how your machine was doing fine while mine was having trouble! I wish I weren't so busy or I'd come down there with some tools to help out.

[shadowfax]

BTW, I have continuity when I put the probes on the top and bottom left contacts OR the top and bottom right contacts. I guess I still need to put a probe on the boiler wall and then on each of the leads to determine that the heating element is good?

Do you know what the resistance is (ohms) across the heating elements? You should be able to check by putting a lead on one white and one black one. pairs of blacks (and whites) should not have continuity. It appears from your picture (and the 4 leads into the element) that the Volante has 2 resistors in the element (which would allow it to heat at 2-3 settings).

Are you checking the elements with the wires connected or not? If the wires are connected, you may find it difficult to isolate what you are checking... if the element is broken and nothing else, then you should get continuity between the white and black (through the power side of the circuit). If the element works, you will get continuity from that. If you unplug the wires, you can check the heating elements by themselves. There should be 2 pairs that have continuity--not every combination will yield continuity of course. If those work, I think you may need to check the black and white wires, unfortunately while the machine is on. Don't let them touch, and use extreme caution. I would suggest a second opinion from someone with more experience than me before doing this....