Newbie looking for decent first machine...

[gtrman]

I'm looking to get into this home espresso thing for a couple reasons: one to save money on coffeehouse drink prices, and the other (and main reason) it seems like fun. I am in need of guidance as to what to buy. I've been doing some research and the Gaggia semi-autos, and the Rancilio Silvia seem like they would be good machines though I'm not sure if those are too over the top for a beginner. I would be using this primarily for family use (once or twice daily), light entertaining (no more 6-8 people), and most importantly, learning the craft. Any suggestions or feedback or whatever would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeff

[mgwolf]

Hi Jeff,
You might look on Coffeegeek.com which has similar threads several times each week. However, some points that would be of help in answering you are: 1)do you do milk drinks with regularity and need/want to steam, 2)what's your budget, 3)what's your budget after you buy the mandatory high-quality grinder for $200-$400. Most of the home espresso fanatics figured out long ago (and frequently remind themselves publicly) that they can get a payback on their (very) expensive home rigs after only 6 months of not going to Starbucks. So it will save some money, but the habit isn't particularly cheap since there are all sorts of nice accessories that one needs after awhile. However, the taste is really much better and it's fun. If you're interested in the taste/fun aspect and like playing around with mechanical equipment, you would probably be very happy with this hobby/fetish/calling. It helps if you like coffee.

Seriously, answer the above questions for us and budget first for a grinder, then work on the machine. You will not get satisfactory espresso out of any machine with a sub-par grinder. There are countless threads here and at coffeegeek on grinder choices too. More threads than grinders actually. michael

[erics]

I would be using this primarily for family use (once or twice daily), light entertaining (no more 6-8 people), and most importantly, learning the craft.

Jeff, welcome to Home Barista. In addition to what Michael said, check out the Resources section of this site for some beautifully written articles on "getting started" with espresso, in particular the "Espresso Guide" novelette by Jim Schulman.

The tough part of your intended use statement is the light entertaining. That would be stretching the capabilities of a Silvia or Gaggia to their limits and, even then, after a sometimes painful yet pleasure filled learning experience. Serving multiple coffee drinks pretty much requires a heat exchanger (hx) machine and for that I recommend you take a close look at the Anita and the comparable offerings ($ wise) from the vendors who advertise on this site. A Silvia or Gaggia plus grinder plus accessories would be ABOUT $750 whereas Anita plus grinder plus accessories would be ABOUT $1500.

Eric S.

[gtrman]

Thanks for the suggestions Michael and Eric! I guess I'm trying to keep all this under $1000 for now. That means going with the Anita and getting the accessories (specifically a grinder) would be tough for now. There are packages I've seen for about 700 that include what seems to be a decent Gaggia machine or the Silvia with the gaggia MDF or the rancilio rocky. So i guess the decision I have to make is get a complete setup with the gaggia or silvia packages, or go with the anita and wait on the other things (like a grinder and such) and use preground stuff to start learning. And also, would a gaggia or silvia be better gong that route and as far as the grinders go, are the rocky and mdf good grinders or should I invest in a beefier one? Lastly, what about the capresso frother express, could that compensate for one of the less pricier single boilers and while entertaining, or is the Anita machine the way to go?
Thanks again,
Jeff

[HB]

...or go with the anita and wait on the other things (like a grinder and such) and use preground stuff to start learning.

Don't be tempted by the Dark Side. Use the Force.

[TomP10]

Thanks for the suggestions Michael and Eric! I guess I'm trying to keep all this under $1000 for now.

Jeff:

For $1000 you can do better than a Silvia (I say this as a proud Silvia owner). Definitely call Chris Coffee and 1st-line and ask if they have any returns or "buyer remorse" machine. If you have a bit of patience, you can get an excellent machine for a big discount. Depending on what Chris or Jim has available, you may well find yourself with a Anita and a Rocky and still be under your budget.

I have a Silvia/Rocky combination. Silvia is a nice machine. For most people, it is the most they will ever need. If you are like me and really develop an interest and passion, then her limitations will frustrate you. While Silvia is often criticized as being tough to use, I think the main issue is that she is a single boiler machine. If all you will do is make espresso, then it is only a minor irritation. When I make cappas or lattes then it takes another 2 minutes to have her come up to steam temp. Sounds like a small issue, but it grows tiresome (and makes it really tedious to make cappas for more than a couple of people).

I think the Bezzera BZ02S (available at 1st-line) is a great deal for a basic HX machine. Chris' Anita is also strikes me as a good HX machine.

As far as the grinder goes, in NO way can it be considered optional. You are wasting your money on a good espresso machine if you don't get a good grinder. I find Rocky sufficient, but I have never used a higher-end grinder --- those who have all agree that shot quality improves. I also have a Virtuoso and Rocky is clearly a superior grinder.

Remember to budget another $100-$150 for extras --- like knock-box, milk thermometer, tamper, and maybe a bottomless portafilter.

Best of luck, - Tom

[edwa]

Jeff,

A little feedback on the MDF grinder. I have one that's almost 15 years old. I've replaced the burr's on it a few times, the body on this older model is made of metal with only a few plastic pieces - it was made like a tank. I used it happily for many years with my Gaggia Classic. BUT when I replaced the Classic to a Silvia the grinder could no longer dial in a satisfactory fineness for the Silvia. The grinds were either too coarse or too fine. As a stop gap I purchased a Solis Maestro which lasted just shy of 4 years and then broke in such a way it had too be tossed. Had I bought my current Mazzer Mini I would have saved myself some money and frustration. Hindsight is perfect and that is what I and others will hope to impart to you. Get a good grinder first.

Do yourself a favor, don't go the pre-ground coffee route. You will be frustrated with how your coffee tastes and mad that you spent the bucks on a machine that won't be able to perform to its potential.

Now, this next thought is easier to express than to do. If you can, get a demo. Maybe there is a member in your area who has a machine that you're considering and can show you the set-up and pull you a shot. So far in my "net" life I have met with only 3 people, two of which are Home-Barista members and one of those was a prospective buyer of a Bricc like mine. The third is a local roaster! You couldn't ask for a nicer bunch of people.

In the past I have gotten very valuable advice from Diane of 1st-line and Chris of Chriscoffee. Its not like going to a big discount store and asking questions to people who are only trying to push product out the door

[JR_Germantown]

...and getting the accessories (specifically a grinder)...

(sigh...)

The grinder is NOT the accessory in this equation. It is the foundation. Around here, the machine is often referred to as an accessory to the grinder.

Jack

[timo888]

You may also wish to consider a lever machine.

Since you mention entertaining now and then, you might like to check out the Ponte Vecchio Lusso which would be able to make enough straight espressos or milk-based espresso drinks for you and a few friends too. It couldn't handle a large dinner party, but a small one should be no problem. It would be a nice daily machine. It doesn't take very long to heat up and is fairly simple to operate.

On this type of lever machine, when you pull the lever, that action compresses a spring inside the group, and the spring's decompression provides the energy that forces the water through the coffee. Unlike the purely manual lever where your hand is pulling on the lever for the duration of the shot, the spring action frees your hands up to do the tasks and little chores associated with making espresso drinks, such as steaming milk, rinsing, grinding more beans, etc.

It is also silent My wife always commented how industrial the Silvia sounded. No way I could quietly pull myself an early morning cappa without waking her up, even with the doors closed, she and the machine on different floors of the house. Well, not literally. She was in bed and Silvia was on the counter in the kitchen.

With my lever machines, when I expect to be up early and she wants to sleep in, I grind some beans the night before (usually it's best to grind fresh) and then store the coffee in a little babyfood jar. Steaming the milk, I keep the tip of the wand deeper in the milk, so it isn't very noisy.

There is an avid group of lever aficionados on this site who would be happy to offer advice, information, and encouragement.

You can keep your cups on top of the machine.



Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

A lever machine is a valid option, especially when comparing cost. But they do take more time to master as a general rule. If you plan on being a 'casual' user i.e. not willing to put in the hours to learn, a pump may be a easier option.

[miKe mcKoffee]

A lever machine is a valid option, especially when comparing cost. But they do take more time to master as a general rule. If you plan on being a 'casual' user i.e. not willing to put in the hours to learn, a pump may be a easier option.

I'd tend to disagree with that to some extent. If not willing to put in the hours to learn, many many of them, virtually no machine recommended on this site will work to make quality espresso! The only machines with really short learning curves seem to be the consumer class with pressurized PFs or super-autos. No escaping the fact quality in the cup takes some effort to learn.

[timo888]

A lever machine is a valid option, especially when comparing cost. But they do take more time to master as a general rule. If you plan on being a 'casual' user i.e. not willing to put in the hours to learn, a pump may be a easier option.

The caveat above, about the learning curve, may apply to manual levers, where you have to master the pull; but it does not apply to spring-powered levers, IMO. With a spring-lever, once you have compressed the spring, the machine goes into auto-pilot mode so to speak. However, with a spring-lever you have an advantage over a pump: if you choose to do so, you can delay the auto-pilot mode, in order to control the critical preinfusion phase, simply by slowing the lever's rise with your hand for a few seconds. Once you feel the preinfusion is right, you simply let go of the lever, the spring takes over, and you can do whatever else you want to do for the next 25 seconds or so, as the shot completes. You could steam some milk, for example.

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

I'd tend to disagree with that to some extent. If not willing to put in the hours to learn, many many of them, virtually no machine recommended on this site will work to make quality espresso! The only machines with really short learning curves seem to be the consumer class with pressurized PFs or super-autos. No escaping the fact quality in the cup takes some effort to learn.

What miKe says is true. There is a class of no-brainer machine that produces mediocre and often sub-mediocre espresso. This class of machine doesn't even require the barista to master the grind, dose, distribution, and tamp.

All of the machines above this class, machines that can produce world-class espresso, do require the barista to master grind, dose, distribution, and tamp. However, a manual lever, which gives you control over the brew pressure, offers the barista a wider range of possibilities in this regard. This is the bonus for the additional learning curve of a manual lever. For example, with a manual lever, one could grind quite coarsely, tamp lightly, and, to compensate, pull very gently to prolong the extraction to 25-35 seconds, and produce a delicious cup of espresso. The same cake of coffee would not produce good results if placed in a machine whose brew pressure was a constant, whether that be a spring lever or a pump machine, although if you really wanted to do so, you could slow the decompression of the spring manually for the duration of the shot, instead of simply during the preinfusion phase, and approximate the results of a manual lever pulled very gently.

Regards
Timo

[HB]

The only machines with really short learning curves seem to be the consumer class with pressurized PFs or super-autos.

Nowadays I recommend that budding espresso lovers also consider part-time use of a machine with a really short learning curve: a French press. Seriously! Since you've already invested in a good grinder, you can enjoy the results on mornings you're too rushed to fuss with learning the ropes of making espresso at home.

Lever machines are a lot of fun, but it's clear to me that they require more skill and understanding of the process than typical pump-driven espresso machines to deliver the same result. For example, the Cremina and Microcasa have "sweet spots" for brew temperature that change as they sit idle. You have to pay attention to how many shots you've pulled, warm up flushes, idle time, etc. It's not rocket science, but you do need time to develop the understanding and intuition.

I'm reminded of one of my first lessons with Steve "Leader of the LMWDP" Robinson. I brought my thermocouples to plot out the temperature profile, timers, digital scales, pressure gauges... the whole ball of wax. He rolled his eyes and wiggle half-flushed the Cremina a couple times, put his hand on the group for a second, and said "It's ready." The subsequent espresso he pulled was one of the better the Cremina every produced.

[timo888]

Lever machines are a lot of fun, but it's clear to me that they require more skill and understanding of the process than typical pump-driven espresso machines to deliver the same result. For example, the Cremina and Microcasa have "sweet spots" for brew temperature that change as they sit idle. You have to pay attention to how many shots you've pulled, warm up flushes, idle time, etc. It's not rocket science, but you do need time to develop the understanding and intuition.

With an HX pump machine, similar issues present themselves: you have to learn the machine's thermal charactertistics to be able to do appropriate cooling flushes from idle; you have to learn about the machine's rebound times to know how much time you have after a cooling flush in which to pull the shot before the temperature climbs back up again.

It seems to me that managing temperature on an HX takes no less skill.

Another benefit of a machine like the Lusso, for the two-cappas-a-day consumer, is that it heats up in only 10-12 minutes, rather than 30-45 for a large prosumer HX.

Regards
Timo

[HB]

It seems to me that managing temperature on an HX takes no less skill.

Which requires more skill is a matter of opinion. I certainly agree that an attentive home barista can manage either without undue difficultly.

Speaking specifically of the Cremina, Microcasa, and an HX espresso machine, there are noteworthy differences. Firstly, you can repeat your experiments over and over again with an HX. With the Cremina and Microcasa, the brew temperature is a constantly moving target and there isn't a reliable way to "reset" to a known state in short order (other than turning it off and letting it cool down).

Secondly, in contrast to the Cremina and Microcasa, the more you use an HX machine, the easier it is to manage its brew temperature. Subsequently you can reduce shot-to-shot temperature management to rote instruction, as suggested by Bob Yellin's keep-it-simple rules for HX flushing:

1. If the machine has been idle for awhile, flush 6 ounces
2. Or, if the machine has been idle around three minutes, flush 2 ounces
3. Wait 30 seconds and start the extraction.

This works well for most HX espresso machines and will deliver more stable intra-shot brew temperatures than either the Cremina or Microcasa.

Another benefit of a machine like the Lusso, for the two-cappas-a-day consumer, is that it heats up in only 10-12 minutes, rather than 30-45 for a large prosumer HX.

Agreed, my Microcasa goes from stone cold to ready to go in 12 minutes flat.

[cannonfodder]

If not willing to put in the hours to learn, many many of them, virtually no machine recommended on this site will work to make quality espresso! The only machines with really short learning curves seem to be the consumer class with pressurized PFs or super-autos. No escaping the fact quality in the cup takes some effort to learn.

Most definitely.

Espresso is not necessarily the easiest thing to learn. It is not overly difficult either, but it does take more effort than 'dump coffee into basket and push brew'. Which is where the super auto comes into play. While it will not produce a stellar cup, it will produce an adequate and easy cup. Certainly much better than what you will get from a 'real' espresso machine and a user with no interest in learning how to use the tool.

A press pot and good grinder makes a wonderful cup as well. Much better than anything you will get from the best espresso machine on the market and a can of preground espresso beans. The grinder MUST be purchased with the machine.

[gtrman]

Thanks everyone for the advice! I guess I should up my grinder budget (looking at the Mazzer Mini w/doser or the electronic timer model or the Macap M4 w/doser). As for the machine, I've decided to set aside some money on a weekly basis and get someting in the Gaggia $500 and under line (or the Silvia) relatively soon, or save for longer and go with a shiny HE machine. Still undecided though.

-Jeff

P.S. Everyone who recommended a press pot was absolutely right. I bought the small Bodum press pot ($12, Brazil I think its called) and a $20 Cuisinart blade grinder, and the end result is infinitely tastier than the Gevalia Kaffe model drip machine that cost probably 3 or 4 times more. Plus its quicker

[HB]

I bought the small Bodum press pot ($12, Brazil I think its called) and a $20 Cuisinart blade grinder...

Did you say a blade grinder?!? That's it, release the dogs!

[gtrman]

Yes....I did say blade grinder. However, it is actually not so bad a thing as A) I don't have the cash for a real nice grinder right now. B) Inexpensive. C) I guess I now know the value of grinding immediately before making the coffee. Whether or not its a blade grinder, its still much better than preground coffee.