New model Hottop KN-8828B first look

[Randy G.]

I have just posted a first look at the new model Hottop Coffee Roaster (KN-8828B) on my website:
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
- or -
http://home.surewest.net/frcn/Coffee/
(same place either way)
The review is linked at the very top of the far-right hand column. It is a first look at a beta control board. Changes have already been made to the programming. Detailed info and roasting graphs will follow at the end of the week (I hope) after my production model arrives. Full disclaimer at the top of the review.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Great 1st Look and looks like potentially best HotTop yet. Only weaknesses or things I'd wish it could do that sprang to mind is ability to save more than 3 memorized manually run roasts (profiles) and the ability to edit/tweak a previously saved profile without re-running roast and manually changing during the roast then saving. Of course now we're talking a totally different model which would combine the features of the new guy and current programable model!

[Randy G.]

That is just one of the things that came to mind. I think that they should have traded the ten levels of heating element power for a couple more memory locations. But three should cover most users, and you can modify those on the fly without having to save them at the end, so if you have three "foundation profiles" it should be OK for most. I discovered with the "P" is that with any such roaster there is only so much potential to heat- there is no more than a 100% duty cycle. What I have been doing is running the "P" at full power until first crack begins then using the exothermic energy as well as built up heat to carry the beans through first, giving about a 90-120 second pause, then cranking it back to 100% heat to run into active second. makes for a nice espresso roast. You can read my review on the "P" which gives more insight into that since they are the same roaster with different interfaces.

I hope they take this technology and R+D investment and move on. I like the 8828 line but there is no room to increase BTUs nor capacity, but they have learned a lot from the development and I am hoping to see a larger capacity roaster some time in the future. And no, that isn't a hint. I have no idea what, if anything, is next.

I will post to this thread when i get the update online- hopefully in about a week.

[miKe mcKoffee]

...But three should cover most users, and you can modify those on the fly without having to save them at the end, so if you have three "foundation profiles" it should be OK for most...

Don't get me wrong, wasn't implying 3 saved profiles was a glaring weakness. If it had 5 I'd probably say why not 10. Yet without having to save a tweaked profile is different than not being able to save a tweaked profile without loosing an already saved profile. Though personally I disagree on trading ability to more finely finesse heat as an appropriate trade off for more memory locations. (memory being relatively cheap) IMO more control is better, whether usually needed or not. That said having the ability to coast through 1st at 60 versus 70 versus 80% etc. heater power could/would result in differing results, one more appropriate for a given bean/brewing method/personal preference than another. Greater profile control is always (potentially) better than less IMO.

But yes I'm biased being accustomed to infinitely variable roaster control. Plus have seen what a HotTop is truly capable of with total manual or automated roast control ala Jeffrey's CCR HotTop.

Which isn't to say the new HotTop won't be a giant step in a good direction!

[Randy G.]

Don't get me wrong, wasn't implying 3 saved profiles was a glaring weakness. If it had 5 I'd probably say why not 10. ..........

I remember back when the first model came out and it was abut $550 I think, and I discussed with Hottop the possibility of a USB interface for external control/logging/programming, and they said everyone wants more but no one wants to pay. A few years later and with the "P" they are selling a roaster that is just over $900, without the USB... Go figure. I guess that's why I work as a graphic artist and not in marketing!

I do find it interesting that the new "B" offers more precise control, better interface, and a more readable display than the "P" all at a lower cost than the "P."

But yes I'm biased being accustomed to infinitely variable roaster control. Plus have seen what a HotTop is truly capable of with total manual or automated roast control ala Jeffrey's CCR HotTop.

Which isn't to say the new HotTop won't be a giant step in a good direction!

I will say that one of the worst cups of coffee I have had in the last few years was from coffee roasted in a CCR... roasted by Jeffrey himself, so precise control isn't always enough. [I am sure I will hear about that, but the coffee really was quite poor- happens to us all.. just this AM to me as a matter of fact.]

I have talked to Jeff about his roaster, and I think there is a lot of room in the market below his extremely precise, lab-quality (and expensive) roaster for something with good control and computer interface. I am hoping that Hottop thinks the same way and will adapt their knowledge to something in the 1KG range with a larger heating element that could respond faster. See- I can dream as well!

Since I have never had this level of control over a roast I will have to learn to walk again. I like the shorter roast that the control gives (over the original) and it will be interesting to play. But with a short roast it doesn't leave a lot of time to idle along. I like the pause between first and second and I am beginning to play with leveling out the curve for a period of about a minute or two, somewhere in the 325 to 375 range- just to extend the drying period a bit, and just because I now can!

It's sort of like getting a new car with GPS in dash- suddenly you're not lost... IF you learn how to use it... I'm still a bit lost. BTW- I think that the new board is here at the P.O. and I should have it Monday, so updates by the end of the week... Stay tuned.

[harris]

Randy,

If I read your first look correctly, the beans eject if user selects a lower temp? So if after the first crack I wanted to slow down into the second by lowering the temp it would eject the beans?

h

[Randy G.]

Randy,
If I read your first look correctly, the beans eject if user selects a lower temp? So if after the first crack I wanted to slow down into the second by lowering the temp it would eject the beans?

I wil check that wording..

There are two temperature inputs:

The first is the "TARGET TEMPERATURE." This is the numeric input. If the roaster achieves this temperature at any time the beans are ejected. This is true even during the roast. So if you lower the target temperature to equal the current temperature, the beans eject. basically, there is no reason to lower the target temperature, and little reason for it to be there other than if you want the beans to automatically eject at XX degrees. I just set it to its maximum and forget it because I ALWAYS manually eject the bean to end the roast when I want. The target Temperature allows you to roast to a given level without hovering over the machine waiting for the right moment.. if a specific temperature is the right moment for you.

The second is the heating element power control. This is the bar graph at the bottom of the readout. This controls the heating elements BTU output in 10% power increments.

If you think of the roaster as a car- the Target Temperature is the destination and the Heating Element power control is the throttle.

I hope that helps...

[miKe mcKoffee]

I will say that one of the worst cups of coffee I have had in the last few years was from coffee roasted in a CCR... roasted by Jeffrey himself, so precise control isn't always enough. [I am sure I will hear about that, but the coffee really was quite poor- happens to us all.. just this AM to me as a matter of fact.]

Absolutely agree. Having precise control is just a tool. Precisely controlling a user input funky profile results in funky roast. Obviously can be a matter of taste perference too.

[5thumbs]

I have been using the profile that is described in the manual for the Hottop programmable. It is GREAT! I roast only for drip but found this program works great. I just let it hit a roaring 1st crack, then slow down, then I turn the heater off, wait a respite of 2 minutes then fire the element back on to desired roast level. MMMMMmmmmmm

[Martin]

I have been using the profile that is described in the manual for the Hottop programmable. It is GREAT! I roast only for drip but found this program works great. I just let it hit a roaring 1st crack, then slow down, then I turn the heater off, wait a respite of 2 minutes then fire the element back on to desired roast level. MMMMMmmmmmm

I don't get it. This doesn't sound to me like either using program or having precise control. Although I do not question that 5thumbs is accomplishing a very fine roast. "Precise" to me would be a digi readout that lets me see the chamber/bean temp while I follow the speed of ramp along with listening to and observing the progress of the crack and color.

OK, I'll give up the smell, if I have to. I'd also like to be able to do a 10 oz green roast, but let's not quibble.

Seriously, which Hottop (current or on the horizon) or impending roaster will (nearly) let me do this?
Martin

[5thumbs]

Perhaps I posted in the wrong place. I was merely tipping my hat to Randy for the profile he described in the hottop manual. I have the Programable version. I roast by sound and temperature. Until recently I have been using a Hottop Digital with a wire probe inserted in the beans. I am going to do the more permanant modification.... Anyway, I withdraw my comments if you are looking for a evalation of accuracy and control. I do still thank Randy for his sugggestion on getting the most out of the Advanced manual control. If anyone has any other ideas on how to use the B or P model's ability to modify on the fly, please let us know so we can make use of these features..

[Randy G.]

.... "Precise" to me would be a digi readout that lets me see the chamber/bean temp while I follow the speed of ramp along with listening to and observing the progress of the crack and color.

Speed of ramp is not something I have seen in any home roaster as far as any sort of graphic display- either in a graph form or in a degree/sec readout or such.

As I have said in the past (and in my review) I am not a big fan of the programming of the "KN-8828P" model with its three minute segments. I told Hottop that as soon as it was released and I still am of the same opinion. I am not saying it is a bad roaster- just that it could have been a lot better in some ways. It can be used to set a ramp and then manually controlled using the manual temperature adjustment to turn the heating element on or off at the chosen moment and the fan speed can also assist.

On the other hand, the new B model may be closer to what you seek. Take a look at the owner's manual which can be downloaded in its entirety from the Hottop USA website in PDF format. I think that might answer most of your questions. But basically, you can manually control a roast all the way through (adjusting teh heating elements power in 10% increments from 0 to 100%) and the fan speed ion 20% increments from 0 to 100%) any time to any level during the roast, and when the roast concludes, if you wish, save the roast using the "Stor" option and it can be repeated again in the future.

[Martin]

Speed of ramp is not something I have seen in any home roaster as far as any sort of graphic display- either in a graph form or in a degree/sec readout or such.

actually, what I have in mind is a real-time temp read-out. That, plus a timer, is all that I'd require.

Take a look at the owner's manual which can be downloaded in its entirety from the Hottop USA website in PDF format. I think that might answer most of your questions.

Read! What a concept! I will do that.

if you wish, save the roast using the "Stor" option and it can be repeated again in the future.

The permutations and limitations of my blending, cupping capacity, memory, record keeping, low volume (2 lbs/week), and impulse-driven roasting make stored profiles a silly pursuit. I've already got a chamber, agitation, ability to add or cut heat; I'm just looking to add real-time temp data to the chip between my ears.
Martin

[luca]

Randy,

The roaster that I work for once commented that the hottop roast in reverse - ie. you drop the beans in with the drum pretty cold, then it heats up. With the "B" control panel, can you now roast "forwards" - ie. preheat the drum up to, say, 180C and then drop the beans in?

Cheers,

Luca

[Randy G.]

Randy,

The roaster that I work for once commented that the hottop roast in reverse - ie. you drop the beans in with the drum pretty cold, then it heats up. With the "B" control panel, can you now roast "forwards" - ie. preheat the drum up to, say, 180C and then drop the beans in?

Cheers,

Luca

All Hottops have always had a warm up mode in the programming. Start the roaster and wait until the roaster hits about 166. At that point it beeps and starts the roast cycle whether it was the earlier models with the pre-set factory curve or the later programmable models. Even the new KN-8828B with manual control has this feature. You can drop the beans in at any time you like but if done real early in the preheat cycle it dramatically lengthens the time the beans are subjected to the heat of roasting which was the major complaint I had concerning the first two models - the KN-8828 and the KN-8828D. If you try to do back-to-back roasts and the roaster is still hot inside, it will even cool itself by running an extended cooling cycle to bring itself down to about 140-150 (I don't remember the exact temp) and then begin the same preheat again to get back to 166.

[luca]

OK, so let's say that instead of dropping at 166F, I want to drop at 350F. I just let the roaster run until it hits 350F, then dump my beans and continue to roast as normal, right? And from what you have said, if I want to roast two batches back to back with a 350F drop temperature, I have to do the first batch, then wait for the roaster to cool, then heat it up again. Is that right?!

Is there a safety time limit that the roast must be completed by? If there is, is there any risk that dumping after an extended preheat would make the roast time needed run over the time limit?

Cheers,

Luca

[Randy G.]

I am in the midst of writing a review of the Gene Cafe, so my brain is feeling a bit roasted, but I will try to answer:

OK, so let's say that instead of dropping at 166F, I want to drop at 350F. I just let the roaster run until it hits 350F, then dump my beans and continue to roast as normal, right?

I assume that we are discussing the KN-8828B (the newest model). Reading your post carefully it seems that "dump" means pour the beans into the roaster to begin roasting. If you want to get a shorter roast by adding the beans later in the roasting cycle when the machine is hotter, that can be done without a problem, but remember that no electric roaster can roast faster than having a 100% heating element duty cycle. That is, if the heating element is on all the time, that is as fast/hot as it can roast. So even if you add the beans later in the roast cycle when the heat in the chamber is higher, the temperature will drop dramatically and then have to heat up again. Beyond that, the hotter the chamber the greater the risk of tipping or scorching the surface of the beans. There is also the problem of leaving the center of the beans less-roasted than the outer portions if you start too hot and end too soon.

And from what you have said, if I want to roast two batches back to back with a 350F drop temperature, I have to do the first batch, then wait for the roaster to cool, then heat it up again. Is that right?!

Yes. The machine always starts at the same point of about 166F. If it senses that it is hotter than that when you begin a roast the machine will go into an extended cooling cycle until it hits about 150F and then it will begin the preheating. This is to establish a consistent starting point for every roast.

Is there a safety time limit that the roast must be completed by? If there is, is there any risk that dumping after an extended preheat would make the roast time needed run over the time limit?

You can add the beans at any time you like, but once the roast begins (after the cooling cycle completes), regardless of when you add the beans, the roast cannot go for more than a total of 25:00.

if you are looking for more manual control and what a roaster to work as YOU wish, regardless of the outcome, I suggest getting the basic model and hacking it. The control panel can be removed and the ribbon cable used to control ALL functions of the roaster it is easy. Black is common, and red is hot. Jumping RED to each of the remaining wires will operate the various roaster functions:
-Heating element
-Drum Motor
-Cooling fan
-Main fan
-Eject solenoid
The use of toggle switches and the addition of a thermocouples to monitor chamber temperature and bean temperature would be all that was needed. Other than that, the new "B" model basically supplies those functions if you aren't too annoyed by the auto cool/preheat. it also adds control of the heating element in 10% increments and main fan control in 25% increments.

Am I getting closer to an answer?

[Randy G.]

actually, what I have in mind is a real-time temp read-out. That, plus a timer, is all that I'd require.

The KN-8828B has a temperature readout that does not display bean temperature. It does show chamber temperature, but at about 400 degrees, just as first crack begins, is accurate and reflects bean temperature as the two data sets cross on the graph. So while not totally accurate it is consistent and the error is predictable. The timer is a countdown timer so can be a bit confusing. Like others have stated in the past, I would prefer a count-up timer. When you try to document a roast and use figures from a data logging device, it can be very confusing with one device counting up and another counting down.

How long has the roast gone so far? Let's see... 22:30 programmed counting down to 9:15 remaining...

That is not that difficult to figure out, but when monitoring a roast, listening for cracks, adjusting heating element and fan speeds, making written notes for future reference, and answering the phone all at the same time, "base 60" math can be a challenge.

[luca]

Thanks for that, Randy; just wanted to be clear on what it does and does not do before a friend of mine goes and drops a few hundred bucks to upgrade his digital. Or maybe that could more easily be hacked ...

Cheers,

Luca

[cannonfodder]

I have the older D model hottop and it serves me well. While I do miss the finite control I had with my homemade drum roaster, but I find what I get from the machine more than adequate for my skill level.

As a general guide, when I am roasting small batches, say a 4 bean espresso blend and I roast each varietal by itself, and I normally do 10oz of green which is around a half pound roasted, some of my quantities can be quite small, 2.5oz small. In those instances, the beans will preheat and dry faster than large batches so I do not need the long preheat cycle. So I set my timer for 19 minutes, check the temp until my roast chamber is at 200F and then charge the drum. That shortens my cycle but still avoids transitioning from the drying stage to the roasting stage before the greens are up to temperature.

When doing a large batch, which requires a longer drying cycle I charge the roaster once the 'ready to go' beep sounds.

A smaller batch heats faster but does not carry as much momentum so the roasting can be slowed by opening the chaff tray and raising the charcoal filter in front of the fan (but don't remove it). That will move more air through the roaster and slow the roast process to draw out the first to second transition time.

With a big batch, you have much more mass and it is harder to slow the roast using the same trick. Keep in mind that through the roasting process you are dealing with an endothermic reaction as the beans approach first crack. Once first begins it changes to an exothermic, the beans are no longer taking heat but giving their own heat up in addition to what the roaster is pumping in. That open the chaff tray and slide the filter up trick does not work quite as well. If the roaster is pumping in heat while the beans are also giving up heat, the roast blasts through first crack and starts second in a minute. Not nearly long enough for that wonderful Maillard reaction to work its voodoo and caramelize the sugars in the beans to their fullest.

So I guess the point of all this rambling is that if your friend with the D model is unhappy with the profile he gets, he could try that chaff tray and fan filter trick to slow the roast or try a smaller batch before he drops the $$$ on a new programmable unit. He (or she) could hack it like Ian did and make it a manual control unit. Having a working unit but wanting more control, I would hack my roaster before I dropped the cash on the new version.