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New model Hottop KN-8828B first look - Page 2

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.

Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Randy G. on Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:43 pm

cannonfodder wrote:I have the older D model hottop and it serves me well. While I do miss the finite control I had with my homemade drum roaster, but I find what I get from the machine more than adequate for my skill level.
Just the "D" model? I have one of each... :wink:
Seriously, with experience with all 4 models, the new B is closest to what I envisioned from the beginning for them. I personally find little use for the ability to change the heating element in levels by 10% increments, and would have been more then happy to have 0-50%-100% settings. Some may find the 10% increments handy and it's better to have more than less control. You could always just use the 10% setting to roast almonds. ;-)

Once first begins it changes to an exothermic, the beans are no longer taking heat but giving their own heat up in addition to what the roaster is pumping in. That open the chaff tray and slide the filter up trick does not work quite as well. If the roaster is pumping in heat while the beans are also giving up heat, the roast blasts through first crack and starts second in a minute. Not nearly long enough for that wonderful Maillard reaction to work its voodoo and caramelize the sugars in the beans to their fullest.
I first was able to really see that with the P model when I turned off the heating element just after 1st started and watched the temperature in the chamber continue to rise. Just a little too much fun!

cannonfodder wrote:So I guess the point of all this rambling is that if your friend with the D model is unhappy with the profile he gets, he could try that chaff tray and fan filter trick to slow the roast or try a smaller batch before he drops the $$$ on a new programmable unit. He (or she) could hack it like Ian did and make it a manual control unit. Having a working unit but wanting more control, I would hack my roaster before I dropped the cash on the new version.
If he has the "D+" model with the deeper chaff tray then removing he chaff tray will not work. That model has a switch that is depressed by the tray and if the tray is pulled out the cooling cycle begins immediately and the beans are ejected.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Abe Carmeli on Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:48 am

Randy G. wrote:There are two temperature inputs:

The second is the heating element power control. This is the bar graph at the bottom of the readout. This controls the heating elements BTU output in 10% power increments.

If you think of the roaster as a car- the Target Temperature is the destination and the Heating Element power control is the throttle.

I hope that helps...


I'm puzzled why they chose to use a BTU output control readout for the most important control on a roaster - roasting temperature. It must take a lot of try and error to figure out the translation to chamber temperature. Or perhaps it is because fan control will affect chamber temperature?
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Randy G. on Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:24 am

Abe Carmeli wrote:I'm puzzled why they chose to use a BTU output control readout for the most important control on a roaster - roasting temperature. It must take a lot of try and error to figure out the translation to chamber temperature. Or perhaps it is because fan control will affect chamber temperature?
Since I come to HB from a group that was working on a more remedial level, I have been slow to adapt to the scientific nature of this group. I should probably have NOT said "BTU." More accurately, I should have just said "heater power level."

A control that allowed choosing a specific temperature on the Hottop would have been nice, but I think it would have required that they redesign the thermal sensing circuit. I will guess that the large mass of the sensor they currently use, its location out of the bean mass for a good portion of the roast, and the fact that the machine uses varying levels of air flow would make temperature-sensing accuracy a bit more difficult than with other machines like the Gene Cafe. On the other hand, since the machine does not display accurate bean temperature, what is the point of having power level control in 10% increments? It does allow a slower ramp up to first, but to use it effectively means you need to either record temperatures and graph them after the roast (or vice versa), and/or the user needs to add a bean temperature sensor like I did.

The Gene Cafe allows the user set a temperature in degrees for the roaster to achieve and it achieves and effectively holds that temperature but it does not control the rate. The Hottop gives the ability to adjust heater power levels to change the rate of temperature rise but does not allow the user to preselect the temperature to be achieved. A better choice may have been to design the roaster so that you could tell it to take five minutes to achieve 300 degrees, or similar. That would add cost as well.

IMO, as I mentioned, I think that a heater control of 0%-50%-100% would have been sufficient for the current control system of the new Hottop KN-8828B model..
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by cpl593h on Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:07 am

I'd like to chime in and clarify what luca was getting at: the SOP for commercial drum roasts.

The hottop starts with a relatively low drop in temperature, 166F as you say. The profile then necessitates that more heat be added during the roast.

Contrast this with a large drum roaster, in which the drop-in temperature is well above 350F. The drum is heated to the desired drop in temperature with the gas on full, then the beans are dropped in. In 1-2 minutes, the beans will stop cooling the drum, and the overall roaster temperature will 'bottom out' before it starts to rise again. From then on, gas adjustments are subtractive.

The hottop, as luca pointed out, works 'backwards'; the drop in temperature is low, and for the remainder of the lead-in to first crack, heater adjustments are additive. I imagine that this has to do with the mass of the drum: in a large commercial drum roaster, the proportion of the mass of the drum compared to the beans is very high, where the drum/charge ratio in the hottop is probably much, much lower.

I may be getting a new hottop B in the near future. I'll certainly try to take the subtractive heat approach, at least to experiment.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Randy G. on Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:49 pm

cannonfodder wrote:.......So I guess the point of all this rambling is that if your friend with the D model is unhappy with the profile he gets, he could try that chaff tray and fan filter trick to slow the roast or try a smaller batch before he drops the $$$ on a new programmable unit. He (or she) could hack it like Ian did and make it a manual control unit. Having a working unit but wanting more control, I would hack my roaster before I dropped the cash on the new version.


The hack to control the heating element is quite easy. A very small SPST switch can be installed to interrupt the heating element. That would add binary control to override the machines control over the roast. It should be connected to the heating element control wire at the control panel on the multi-wire connector. I think Ian has it documented somewhere...? With a bit of creativity it can be fairly easily concealed.

To lower the temperature at any point you can also lift the bean loading chute cover.

The problem with pulling the chaff tray is that if the main fan is on, the chaff can/will be pulled out of the tray and into the roaster. When using this method be sure to take care in case of fire (the air stirring the chaff and the increased oxygen inflow can cause ignition in the tray) , and be sure to thoroughly clean out the roasting chamber after each roast.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Randy G. on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:13 pm

cpl593h wrote:I may be getting a new hottop B in the near future. I'll certainly try to take the subtractive heat approach, at least to experiment.

I think your statements are correct, and accurate when discussing all home roasters-- at least all the ones I have used (Hearthware Gourmet, Precision, iRoast2, Hottop (all models), and Gene Cafe. Some are forced to be additive since the beans are added before the roast is even begun. For the rest I would guess (and it is only a guess) that it is a matter of total mass as you suggested and the ability to supply enough heat energy using electricity in a small home appliance. The only possible exception that comes to mind might be a BBQ drum conversion. Ayedunno..

I am thinking that the mass of metal of a commercial drum roaster supplies its heat from the metal of the roaster itself so the heat energy from the gas flame has to be turned down a bit during the roast. heck- the front cover of a small Probat weighs more than ten Hottops! In the home roaster the heating element has to be turned up (or more accurately, left on) during most of the roast because there is not enough mass of metal to store any heat. Active vs. passive if you like...

In either case, if the temperature in the drum is decreased (or more accurately, if the temperature of the beans is allowed to drop) during the roast, the coffee will suffer. The same can be said if you tease the roast (bring the temperature up too slowly). I learned that first hand (Thanks, Barry). Balsa wood flavored coffee...Yuchhh!

In a large pro, gas-fired commercial roaster, if you leave the heat on all through the roast you burn or tip the beans. if you turn the heat down in a small home roaster you stall the roast and end up with bad coffee.

I suppose I am stating the obvious to any pro roaster, and the above is pretty basic stuff.

Maybe some thermal engineer/scientist sort-of-guy [Greg] who now hangs around here [Scace] can give a more scientific explanation... :wink:
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Abe Carmeli on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:16 pm

I installed the upgraded model B motherboard and control panel a couple of weeks ago. It basically gives me all I need from a home roaster - hand on the throttle control on both heat element and fan. As Randy noted, it also allows me to save 3 roast profiles. I am now able to control the time between 1st and 2nd crack, and also the ramp up to 1st crack. As to time frame for the upgrade job, it took me 2 hours total, and that included cleaning up the guts of the roaster. I was amazed to see how much chaff is collected in the roaster's internals. I wanted to replace the temperature probe as well, but that one is practically impossible to do without a workshop. It is screwed in alright, but the screws are in hard to reach angles and requires special tools.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by cannonfodder on Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:39 pm

I was surprised by that as well. I opened it up one day just to clean out and had lots of chaff in the chassis.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Randy G. on Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:24 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote: I was amazed to see how much chaff is collected in the roaster's internals.

I remember early on when I disassembled the first Hottop for my first review, when I went to reinstall the main fan I put it in backwards- blowing IN through the electronics and out the drum... It seemed to me to make sense that way- why pull all that chaff and heat through the electronics.

The chaff and crud does build up in the rear of teh machine, so I use the compressor to blow the thing out every four or five roasts or so. I pull and rear filter and blow front to rear, and then rear to front, and repeat a few times. It is quite effective. Be sure to avoid displacing the top filter medium and do not over-rev the fans. The blades of the main fan seem to get a bit brittle with age, so if you have a long nozzle on the air gun be careful not to hit the blade when it is spinning.

No compressor, stand it nose-up and use the exhaust blower of a shop vac.

I wanted to replace the temperature probe as well, but that one is practically impossible to do without a workshop. It is screwed in alright, but the screws are in hard to reach angles and requires special tools.

The readout on the LCD is useful to see the approach of first crack. In mine it always hits 399 or 400 F. at the first few click of first. A bean temp readout is nice to have if you like to roast to a temp. I did it this way:
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from Espresso! My Espresso! used with permission
(from http://home.surewest.net/frcn/Cof...wToHottopTemp.html)

I used a Whitney punch to make the holes, then cleaned them up with a small file. If you make them just inaccurate enough, the spring force of the flap keeps the probe in Place... USE CARE: If you insert the probe too far, particularly in later models with the rear drum support, the probe gets bent. Really, really bent...
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Abe Carmeli on Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:41 pm

Randy,

Thanks for the bean probe modification instructions. They are wonderful and it is quite amusing to realise you don't remember at all doing that mod for me :wink: . Your bean mass probe shows how problematic is the position of the original HT probe. It is highly affected by the temperature of the metal plate it is attached too, and doesn't accurately report the real air temperature in the drum. (let alone bean mass temperature).
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Randy G. on Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:23 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote:Randy,

Thanks for the bean probe modification instructions. They are wonderful and it is quite amusing to realize you don't remember at all doing that mod for me :wink: . Your bean mass probe shows how problematic is the position of the original HT probe. It is highly affected by the temperature of the metal plate it is attached too, and doesn't accurately report the real air temperature in the drum. (let alone bean mass temperature).
Oh, Hell, Abe. I don't remember what I had for breakfast! :oops: Other than the excellent cappuccino, that is.. :wink:

I think that the factory temperature sensor is more accurate than folks give it credit for.. being. I have played with a wire thermocouple placed in different areas in the drum and moving it just a little makes a difference. The fact that first crack always takes place at an indicated 400 at least indicates that the factory probe is consistent and that really is all you need.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by cannonfodder on Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:34 pm

I have some high temperature thermocouple wire that I was going to weld together. I thought of drilling a small hole near the back bottom plate just above where the drum sits. I could pass a small hollow stainless tube through it and tack weld it to the backing. Then pass the thermocouple through it and secure it in place with a dab of high temp epoxy. Then I could use the display for the environment temp and the probe for the bean mass.

The problem I have is that I normally run small batches. Most of my blends consist of 10 ounces of green for a half pound of roasted coffee (or close to it). Some of the batches are only a couple of ounces so the roaster temperature is next to worthless.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by boar_d_laze on Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:50 pm

Randy G. wrote:I am thinking that the mass of metal of a commercial drum roaster supplies its heat from the metal of the roaster itself so the heat energy from the gas flame has to be turned down a bit during the roast. heck- the front cover of a small Probat weighs more than ten Hottops! In the home roaster the heating element has to be turned up (or more accurately, left on) during most of the roast because there is not enough mass of metal to store any heat. Active vs. passive if you like...

In either case, if the temperature in the drum is decreased (or more accurately, if the temperature of the beans is allowed to drop) during the roast, the coffee will suffer. The same can be said if you tease the roast (bring the temperature up too slowly). I learned that first hand (Thanks, Barry). Balsa wood flavored coffee...Yuchhh!

In a large pro, gas-fired commercial roaster, if you leave the heat on all through the roast you burn or tip the beans. if you turn the heat down in a small home roaster you stall the roast and end up with bad coffee. . . .



First caveat: I've noticed that folks around here can demand a high level of accuracy and get very "technical" about the central and side issues. The explanation is pretty much "Physics for Poets," with all its limitations. Not only am I not Greg Scace, but I'm neither a physicist nor a poet.

Second caveat: Heat is transferred in (basically) three ways: a) conduction; b) convection; and c) radiance. In the culinary world, as in most practical applications, some mixture is involved.

The heat the bean sees in a drum roaster is almost entirely conductive. The exterior of the drum is heated, and the heat moves through the drum material itself (mostly via free electron diffusion). Remember there's more to a drum roaster than just the drum itself, the energy going into and out of the drum is effected by other parts of the system to a respectively greater or lesser extent. But because heat transference to the beans is (largely) conduction, and the instrument of transference is the drum -- the drum is the most important part of the system from the beans' perspective. The drum exists in an operating environment including not only the heat source but the rest of the system, and the modalities of the drum's heat gain and loss is more system dependent than the beans'.

The drum in a commercial drum roaster has relatively high thermal mass compared to the thermal mass of the beans being roasted. Besides the drum, other parts of a commercial roaster also have relatively high thermal masses contributing to the system via any and all of the transference modes. Consequently when the beans enter the drum, the drum roaster doesn't give up a high proportion of its stored thermal energy. The roaster can effectively "coast" on previously banked energy. Compared to the amount of energy already stored, little additional energy is required to maintain the drum's temperature.

Think of "thermal mass" as just plain mass and temperature change as motion. Higher masses have higher momentum at a given velocity, but also greater inertia. Similarly greater thermal mass is better able to maintain temperature but less able to change temperature. Commercial roasters are built for batch operation, so high thermal mass chassis and drums are efficient. However, these roasters respond relatively slowly to additional heat unless supplied in relatively large quantities. Returning to the drum, it also takes a while for heat energy applied to the outside of the drum to make its way to the interior.

The Hottop's drum and chassis have a much lower thermal mass relative to the mass of the beans. Consequently when the beans enter the drum, they absorb a relatively higher proportion of the energy stored in the system during the preheat period. During the roasting process, the exterior of the drum requires constant heating in order to replace energy the beans absorb through conduction and the system loses by radiance. (Why do you think they call it Hottop?) More energy still is needed if the roast master wants to raise the drum's temperature. Because the system is so conductive and loses such a high percentage of its energy to the surrounding environment (under normal ambient conditions), heat has to be pumped into the system more or less constantly. The Hottop is a lot more agile than a commercial style roaster in how quickly drum temperature responds to relatively slight increases of new energy.

It might or might not to be of interest to consider that the electric elements in the Hottop transfer heat to the drum almost entirely by radiance, while the gas burner in a commercial roaster transfers heat through all three modes.

No matter how you slice it, the energy supplied to the coffee in either drum, as well as to each drum itself, is both "positive" and "active." The operant principles are the "Zeroth" and Second Laws of Thermodynamics.

Does this help at all?

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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Abe Carmeli on Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:48 pm

boar_d_laze wrote:The heat the bean sees in a drum roaster is almost entirely conductive.


That was a great explanation, especially since it came from a non-poet. I have to disagree on one point: The Hottop uses a fan to assist in convection heating and my guess is that there is more of it there than one may think. But beyond that, Randy I believe pointed out the hazards of a drop in bean temperature during a roast. This is a non issue with the Hottop. Despite a drop in air temperature in the drum when the beans are inserted, a probe into the bean mass temperature at that stage shows that the bean temperature does not drop but rather rises constantly and quite fast.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by boar_d_laze on Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:24 pm

Abe Carmeli wrote:I have to disagree on one point: The Hottop uses a fan to assist in convection heating and my guess is that there is more of it there than one may think.


Abe,

Taking your points out of order:

My earlier post mentioned that practical situations are seldom pure, and more than one kind of heat transference is involved in (almost) every cooking situation. I was trying to explain why heat energy in a pro drum roaster as compared to a Hottop shouldn't be described as either passive or subtractive. I didn't try to paint a complete picture for several reasons. Two of them:

A) It would complicate rather than clarify, if I'd include enough math and empirical data to assign proper proportionality or at least allow an understanding of how it could be explained. The math doesn't go beyond freshman calculus, but it is math. It would make the post unreadable for most people. (At first algorithm: :roll:) Take, Fourier's law, describing contact heat conductance: q=-kA (dT/dx) where q is the heat flow, k is the thermal conductivity, A is the cross sectional area and dT / dx is the temperature gradient in the direction of flow. Now check your ocular movement. See what I mean.

B) I don't have the data allowing an analysis of the relative contributions of the different modes of thermal transference in any given roaster, or the Hottop in particular.

Given: I know little about the Hottop's actual operation.

Until your post, my understanding of the design was the main fan began operating during the latter, high-temp stages to remove smoke; that the fan was not intended to play much role in cooking the beans; and that the Hottop was intended to operate as much like a pro drum roaster as practical. Since the fan moves hot air around inside the drum, while the beans tumble around, there's bound to be at least some energy transference from air to bean. I also understood that the as a corollary to removing smoke, the fan also removed heat from the system; and that the heating elements replaced the heat loss by (radiant) heating the drum. I inferred the convected air flow was almost totally laminar, also implying a significant heat loss. Based on my understandings and inferences, plus the relative efficiencies of the different modes of transference (which I probably should have mentioned), I reckoned the the action inside a Hottop was (mostly) conductive and wrote accordingly.

Since you know more about real world roasting than I ever will, I'm willing to reassess. If my rough assessment of proportional contribution in the Hottop it was wrong, it was wrong.

Jeeze, I sound pompous,
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Abe Carmeli on Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:47 pm

Rich,

No worries, you know more about heat in all its forms than I'll ever master. My calculus skills are approaching Homer Simpson's but not quite there. Add to it 85 points IQ, and you'll see that I'm just barely making it pass the Homo Sapiens threshold. As to the fan operation, the beauty of Model B is that you can use it at will and control its speed. Leaving the math out of it for a moment, I noticed that if I use slow speed on it, bean mass temperature rises faster than without it. Hence my convection theory. But please stick around man, keep us in check. :wink:
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by boar_d_laze on Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:53 pm

Abe,

You da mensch! :lol:

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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Randy G. on Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:26 am

cannonfodder wrote:.......So I guess the point of all this rambling is that if your friend with the D model is unhappy with the profile he gets, he could try that chaff tray and fan filter trick to slow the roast or try a smaller batch before he drops the $$$ on a new programmable unit. He (or she) could hack it like Ian did and make it a manual control unit. Having a working unit but wanting more control, I would hack my roaster before I dropped the cash on the new version.


I should have caught this before- On the newer models there is a microswitch in the chaff tray chute that is activated by the chaff tray's insertion. if you pull the chaff tray during a roast the beans are ejected. The control board can be "hacked" to disable the switch and allow the roaster to operate normally (it is a matter of a jumper on a couple of pins as detailed in the upgrade procedure PDF on the Hottop USA website), but I like the switch because the programming of the roaster uses it to remind the user to clean the chaff tray between roasts in case they forget.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by Cosmo on Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:21 am

Randy, as a new Hottop "B" owner, I just wanted to say thanks for all the advice and tips yoou have posted.
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Link to "New model Hottop KN-8828B first look"by KimH on Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:06 am

Hi

This is a very interesting thread, since I am looking for a roaster to replace my dead I-Roast 2. As far as my research has taken me, Hottop "B" is the best solution so far.... And Randy, Thanks for putting all these reviews and other interesting stuff on your web site. It is really usefully.

One thing I have not been able to find out about this and other Hottop models is how ambient temperature affects the roast. I will have to roast in my garage all year long and the ambient temperature will vary from 0 to 30 degrees Celsius. (32-86 F.)

What is the range of ambient temperature that will be acceptable temperature for a Hottop to make a good roast?
Can someone please tell me about there experiences, roasting with a Hottop at different ambient temperatures?

Regards
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