New HotTop for the homeroasters - Page 2

[Paolo]

I have just looked at the Hottop USA website and the following prices have been put in place:-

*$980 for the new (programmable) Hottop and

*$480 for the upgrade kit alone.



I wonder how many upgrade kits actually will sell at that price.

[nicfortin]

Well...
Been waiting for this one to come out before buying but...
Looks like the Gene Cafe is the "best buy" and by far now!


nic

[cafeIKE]

Well...
Been waiting for this one to come out before buying but...
Looks like the Gene Cafe is the "best buy" and by far now!


nic

Don't forget the Gene isn't a drum roaster.

The 'Best Buy' has gotta be a Heat Gun / Dog Bowl

[wmfamily]

$980?!?! I figured on maybe another $100 over the current digital. I guess I'll have to wait for the price to come down a bit before jumping in or just go with the regular digital.

[medstudent2009]

$980?!?! I figured on maybe another $100 over the current digital. I guess I'll have to wait for the price to come down a bit before jumping in or just go with the regular digital.

In honor of MLK, I say a peaceful protest of this overpriced product is in order! $980, and you can't even change temp on the fly! A damn rip-off IMO. What's the point of profiling if you can't change temp on the fly?! For example, what if 1st crack is getting out of control, and you want to lower temp, what if you want to lower temp at very end of roast, what if you want to have exactly 5 minutes between beginning of 1st and end of roast...? You can't simply predict when these key events will happen, even if you record when 1st crack happens for every bean every roast. Buy a Gene Cafe or an RK Drum. Not precision control, but closer to it than a "programmable" Hottop! Sheeesh, the nerve...

[Dogshot]

After reading just about everything there is on the popular roasters, I beleive the manual Hottop is probably the best one out there. It must be very difficult to produce an inexpensive roaster that delivers true profile programmability (the i-roast does not do it, nor does it look like the Gene delivers that promise). If the upgrade to the Hottop really does deliver useful control over the roast, then it will be a cheap alternative to a commercial batch roaster.

The coffee is more important than the grinder or the machine. I no longer blanche at the thought of a $1.5k machine or a big ticket grinder. It only makes sense to use a roaster that can deliver similarly high levels of performance.

Mark

[another_jim]

I fail to see a legitimate reason for this new hottop controller being so expensive. The Fuji PXR3 PID controller with ramp/soak is eminently suited to doing profile control (I've built three and given the how to's on a half dozen more). Along with the SSR, box, TC and 8 odd wires for the hookup, it tots up to about $200 and a few hours work. This cost buys you industrial grade components that are basically indestructible, much better than the hottop controller, and I'm giving the retail, quantity one cost.

This is especially mystifying, since the roaster itself is well built for the price and sales volume they have. I think they've somehow made a poor decision, and gotten themselves locked into producing a high cost, low volume custom made flat panel controller for the space on the existing unit, instead of just putting a blank plate on the existing button panel and adding a simple plug for an off the shelf control box at 1/3 to 1/2 of the price.

[nicfortin]

Don't forget the Gene isn't a drum roaster.

The 'Best Buy' has gotta be a Heat Gun / Dog Bowl

Does it make such a big difference? Anyone has try the same "everything" on both machine to see the difference in the cup?
IMO the Gene Cafe with it's on the fly adjusments is a winner because I haven't read any bad comment on it, specially tastewise in comparison to the Hottop.

And for the Heat Gun / Dog Bowl I'll pass... I don't have either so might as well spend that money on a roaster
I'll do more research on Hottop / Gene Cafe comparison "in the cup".
If anyone with experience in home-roasting want to start a thread on that let me know I'll jump in.
I'm still in the learning / shopping process for a roaster and I do beleive so far the Gene Cafe would give me "more" as a learning tool in roasting. What do you think?

nic

[medstudent2009]

... If the upgrade to the Hottop really does deliver useful control over the roast, then it will be a cheap alternative to a commercial batch roaster.

Mark

Sounds like Hottop has caught another one- Hook, Line, and Sinker!---ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ--- The thing is that it doesn't deliver useful control over the roast! What seems to be the case, though is that Hottop is fooling people into thinking it is better than it is by simply putting a ridiculous price tag on it, and putting a desirable marketing "spin" on it that seems believable to non-electronic gurus. Like Jim said, you can PID a Hottop for much cheaper, and this method offers far superior control than the simple 8-setting temperature-time setting in the new "programmable" model. Furthermore, the temperature probe that arrives in the factory built Hottop does not give as accurate bean temp reading as does a properly placed thermocouple probe. People who know far more about electronics than I concur that, from looking at the PDF "how to upgrade panel to programmable controller", the new controller on the programmable hottop is built very cheaply. Go with a manual, and PID it. Don't let those chumps take your money so easily. Demand Better! : ))

[Dogshot]

The thing is that it doesn't deliver useful control over the roast! What seems to be the case, though is that Hottop is fooling people into thinking it is better than it is ...

Wow! So you have already tried the upgraded model? How much time did it take using the unit to come to that conclusion?

Mark

[medstudent2009]

Wow! So you have already tried the upgraded model? How much time did it take using the unit to come to that conclusion?

Mark

I don't need to try it, I just took a simple look at the specs...

[rmongiovi]

I think we'd have to see Jim's instructions and specs too, to be able to make a valid comparison.

[cafeIKE]

I think we'd have to see Jim's instructions and specs too, to be able to make a valid comparison.

As there is no change to the temperature sensor, unless there was a huge programming error on the previous models, the ability of the unit to accurately roast to a temperature profile is somewhat suspect.

My guess is the unit will profile in a manner similar to the iRoars : You can change the profile, but you won't be able to program actual bean temperatures. I hope I'm wrong.

For a $500 upgrade, I would not expect to have to use a separate bean temp probe and build a crib sheet to convert panel numbers to bean temperatures.

The current displayed temperatures are off as much as 70°F from bean temperature and 170°F from the environmental temperature:

[another_jim]

I think we'd have to see Jim's instructions and specs too, to be able to make a valid comparison.

The hard part is in the hottop - disconnect the heater from the existing circuit and put it on its own plug. Add a TC that measures bean temp or some accurate proxy.

The easy part is the PID -- mount it it in a plastic box with a switch, add a female plug for the heater, a male plug for power, and the heatsinked SSR (I just screw the PID box onto an aluminum loaf pan, mount the SSR inside that). Follow the wiring and progamming instructions in the Fuji manual. Moderate DIY skills and tools are necessary.

[espressoperson]

As there is no change to the temperature sensor, unless there was a huge programming error on the previous models, the ability of the unit to accurately roast to a temperature profile is somewhat suspect.

My guess is the unit will profile in a manner similar to the iRoars : You can change the profile, but you won't be able to program actual bean temperatures. I hope I'm wrong.

For a $500 upgrade, I would not expect to have to use a separate bean temp probe and build a crib sheet to convert panel numbers to bean temperatures.

The current displayed temperatures are off as much as 70°F from bean temperature and 170°F from the environmental temperature:

True, the built-in temperature sensor is not the bean temperature. But it is rock solid and repeatable roast to roast, day to day. Here are three different roasts on three different days. And a profile with no beans. With curves like these there is a very good chance (if not a certainty) that the programming will allow us to control the roasting milestones reliably.

[rmongiovi]

The hard part is in the hottop - disconnect the heater from the existing circuit and put it on its own plug. Add a TC that measures bean temp or some accurate proxy.

The easy part is the PID -- mount it it in a plastic box with a switch, add a female plug for the heater, a male plug for power, and the heatsinked SSR (I just screw the PID box onto an aluminum loaf pan, mount the SSR inside that). Follow the wiring and progamming instructions in the Fuji manual. Moderate DIY skills and tools are necessary.

Doesn't the PID just monitor the TC and adjust voltage to the heating element/fan to maintain a desired temperature? To make a multi-step roast profile, don't you need some sort of computer control to set that desired temperature? and software? That adds a bit to the cost estimate.

[another_jim]

Doesn't the PID just monitor the TC and adjust voltage to the heating element/fan to maintain a desired temperature? To make a multi-step roast profile, don't you need some sort of computer control to set that desired temperature? and software? That adds a bit to the cost estimate.

The Fuji does ramp/soak control, that means you can program the setpoint to change over time to create a graph of connected straightline segments. The base model does eight segments, with each segment capable of a sloped line going from the current process temperature to a programmed setpoint over the programmed "ramp" time, then holding that setpoint for the programmed "soak time." The next segment then gives you a new programmed setpoint, ramp time and soak time. I've never used more than five segments for my profiles; so eight segments is plenty. Other brands' ramp/soak controllers use different programming methods, but they all do the same thing.

The main drawback of the Fuji is that the ramp/soak times are in minutes, rather than seconds; the main advantage is that it's about half the price of other ramp/soak controllers, and apparently has a 100% reliability record for the thousands of people who've used it to PID espresso machines and roasters.

[cafeIKE]

With curves like these there is a very good chance (if not a certainty) that the programming will allow us to control the roasting milestones reliably.

From the graph, the 'profiles' cross and there is as much as two minutes between similar temperatures.
This does not satisfy my definition of rock solid.

The very reason I went to all the trouble of hacking the HotTop is that it is not 'consistent'.

[cafeIKE]

The hard part is in the hottop -

About 30 minutes with parts in hand. Instructions

The easy part is the PID --

Unless using a single profile, the user has to enter several set point values into the PID for each profile used.

The fan also needs entering into the equation. To leave it under control of the HotTop is not optimum. The simplest suggestion is to have it come on via an Alarm output from the PID. If this is done, the user should configure it with an SCR so that once it comes on, it stays on until power is removed to ensure adequate cooling of the roaster.

[nicfortin]

The fan also needs entering into the equation. To leave it under control of the HotTop is not optimum. The simplest suggestion is to have it come on via an Alarm output from the PID. If this is done, the user should configure it with an SCR so that once it comes on, it stays on until power is removed to ensure adequate cooling of the roaster.

(sorry I'm very newbie to everything PID and electronic in general)
So to get that (quote) and all the PID control strait from the box do one have to purchase a full size commercial roaster?
I hope not. What would be the price range for such a roaster?

nic
" I wish I was more handy for those things..."