New HotTop for the homeroasters - Page 3

[espressoperson]

From the graph, the 'profiles' cross and there is as much as two minutes between similar temperatures.
This does not satisfy my definition of rock solid.

The very reason I went to all the trouble of hacking the HotTop is that it is not 'consistent'.

Boy, you're a hard sell . IMO your comment actually illustrates my point rather than refutes it. It shows that 1st and 2nd always occur at the same temperature even if the time varies. Bean after bean, roast after roast, day after day. That's the consistency I'm referring to. Those graphs are from the stock digital hottop, just pushing the temp button every minute and writing down the time. If the new model allows me to set the temperature, set the time to that temperature, then I can control the roast profile. I will be able to create a profile that I think is ideal for an espresso blend, punch it into the machine, and have the hottop deliver. The drying phase, the speed to 1st, the time between 1st and start of 2nd. And even more subtleties I hope to learn now that profiling is possible.

Of course we won't know for sure until we try it, but IMO the outlook is good. I've done a few hundred roasts over a two year period and it's clear to me (and hopefully a reflection of what the Hottop folks have found) that the programmable model will get the job done. But we can still complain about price, quality, elegance, and all sorts of other things...

[cafeIKE]

Boy, you're a hard sell . IMO your comment actually illustrates my point rather than refutes it. It shows that 1st and 2nd always occur at the same temperature even if the time varies. Bean after bean, roast after roast, day after day

Cracks occur at the same temperature as they are bean dependent. [Ignoring changes in the bean due to age and environmental conditions] They are not indicative of the profile, but the degree of roast.

Flavors changes with the time and ramp that you arrive at those temperatures.

I can roast to 440°F in my HotTop in 10 minutes. I don't particularly like the coffee. I could also roast to 440°F in 30 minutes. I probably would not like the coffee. Both will just be to the first outliers of 2nd crack, but will taste markedly different. That is the essense of profile roasting. More subtle aspects are how fast is the drying ramp, how many degrees per minute to 1st, whether you push hard and how far into to 1st, degrees per minute to 2nd.

My aplogies for being a hard sell

[Rainman]

Cracks occur at the same temperature as they are bean dependent. [Ignoring changes in the bean do to age and environmental conditions] They are not indicative of the profile, but the degree of roast.

Flavors changes with the time and ramp that you arrive at those temperatures.

I can roast to 440°F in my HotTop in 10 minutes. I don't particularly like the coffee. I could also roast to 440°F in 30 minutes. I probably would not like the coffee. Both will just be to the first outliers of 2nd crack, but will taste markedly different. That is the essense of profile roasting. More subtle aspects are how fast is the drying ramp, how many degrees per minute to 1st, whether you push hard and how far into to 1st, degrees per minute to 2nd.

I think this is where a roasters guide might come in handy-- and perhaps why home roasting can be so challenging. Most of us get much better coffee by roasting at home than we can get locally, but don't understand exactly what's going on inside the bean during much of this process. I just can't help wondering how much better it could be. I'm starting to get a bit intimidated by the whole process.. but at the same time, I absolutely love the espresso and press pot coffee I make at home- and can't imagine getting anywhere close to this kind of quality at any cafe here.

I don't suppose anyone's interested in creating a compendium for best roast curves for a list of beans, and maybe some side-notes as options to bring out certain flavors.. would they? Or does something like that already exist? If it does, I've never seen it. I know you have to assume that the roaster has access to equipment that they can use to control heat transfer and cooling to within "x" deg F.

Ray

[rmongiovi]

The Fuji does ramp/soak control, that means you can program the setpoint to change over time to create a graph of connected straightline segments.

This PID is just a chip, right? My google foo apparently isn't strong enough to get from "fuji PID" to a spec sheet, so I really don't have any idea what you're talking about since I haven't seen instructions for adding a PID to a hottop. I'm certainly curious, though. Problem is I'm a computer jock, not a EE so I need guidance.

I'm still not clear how you'd interface to the PID to program the intervals. Not debating whether or not the new Hottop panel is worth the money, it's at least a user interface. If there's a clear and reproducible relationship between the Hottop's (apparently) inadequate temperature sensor and reality, then I'd think it would be possible to program in a desired profile.

[palounek]

The first thirty units of the programmable HotTop model KN-8828P are scheduled to be available 2/1/2007. General KN-8828P availability is scheduled for 3/1/2007.

- Price for the KN-8828P - $980.00
- Price for the complete upgrade kit which will upgrade earlier KN-8828 or KN-8828D models is $480.00

The control panel has been totally redesigned, now sporting an advanced LCD display which serves as the programming interface as well as giving the user full telemetry readout during the roasting process. For those just learning about roasting coffee there is an "Auto" mode that roasts the coffee much like the previous models have, but the KN-8828P also adds up to ten roasting profiles. The first is pre-programmed by the factory. The remaining 9 profiles can be programmed by the user and saved for use at a future time in the non-volatile memory.

That is a clipping from http://hottopusa.com/news.html where you can read more details. See also http://www.hottop.com.tw/

We have one of the 30 HotTop roasters available years ago. After we bought it, we had some problems with the first control chip and Shelly Chiang from Taiwan was very helpful sending a replacement chip and giving other advice. After that, our original HotTop still works without problems and roasted many batches of excellent coffee. We never upgraded to the Digital model but are seriously considering the upgrading to the programmable unit.

Our opinion that HotTop roasters are the best home roasters available never changed.

Lubos in the Texas Hill Country part of Austin

[luca]

OK, quick question. What's all the fuss about not having a bean temp probe? You don't have a brew temp probe on a marzocco or whatever, you have a boiler temp probe. Isn't the principle the same? If a bean temp probe is that important, wouldn't you need both the bean temp and the ambient temp?

Cheers,

Luca "Roasts a bit, but obviously not a pro ;P" C

[danblev]

In short, if you had a constant difference between measured temperature and bean temperature you would be right. But in roasting there are many uncontrolled variables that affect the bean temperature and you cannot estimate the bean temperature from the measured one.

What I mean is that a major difference between brewing and roasting is that in brewing you have a stable temperature, that starts at some value and as water moves towards the portafilter is changes its temperature through an identical path and profile each time. As the water path is pre-heated and the time it takes the water to reach the coffee is short the temperature drop of a double boiler is close to the same each time.

On the other hand as in roasting, there are numerous things that affect the bean temperature( of the are the roast profile, amount of beans, ambient air temperature, bean humidity, air flow through the chamber and air flow within the chamber).
If you take two thermometers, put one in the roast chamber and one in the beans you will measure two different temperatures in each and the difference will change over the roast.

Here is my own example -
I start my roast when the roaster chamber reaches 260f I drop the beans into the roaster.
The beans gradually heat up to 340f while the chamber only to 320f. At this stage I will slow down the heating and let the beans continue to raise in temperature while the chamber's temperature is almost constant.
If I would only measure the chamber's temperature I would only be able to listen, look and smell the actual roast while having a temperature probe enables me to also measure it.

Danny

[cafeIKE]

If a bean temp probe is that important, wouldn't you need both the bean temp and the ambient temp?

Absolutely.

If the environmental temperature gets too hot, the beans scorch.

Depending on the airflow through the roaster, then bean and ambient temperatures maybe heading in opposite direction.
The red line at the top is the environmental temperature.
As you can see it is falling, while the bean temperature continues to rise

[palounek]

Limited availability in a week or two with general availability in another 4-6 weeks. I have not looked at their web page lately. I was told (by Hottop USA) that an update was going up soon a couple of weeks ago.

The HotTop USA site now states:
The first thirty units are now available (as of 2/1/2007). General KN-8828P availability is scheduled for 3/1/2007.
Lubos

[Paolo]

Has anyone read a review on one of these new beasts from any other sites?

[beansmeanshighs]

Steve from Hasbean is testing one. He tends to update his blog with any news.

[EricC]

I spoke with Steve from Hasbean yesterday and I wouldn't complain about the price in the USA.

Here in the UK the upgrade alone is £420 plus postage.

[beansmeanshighs]

Hoping to get my beans on one in a couple of weeks. will let you know how it is.
Wondering when you power off does it save your profiles ?
D

[Everman]

To me it sounds like you'd be better off with modifying the manual model with a PID and interface it with a PC. That way you have ultimate control and data logging capabilities. You can add that for around $300.

[mattwells]

To me it sounds like you'd be better off with modifying the manual model with a PID and interface it with a PC. That way you have ultimate control and data logging capabilities. You can add that for around $300.

Any threads or sites where someone has done this? I was just thinking about the possibility the other day (I have only had my HotTop for a month and am already considering how to upgrade it).

[Everman]

Any threads or sites where someone has done this? I was just thinking about the possibility the other day (I have only had my HotTop for a month and am already considering how to upgrade it).

I haven't seen anyone plug one into a pc yet, but there are PIDs that can do that and they aren't much more expensive than the typical fuji pxr3.

[wogaut]

Any threads or sites where someone has done this? I was just thinking about the possibility the other day (I have only had my HotTop for a month and am already considering how to upgrade it).

I did. http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/homeroast/279570
Picture here: http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coff...oast/275178#275178

But it did cost me about 500$ for the PID (Dual PID for Heat/Cool with 16 Ramp/Soak segments, events to control motors and eject and RS232 serial interface).

Wolfgang

[rmongiovi]

I did. http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/homeroast/279570
Picture here: http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coff...oast/275178#275178

But it did cost me about 500$ for the PID (Dual PID for Heat/Cool with 16 Ramp/Soak segments, events to control motors and eject and RS232 serial interface).

Wolfgang

Love your setup. It would be great to be able to build my own. But when you get to the part about computing the PID parameters manually, my only thought is "How in the world do I learn how to do that?"

So until there are instructions and/or pointers for the handy layman, all I can do is look on in envy.

Unfortunately, I'm a computer jock, not a EE. Sigh.

[Rainman]

So until there are instructions and/or pointers for the handy layman, all I can do is look on in envy.

Unfortunately, I'm a computer jock, not a EE. Sigh.

I heaaaarrd dat! It's nice not having to really understand too much using iRoasts (even with the ability to "program" specific curves; who knows what temps you're actually programming)- I've heared from at least one person (sorry, lost the post, but she lives in Alberta and has gone through 3 of them) that each iRoast machine actually produces different temps-- most of us wouldn't know that unless you've burned through several like she has.. all that as I thought I was just figuring out how they work.. hmmm...

[cafeIKE]

Randy G did a review
http://home.surewest.net/frcn/Coffee/BeanRoaster_P.html

Nah!