New guy - Questions about La Pavoni Europiccola tamper, grinder, etc.

[junkdan16]

OK:

I've been lurking for a little while and now need some advice. A Caveat: I am a relative newbie. I used to pull pretty good shots when I worked at my school's espresso bar ten years ago, but have never really been able to do so at home. If the stuff I'm asking seems a little elementary, it's because I'm new to all of this.

I went ahead and purchased a La Pavoni Europiccola, which may have been a horrible mistake, but we'll see. It's good looks and my large store credit at Williams Sonoma convinced me that I was willing to put in the time to figure it out. For many of the same reasons, I also picked up the KitchenAid Proline grinder. I know, I know, it's not one of the fancy schmancy ones, but the review on Coffee Geek made it sound like it was at least adjustable enough (with some work) for my needs.

So my questions are these:

1) The La Pavoni came with a crap tamper. I'm poised to purchase a new one, but need some help. I measured about 52mm across the portafilter. I have read in various places that 51mm is the correct size for the LP. Can anyone confirm this? Incidentally, the sizing chart at espressoparts.com has the La Pavoni at 56mm - clearly too big. Maybe someone should tell them (unless this is the size of the professional).

1a) After reading the Tamper Roadshow, that a lot of people's "old standbys" is the Reg Barber. Is this a good, solid tamper for a beginner? Can I ask about curvature without sparking heated debate (I'm leaning toward the American Curve because, well, I'm American and it seems like a nice compromise)? Should I be looking at one of those "click" tampers to at least inject a little consistency (difficult with my choice of machines)?

2) Should I drop $80 on a bottomless portafilter? Or should I try to get the basics down before I start worrying about beading and tiger-striping?

3) Have I made a mistake with the grinder? Can I fiddle with the KA enough to make it work for me? Anyone have experience getting great results from this machine? I simply can't afford a Mazzer or one of the others at this stage in the game, nor can I fit it in my kitchen, so hopefully I can make this one work.

4) Any Philly people in here? I've been getting my coffee from La Colombe on 19th because it's close to my house and they have a good reputation around here. It's freshly roasted and they're friendly people. Are there any other places to pick up good fresh beans?

I realize this is a long post, but I've got lots of questions, and I'm looking forward to learning more about this stuff. I thank you in advance for any advice you can spare. I'll thank you again afterward, I'm sure.

-Dan

[junkdan16]

OK, looking at the .pdf sizing chart on espressoparts, it suggests a 49mm tamper for the la pavoni. What gives? Is this in case you want to try different tamping techniques?

[cannonfodder]

Welcome

To your questions..

The new model (referred to as the millennium group) uses a 51mm tamper. The older units used a 49mm tamper. You basket may measure 52mm at the top, but if look closely, you will notice that the sides of the basket taper in ever so slightly. You would have to measure the baskets internal diameter about a half inch down from the basket top. This is where your tamper piston will be when tamping. You can get custom turned pistons for your tamper, but for now stick to a 51mm.

Convex of flat, personally I use flat because the shower screen on the La Pavoni is flat. That keeps an even headspace across the puck. My pump machines have convex shower screens so I use a convex tamper on them. If you read the tamper road show thread than you should have seen the 'flat or convex' section in my review.

Bottomless portafilters are an indispensable learning aid. Personally, I would get one. That way you can see defects in your grind/dose/tamp technique.

I have not used the KA pro grinder so I cannot comment. Mark (coffeekid) has positive comments about it.

I don't live in philly but our corporate office is in West Conshohocken so I do get out there now and then. I know there are two locations in center city I have heard about but never visited. You can also order fresh beans from any of the HB sponsors, you won't be disappointed.

Finally be patient, lever machines are difficult to master. I wont pull any punches, it will probably take you around 3 months to get decent espresso, 6 months to get consistent good espresso and a year to reach nirvana.

[junkdan16]

Welcome

Thanks!

The new model (referred to as the millennium group) uses a 51mm tamper. The older units used a 49mm tamper. You basket may measure 52mm at the top, but if look closely, you will notice that the sides of the basket taper in ever so slightly. You would have to measure the baskets internal diameter about a half inch down from the basket top. This is where your tamper piston will be when tamping. You can get custom turned pistons for your tamper, but for now stick to a 51mm.

Convex of flat, personally I use flat because the shower screen on the La Pavoni is flat. That keeps an even headspace across the puck. My pump machines have convex shower screens so I use a convex tamper on them. If you read the tamper road show thread than you should have seen the 'flat or convex' section in my review.

This all makes sense. I suppose the slightly tapered basket helps with puck separation? I guess it's 51mm flat for me! Should I be looking at one of those clickers, or stick with the "standard" reg barber? Could I possibly be vain enough to have it engraved with my initials??? These questions and more on the next installment of "Dan thinks about espresso instead of getting work done."

Bottomless portafilters are an indispensable learning aid. Personally, I would get one. That way you can see defects in your grind/dose/tamp technique.

Well, looks like it's another $80 sacrifice to the espresso gods.

I have not used the KA pro grinder so I cannot comment. Mark (coffeekid) has positive comments about it.

Is Mark reading this thread? I think I read somewhere that there is a mod to make the KA stepless. Worth it? Should I just hold the dial between two settings, if necessary?

I don't live in philly but our corporate office is in West Conshohocken so I do get out there now and then. I know there are two locations in center city I have heard about but never visited. You can also order fresh beans from any of the HB sponsors, you wont be disappointed.

Any chance you remember the names?

Finally be patient, lever machines are difficult to master. I wont pull any punches, it will probably take you around 3 months to get decent espresso, 6 months to get consistent good espresso and a year to reach nirvana.

I'm young and willing to take the time I'm going to have to expand your timeframe a bit, though, since I only have Saturdays and Sundays to work with

[cannonfodder]

I am not a big fan of clicker tamps. If you read the tamper road show thread you may notice that there is little to no mention of the click tamp. While learning, use a bathroom scale. Just put a towel over the scale and tamp on it. One thing to keep in mind, the 30 pound rule is not. Think of it as a guideline, the key is consistency. If you use 10, 30 or 70 pounds, just be consistent.

I can not help much with the grinder adjustment. I have never used the pro line. I believe there are some threads about it on CG. I would suggest you do a search or start a new thread about it.

As to the cafe's, there is a thread on the CG US East forum about coffee shops in your area. I am sure they also sell beans.

[mr. brown]

Hi Dan,
I'm a La Pavoni Professional owner who uses a 51.5mm Reg Barber tamper and who lives in Philadelphia. Fancy that... No KitchenAid though.

I personally like La Colombe's Nizza blend. It is usually very fresh (the secret is to ask them for a half pound so they have to scoop out the fresh beans behind the counter, and not just sell you whatever they have had sitting out up front). It seems like the most balanced of the locally available coffees in terms of flavor, and it doesn't suffer from the super-oiliness of the Old City Coffee espresso blend offerings. If you want to try something else, I recommend going out to Old City Coffee (Reading Terminal Market and Old City). They will have a better selection of single-origin coffees and also offer a regular and six bean espresso blend. I don't care for either of their blends (but that's just a matter of taste). Don't bother with Torreo coffee as it has probably been sitting around for quite a while wherever I can find it.

It is difficult for me to receive coffee in the mail, so I haven't done much of that. I did have a pretty lousy customer service experience with the owner of Cafe Fresco, so even though they seem to be everyone's favorite around here, I'd check out everyone else first before going back to him. Intelligentsia and Coffee Emergency could deal with getting mail to Philadelphia.

Mr. Brown

[bobcraige]

I would not purchase a bottomless portafilter. While they may be of great help on pump machines, lever machines have more than enough for you to master without trying to watch the flow distribution at the same time. Concentrate on the other items on your list and put the cost of the bottomless portafilter to better use.

Personally, I have had great experience with Cafe Fresco and would put them at the top of my list. Give Tony a try.

[junkdan16]

Hi Dan,
I'm a La Pavoni Professional owner who uses a 51.5mm Reg Barber tamper and who lives in Philadelphia. Fancy that... No KitchenAid though.

I personally like La Colombe's Nizza blend. It is usually very fresh (the secret is to ask them for a half pound so they have to scoop out the fresh beans behind the counter, and not just sell you whatever they have had sitting out up front). It seems like the most balanced of the locally available coffees in terms of flavor, and it doesn't suffer from the super-oiliness of the Old City Coffee espresso blend offerings. If you want to try something else, I recommend going out to Old City Coffee (Reading Terminal Market and Old City). They will have a better selection of single-origin coffees and also offer a regular and six bean espresso blend. I don't care for either of their blends (but that's just a matter of taste). Don't bother with Torreo coffee as it has probably been sitting around for quite a while wherever I can find it.

It is difficult for me to receive coffee in the mail, so I haven't done much of that. I did have a pretty lousy customer service experience with the owner of Cafe Fresco, so even though they seem to be everyone's favorite around here, I'd check out everyone else first before going back to him. Intelligentsia and Coffee Emergency could deal with getting mail to Philadelphia.

Mr. Brown

Yeah, I've actually been using the Nizza blend but, since my grinder hasn't come in yet, I've been having them grind it there. This has been frustrating, because, if the grind isn't right, I have to decide whether or not to go back to the store and get more or regrind, or just live with it. I have been choosing the latter option, but I can't wait to get the grinder. For that same reason, I've only been buying a quarter pound at a time, which they take from the big bag behind the counter.

My plan for the time being, is to stick with the Nizza for consistency's sake until I can get the machine right, then shop around a little bit. Now that RT is open on Sundays, I may have to check out Old City.

I have ordered a 51mm tamper from Reg Barber. Is the 51.5 more appropriate?

Thanks for your help!
-Dan

[junkdan16]

I am not a big fan of clicker tamps. If you read the tamper road show thread you may notice that there is little to no mention of the click tamp. While learning, use a bathroom scale. Just put a towel over the scale and tamp on it. One thing to keep in mind, the 30 pound rule is not. Think of it as a guideline, the key is consistency. If you use 10, 30 or 70 pounds, just be consistent.

I can not help much with the grinder adjustment. I have never used the pro line. I believe there are some threads about it on CG. I would suggest you do a search or start a new thread about it.

As to the cafe's, there is a thread on the CG US East forum about coffee shops in your area. I am sure they also sell beans.

Jeez - I have to go buy a scale now??? I should probably do that anyway.

[Madroaster]

I would not purchase a bottomless portafilter. While they may be of great help on pump machines, lever machines have more than enough for you to master without trying to watch the flow distribution at the same time. Concentrate on the other items on your list and put the cost of the bottomless portafilter to better use.

I couldn't disagree more.

I didn't buy a naked portafilter with my Europiccola when I first got the machine because it seemed a luxury item, for geeks and those who were miles above my capabilities. A naked pf was for people trying to reach espresso nirvana, not someone just starting out. I was so wrong.

With a naked pf you can instantly see where you went wrong. Tamp too hard or dose too fine? It's right there--coffee just dripping, usually from the sides, in ugly, black drops. Too coarse or too light? A blonde gusher, and the coffee probably started coming out before you even started pulling the shot. Lousy dosing or distribution? Voids in the filter basket that never, ever go away, or, jet streams that seem to aim for your clean shirt, or the dreaded half-tiger striped/half-blonde as hell shot. With a regular portafilter, some of these problems can go unnoticed (until you taste the shot), and you're left backtracing to figure out where you went wrong. And until you know a lot about espresso, a lot of that is guess work. With a naked pf you know right away, without a doubt.

No, I say get a naked pf. It will save you so much effort when diagnosing your shots. Plus, as an added bonus, you'll get more crema. I've been using a naked pf on my Europiccola for months now, and I've never once considered going back to the normal one. Same with my Elektra. There's just no reason not to have one, especially when you're learning a lever. Plus, they're just so pretty to watch.

[junkdan16]

No, I say get a naked pf.

Yes, I think I may.

I'm a little concerned because my shots appear to be very short. This may just be a limitation on the machine, as I would imagine there is only a limited amount of water that can be held in the grouphead and cylinder before pushing down on the lever.

On a related note, I have been making espresso that is 10x better than before, but still seems like it's not where I want to be. It tastes much thicker than it used to (prolly because I am actually tamping and pushing hard on the lever). The bottomless pf may help.

Also, I think I may have broken my grinder, so I'm going to have to replace that.

Has anyone attempted to contact Reg Barber customer service? I have sent multiple emails inquiring about the engraving (had to go for it) on my new tamper, but have received no reply. Has anyone had a positive customer service experience with him (them)?

[Madroaster]

Yes, I think I may.

I'm a little concerned because my shots appear to be very short. This may just be a limitation on the machine, as I would imagine there is only a limited amount of water that can be held in the grouphead and cylinder before pushing down on the lever.

You're right...Europiccolas hold less water than larger machines, but the shots they produce are no lesser for it. Ristrettos often come in at far less than an ounce, but they're like drinking buttery creme. I'd imagine a normal shot is in the vicinity of 1.0-1.25oz, but someone may correct me on this. I don't really measure.

Also, I think I may have broken my grinder, so I'm going to have to replace that.

I'm really sorry to hear that. What happened?

Has anyone attempted to contact Reg Barber customer service? I have sent multiple emails inquiring about the engraving (had to go for it) on my new tamper, but have received no reply. Has anyone had a positive customer service experience with him (them)?

I've had good experience with Reg. Remember, he's not a sprawling multinational corporation...he's pretty much a guy with a shop. He could be backed up, or even on vacation. Have you tried calling him?

--Derek

[junkdan16]

You're right...Europiccolas hold less water than larger machines, but the shots they produce are no lesser for it. Ristrettos often come in at far less than an ounce, but they're like drinking buttery creme. I'd imagine a normal shot is in the vicinity of 1.0-1.25oz, but someone may correct me on this. I don't really measure.

Yeah, I know they're short. I may just use a measuring cup next time to see. My problem is that I don't really have anything to compare my shots to. I'm finally getting a fairly nice colored crema with some flecks. It tastes pretty good. I guess that's all that matters, but I can't help but wonder how I will figure out if my shots are improving.

I'm really sorry to hear that. What happened?

I tried to make an "adjustment" in an attempt to make the grinder stepless, but my "adjustment" pushed the burrs together really hard when I turned it on. Bad sound, man, bad sound. When there's metal shavings in your coffee, it's time to replace the grinder. It actually works ok now, but just to be on the safe side, I'm going to replace it. It's only a week old...

I've had good experience with Reg. Remember, he's not a sprawling multinational corporation...he's pretty much a guy with a shop. He could be backed up, or even on vacation. Have you tried calling him?

Haven't called - I don't know what the rates would be to Canada. When you get an engraving, you are supposed to email your preferences. Instead I emailed asking a question about engraving and advice. I followed up twice and received no reply until I got the automated shipment confirmation. Now I'll just wait and see what the engraving looks like, and worry about it if it's bad.