New espresso setup decided. Any 2nd guesses?

[jmatt]

I think I'm going with an Andreja Premium from Chriscoffee.com and a Macap MC4 doserless grinder. I'm also planning to get an Espro tamper and the Rancilio bottomless portafilter.

Home use. Some espresso. More milk-based drinks. I do NOT want to plumb anything in now, but may plumb in in the future.

Total cost delivered should be around $1,900.

Anyone want to 2nd guess for me and recommend a different package for the same or less money?

[keno]

You think you've made a decision, but then you want to invite everyone to offer alternative suggestions? Sounds like either you haven't really made a decision (a little hesitant maybe?) or you just want to confuse yourself.

I'm sure there are plenty of people on this site who'd be glad to recommend all sorts of different alternatives ("how about a Mazzer Robur with a PIDed Silvia"), but what would be the point? I'm sure you have your reasons for the machine and grinder you've selected. Both are very good. Just go for it and enjoy!

Cheers,
Ken

[javabob]

I bought the Macap M4 doserless stepped about two months ago now. Great grinder: relatively quiet, excellent grind, looks sleek. Please be advised that it retains up to 2.5 grams of grounds per grind. I don't use the hopper because I grind per shot. I use a circular chunk of wood to prevent "popcorning" and sweep the ring above the gears, lift up and drop the front of the grinder about 1/2", and then brush out the shoot. This gets out the last ~2.5g. This adds about 25 seconds to the routine per shot. I imagine I could just leave the grinds in the grinder, but I'd rather not have the 2.5g go stale. When I grind enough for our two double shots in the morning, this set-up works fine. When I try to pull more shots quickly, grinding per dose is a bit onerous and I wish I had the doser. Good luck with your decision at any rate.

[luca]

Is that the stepless grinder? Have you checked out how much mess the doserless version will make? Those two questions would be important if I were in your shoes.

Cheers,

Luca

[HB]

I think I'm going with an Andreja Premium from Chriscoffee.com and a Macap MC4 doserless grinder.

It's no secret that I don't like doserless grinders all that much (see related survey). The Mini E is the best incarnation I've tried. My main beef with doserless grinders is the additional clumping, though if you're a dedicated WDT adherent, I suppose it doesn't matter. Of the Macap M4 variants I've tried, I liked the doser stepless the best. Nice doser arm action, hyper-precise adjustments, clean sweep (see the Feature Spotlight on Espresso Grinders for more detail).

[mybs]

Looks like Chris just introduced the Alex by Izzo. Has a rotary pump and be used either plumbed in or using a reservoir tank. Could be something worth considering, since it is in the same relatively price range as the Andreja Premium.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Looks like Chris just introduced the Alex by Izzo. Has a rotary pump and be used either plumbed in or using a reservoir tank. Could be something worth considering, since it is in the same relatively price range as the Andreja Premium.

Ditto.

[jmatt]

You think you've made a decision, but then you want to invite everyone to offer alternative suggestions? Sounds like either you haven't really made a decision (a little hesitant maybe?) or you just want to confuse yourself.

I understand your point. Actually, I was expecting responses like those found in the rest of the thread.

I hadn't seen the Alex from ChrisCoffee. Looks intriguing, and thanks for the heads-up, but I still think the Andreja has better features for my needs.

Also, the doser v. doserless issue: yup - I've read all of the mentioned threads, read the reviews, saw the poll. It really seems like a toss-up. 99% of the time I will be making 2 or less doubles at a time. I think for my needs the doserless will be better. I don't thinking I'll ever grind enough at a time for the doser to live up to its true peak purpose and performance.

Thanks again everyone for helping make sure I considered everything. Now I just need to pull the trigger.

[jesawdy]

I think I'm going with an Andreja Premium from Chriscoffee.com and a Macap MC4 doserless grinder. I'm also planning to get an Espro tamper and the Rancilio bottomless portafilter.

I think you should be very happy regardless what you get in this price range....

As for second guessing, I would suggest you revisit the doser versus doserless issue. And you definitely want stepless. I went doserless the first time, thought I had done enough research on that issue, and wish I had gone with a doser. As Dan said, and I maintain is not very clearly stated all that often, doserless machines make clumpy grinds that fall right into your portafilter. With a doser, those clumps get broken up by the doser vanes as you operate the doser with a rapid thwack, thwack.

The Rancilio bottomless is also a very nice choice.... I went with a fully chromed job and I am not real crazy about it's fit (nor its finish) in Miss Silvia at least. The Rancilio PF has a nice weight, finish and handle.

I have held an Espro and it is nice, but a little off I think for handfeel. Of course it will be nice to have to learn on. I have used several wood handled Reg Barber tampers (tall), and I've got to say, there is something VERY nice about them. I have the EPNW HB Compressore and a no name heavy tamper like the EPNW Pro. I do like the EPNW Compressore, but the Reg Barber was very good.... I guess that is why it is the de facto standard tamp you see pros use. If you've got the cash, you might want a "real" tamper to play with in addition to the clicky tamp.

[jesawdy]

With a doser, those clumps get broken up by the doser vanes as you operate the doser with a rapid thwack, thwack.

This is a "feature" of a grinder with a doser... and it doesn't matter if you have 1 double a day or 12, I think it is an improvement over a doserless.

[randomperson]

If you're keen on doserless (and why not?) I'd suggest to take a good long look at the Mazzer Mini E. It is just so well-designed for home use -- no waste, no mess, no large amounts of retained grounds. Unlike the Macap doserless, which was designed for bulk grinding into bags, the Mini E was designed for home use for one shot at a time. It has such great ergonomics -- just a joy to use. It's hard to imagine it could be improved upon (although I haven't tried the Versalab!)

[jmatt]

I'm curious. What about the comments that the doser vanes don't really serve their full purpose until there's a certain mass of ground coffee filling the doser? Do the doser vanes still work well if there's no more than 20 grams of ground coffee in the doser?

Oh - and if I forgot to mention it, I'm planning on the stepless version. The Mazzer Mini E would be nice, but not for the additional money. We all have a price point, and I'm pretty confident in the Macap price point for me. Now - doser or doserless, I'm still open for comments.

Thanks all.

[jesawdy]

I'm curious. What about the comments that the doser vanes don't really serve their full purpose until there's a certain mass of ground coffee filling the doser? Do the doser vanes still work well if there's no more than 20 grams of ground coffee in the doser?

If you twack, thwack, thwack the doser handle with the the grinder running, you are only "dosing" the small amount of grinds that fall into the doser chamber in the time between thwacks. You are not using the doser vanes for the true intended purpose of dosing a known volume, for that you DO need a full doser chamber. The practice of filling the doser chamber is not recommended for home use, and a good coffee shop doesn't do it either, they grind to order just like you will.

So the drill is:

Add beans to hopper (if you run it empty each time, which is a good way to start as you learn)
Insert portafilter in doser forks
Turn on grinder
Thwack thwack the doser handle to distribute grinds into the PF while the grinder does its thing, rotate PF in doser forks to aid in even distribution
Turn off the grinder when the hopper is empty.

After some time and practice, you can fill your hopper and you will learn when to stop the grinder while thwacking the handle to avoid too much grinds in the doser. It is actually pretty simple after a little practice. You can also flush a little extra at the start and end into the grinds tray to be rid of stale grinds, before and after you have the PF in the doser forks.

Comments about the MiniE are valid as well. Albeit pricey.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I'm curious. What about the comments that the doser vanes don't really serve their full purpose until there's a certain mass of ground coffee filling the doser? Do the doser vanes still work well if there's no more than 20 grams of ground coffee in the doser?

Unless doser full of grinds doesn't provide a dose. Don't think of it as a doser but rather a grinds dispenser. Most grinders seem to require some type of doser tape mod for a clean sweep, then work quite while for grinding for single shot etc.

I too prefer grinds dispenser aka doser versus doserless for better de-clumping and cleaner usage. I dispense into a small canister then to PF or vac pot or press pot etc. Virtually zero grinds on counter etc.

[stevendouglas]

My main beef with doserless grinders is the additional clumping, though if you're a dedicated WDT adherent, I suppose it doesn't matter.

I can attest to the clumping. I have the Mini-E (doserless) at home and the Macap M4 (doser) at the office. The clumping is noticable with the Mini-E. Although, as Dan mentions, it's not a problem when using WDT, you really NEED to use WDT if you're going with a doserless. Whereas, with the doser, you can do as you please.

Because I tend to store the beans in the hopper, rather than measuring them each time, I really liked the timer on the Mini-E. However, since I added a timer to the M4, I perfer it to the much more expensive mini-E. You can get the timer on E-Bay for around $20.

After adjusting the timer for the amount of coffee that I want (17-18 grams), all I do is push the button, dose the grounds as they come out, clean out the chute with the non-spoon end of a demi spoon, and dose the last couple of grams. It's pretty easy to fine tune the amount of coffee.

Steve

[jmatt]

Some excellent comments. Thanks to all three recent responses. You may have convinced me to go with the doser model M4 stepless. My wife is going to look at the commercial looking nature of this equipment and think I'm nuts.

What's funny to me, as that people spend much more money on the super-automatics and get horrible espresso without ever knowing they are getting horrible espresso. I was at a store the other day that had a Jura Capresso Impressa F9 set up for giving demo shots. They wanted $2400 and it made the worst shot of espresso I've ever tasted. Now - I'm certain if one played with the grinder settings, used different water, used better beans, etc., that the machine might make better espresso. But really - $2400?

Some how my $1900 seems much more reasonable given the quality of result I should get.

[Martin]

Some excellent comments. Thanks to all three recent responses. You may have convinced me to go with the doser model M4 stepless.

Not so fast! . . . . I removed my Mini doser and spent a bunch for a doserless chute. Here's why. I don't want to keep 2 grinders on my counter. I often pull decaf shots, and I try roasts as SOs before blending. This leads to a preference for grinding by the pre-measured shot(s), and I don't use a hopper at all (instead, a semi-permanant stainless funnel).

I think I've been pretty successful with the WDT workflow-----IMO, a home-espresso innovation that ranks alongside the bottomless pf, and nearly equals the dogbowl.
Martin

[k7qz]

I think I'm going with an Andreja Premium from Chriscoffee.com

I'll take you in a little different direction here. One of my machines is an Andreja and from personal experience I can't imagine you'll be unhappy with it, at this price point.

My big machines are plumbed in, rotary pump units and if I were to spend a little more of your money, I'd have you opt for Chris' kit to do a direct connect water source on your Andreja. Once you've tasted the freedom of never having to fill that reservoir again, you'll wonder how you ever put up with it in the first place... Given the location of my Andreja, I don't have this option and it drives me nuts to have to stop and "fill her up" when pulling bunches of shots in a row (dialing in a new blends preferred temperature or whatever) Again, once you're used to direct plumb-

Grinders? Mazzer, Macap, doser, doserless? Personal preference IMO particularly since the advent of the WDT. I personally like the Cimbali Junior grinder better than the Macap but that's just me...

[jmatt]

. . .My big machines are plumbed in, rotary pump units and if I were to spend a little more of your money, I'd have you opt for Chris' kit to do a direct connect water source on your Andreja. Once you've tasted the freedom of never having to fill that reservoir again, you'll wonder how you ever put up with it in the first place...

I agree with the plumbing. However, we have granite countertops and slate backsplashes. Plumbing will require some serious, irreversable work up front. I need to have my set-up in place for 6 months to a year first. Then, after we're certain on location we can make the commitment to permanently plumbing a unit in.

[SylvainMtl]

I'd consider the Izzo vs Andreja if I think I may plumb-in, otherwise I'd consider the Anita.

And check ebay for a used Super Jolly, it grinds a double in just a couple of seconds...