New Andreja Premium owner, can't pull a good shot

[johney5]

I just purchased an Andreja premium...I had high expectations. I'm upgrading from a Saeco Venezia. I cannot pull a cup and get a really thick espresso, and I don't get much crema. With my Saeco, it was much easier. I'm very disappointed for the moment.

I'm heating the machine up for 30 minutes. I've tried all kinds of grinds, coarse, very fine etc..

Questions (without answering in grams), how much coffee should I use?

I'm using a Starbucks roast...is the coffee responsible for the poor crema?

How fine should the grind be?

Are there any simple tricks to improve my pull?

Thanks for the advice. I've read a lot of articles on the net regarding...

I think I am tamping fairly well, I've tried different pressures...still the results are so erratic.

PS, my goal is to pull a very thick ristretto.

thanks

[Teme]

You should be slightly overfilling the filter basket and then leveling / distributing it evenly before tamping. What kind of a grinder and tamper do you have? Do you perform a cooling flush on the Andreja before pulling a shot? The starbucks coffee may also be (at least part of) the problem...

Br,
Teme

[johney5]

I have a kitchenaid grinder...not the best i know. I set it to the most fine setting...which is slightly like flour. I'm sure there there are grinders that make even more fine grinds...it seems pretty fine though.

If I fill the basket completely, than tamp it...no water makes it through.

so I guess it means this is too fine?

[Teme]

Yes, if the pump is running and the pressure gauge shows a reading (probably more than 9 bar if you haven't adjusted the pressure), but the shot is not developing, it sounds like you are choking the machine. When you are filling the basket and levelling / distributing the coffee, do not press down (or do so very lightly). Once you are done with the distribution, then tamp. If this is what you were doing, then I assume your grind is too fine - try grinding a bit coarser. Keep the dose and tamp the same and experiment with different grind settings until you get where you want to be. Oh, the pressure will take a while to ramp up so you should be seeing the first drops of coffee 5 or 6 seconds after activating the pump.

Br,
Teme

[hperry]

My experience is that very dark roasts like Starbucks tend to have less crema. Might be worth exploring some of the roasters who are recommended from time to time on this site to see if the change in coffee makes a difference.

[Teme]

My experience is that very dark roasts like Starbucks tend to have less crema. Might be worth exploring some of the roasters who are recommended from time to time on this site to see if the change in coffee makes a difference.

I very much agree.

Br,
Teme

[jesawdy]

Which KitchenAid grinder do you have? They have one, maybe two, models that would be appropriate for the class espresso machine you have. You may need to consider a new grinder.

The Saeco Via Venezia, looks to be the same as the Starbucks Barista machine, not a bad machine with some quirks. Your old machine (the Saeco) has a pressurized portafilter, which gives you fake crema. You'll get crema irregardless of the bean quality and age. Now, maybe you purchased another non-pressurized portafilter, and you were getting real crema, not sure based on what you've said so far.

Also, you'll need fresh coffee. I don't think you'll find anyone here that has had a good espresso experience with grocery store bought coffee. Check out the site sponsors here and order some up. Or flip open the local phone book and see if you have a local roaster. I was surprised to find a number of local roasters in my market.

If you are choking the machine, you have too much coffee or are grinding too fine. It may be that you will not be able to obtain a consistently good grind with the grinder you have.

-Jeff

[johney5]

Thanks for the advice so far.

Ok, I changed to illy coffee temporarily, as I'm pretty sure I should get a decent crema from it. I am in Paris, its not so quick to order coffee online.

I tried filling the basket, then a light tamp. With a slightly course grind, I'm getting water. With a very fine grind lightly tamped, I get something that's not horrendous, but its not great. If I tamp it harder, the coffee doesn't flow. Back to a slightly coarser grind, harder tamp...still getting too much liquid.

I still cannot get a great espresso out of the machine, and I'm miles from a Ristretto, my goal.

I'm very frustrated now.

I want to give back the machine. The supplier in Paris that sold it to me was recommended directly by Quickmill.

Any last ideas?

[Teme]

Doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with the machine so I wouldn't give up so quickly. Have some patience and try and get your hands some decent coffee - freshly roasted, that is. Switching to Illy will probably not help much, either.

Br,
Teme

[jesawdy]

Thanks for the advice so far.

Ok, I changed to illy coffee temporarily, as I'm pretty sure I should get a decent crema from it. I am in Paris, its not so quick to order coffee online.

.....

I want to give back the machine. The supplier in Paris that sold it to me was recommended directly by Quickmill.

Any last ideas?

Well, I would hope Paris would have some local roasters, no?

You still haven't answered which KitchenAid grinder you have.

As for a bad machine, you may have one, but I don't think we have exhausted all possibilties yet..... I would still question coffee quality AND grinder and then technique after we know where we are on the first two.

Also, I might recommend that you update your profile so that others will know that you are in Paris, France and not Paris, Texas. That will be helpful to all so that we can make more appropriate recommendations in the future.

-Jeff

[HB]

Ok, I changed to illy coffee temporarily, as I'm pretty sure I should get a decent crema from it.

The few times I tried Illy at home, the crema was whisper thin. Despite the fancy tin, I suspect it was stale. I lived in Paris for a couple years and finding a decent espresso was not easy. However I wasn't looking online at the time and I've since noted several European forums like Too Much Coffee. I've perused a few French-language forums. HB member Jerome a Nantes hasn't posted in awhile, but his site Made in the Garage has some interesting articles and links to other online forums (recommendations from Parisians visiting this forum are welcome, in English or French).

Start with a good coffee. Diagnosing technique and equipment with coffee of unknown freshness will lead to frustration. Another option is to buy some unground coffee from a cafe that has good espresso, if possible.

[cannonfodder]

If you have the KitchenAid Pro, you should be able to get a decent espresso grind out of it. If you are using the A9, it can be modified to get close, but not worthy of your new machine (I have an A9 I use for French press).

The machine will do the job, it just takes a proper grind, good beans (Starbucks, Illy and Lavazza don't count), good tamp and lots of practice.

Source a local roaster and stick with beans that are between 3 and 10 days post roast.

Don't get too discouraged. If exceptional espresso was easy, the cafe's would be out of business. It takes a month before you get a good shot, six months to develop consistent good shots with an occasional exceptional shot and a good year to develop the skills to make consistent exceptional shots. The more you practice, the quicker your skills will develop.

[hperry]

Thanks for the advice so far.

I'm very frustrated now.

I want to give back the machine. The supplier in Paris that sold it to me was recommended directly by Quickmill.

Any last ideas?

Once in a while, by accident, a user with a new machine hits a "god shot" the first time - then spends weeks trying again and again to repeat it. For me, it took ten to twenty shots a day for two or three weeks in order to get reasonably good coffee consistently. Then for no reason (it seems) you go on a "down" cycle for awhile. You have lots of variables to control, but, for me the five most important were fresh coffee, grind (including the grinder) distribution, tamp and temperature. Very dark coffees, particularly if they are not completely fresh, are the hardest for me to do right.

I'd want to get a naked portafilter to analyze whether I am getting grind and distribution right. I have a favorite roaster who roasts really dark, his coffees take the most technique to get right.

I wonder if there might not be a roaster in Paris from whom you can get beans that are only a few days old. I've never had a "canned" brand work correctly.

If you're not getting some "joy" from the adventure, maybe something like a Nespresso would work better for you. I've never had espresso at the level I can produce it from them, but I've had acceptable cups. I got one for my son, because as he says, "Dad - I just want to step up to the machine and have it make it. I'd never do the fooling around you do." What's kind of a challenge for some of us, is drudgery for others. If that's true for you, Nespresso (or something like it) could make sense.

[johney5]

Ok, I changed the coffee to a freshly roasted Latin American mix..Arabica. Pulled about 5 shots today, out of the 5, I threw 4 away. It seems like even if I'm consistent, the machine is not.

I'm trying about 9 grams of coffee, ground very fine...9 setting on the Kitchenaid....I've just been varying the tamp. If I tamp hard...nothing makes it through...if I tamp just ever so slightly...I'm getting a strong coffee with a bit of crema (but it seems like not enough). If I use slightly coarser grains..I get Howard Johnsons...

This is not working. Tommorow, a technician from the shop that sold me the machine is coming to help me out. I'm dieing to see him pull a good shot. I don't beleive he will succeed...any bets?

frustrated in Paris

[Teme]

The information you have provided is very limited so it is difficult to be sure. Just a few questions:

What does the brew pressure gauge show when you are pulling a shot?
Which basket are you using? The stock single I assume?
How hard is you hard tamp? Where is the top of the coffee puck in relation to the ridge in the filter basket after a hard tamp?
What tamper are you using?

If I were a betting man, I would want a bit more information before placing my bet. If I were to gamble, I'd wager that the technician should be able to help you out

Br,
Teme

[johney5]

Although from your point of view the information seems limited, from my novice point of view, it's quite complete. The only real knowledge I have of good coffee, is that I spend alot of time in Italy...and I know that what I drink there, I have never drink anywhere else in the world. I want this at home!

I am using the double basket, because everyone has told me that I have a better chance of success with it.

At 9 grams, I am below the top of the basket by 1/3 (maybe more) of an inch (especially since I'm using the double basket)

I would say I have tried tamping from 30lbs, till just a little birdy's touch...and it seems with this grind the birdy's touch is closer to where I want to be.

I did try filling the basket completely, levelling it with my finger, and then tamping a bit..results were worse, no coffee came out.
And dropping from 9, till 8 on the grinder resolved this...too much liquid came out.

Sorry, I'm mad that I spent so much money on this machine, and it is such a headache....BUT DON'T ANYONE SAY THAT I SHOULD BUY A NESPRESSO MACHINE...my Saeco made a significantly better cup of coffee...with much less hassle.

The machine reads 1.2 bars when it is up to pressure.

thanks again for your patience!

[jesawdy]

Not sure how you are weighing your coffee... if you have a grams scale great! If you have a coffee scoop that came with your Quickmill machine, it is likely a 7 gram or so scoop. I find that 2.5 scoops of most whole beans from said coffee scoop is in the 16-18 gram area.

9 grams is way too little for a double basket... you need 7-9 grams for a single basket, and 14-18 grams for a double basket.

Eureka?!

-Jeff

[Teme]

I am using the double basket, because everyone has told me that I have a better chance of success with it.

At 9 grams, I am below the top of the basket by 1/3 (maybe more) of an inch (especially since I'm using the double basket)

Well, here is an obvious problem. 9 grams in a double basket? I dose 18 grams in a double! I cannot imagine how one could pull a decent shot by using a single dose in a double basket.

I did try filling the basket completely, levelling it with my finger, and then tamping a bit..results were worse, no coffee came out.
And dropping from 9, till 8 on the grinder resolved this...too much liquid came out.

This sounds unusual. Perhaps there is a problem with your grinder? Or you may just need a better quality one to go with your good machine.

Sorry, I'm mad that I spent so much money on this machine, and it is such a headache....BUT DON'T ANYONE SAY THAT I SHOULD BUY A NESPRESSO MACHINE...my Saeco made a significantly better cup of coffee...with much less hassle.

As I and others have pointed out, don't lose your patience. Fully mastering the machine will take some time. Learning the basics will go a long way, but throwing in the towel after a couple of days will not. The Andreja is definitely capable of producing coffee vastly superior to your old Saeco. Spend some time researching and learning. I assume you would be willing to do that since you were prepared to invest the money on this type of a machine in the first place. Forums such as this one are also a great source for help.

The machine reads 1.2 bars when it is up to pressure.

That would be the boiler pressure (the upper gauge). Assuming that you have an Andreja Premium as you say it should have two gauges. What does the brew pressure gauge (the lower one) say when you pull a shot?

Br,
Teme

[johney5]

The Technician came...he saw...he succeeded: perfect shot first time. My Kitchenaid grinder apparently is crap. It seems my big mistakes were dose, and I was grinding much, much too fine. He reduced the grind from a 9 to a 4 1/2. He also showed me how to make a ristretto by starting to pull, and stopping just after the coffee flows , for a second or two, and then restarting for a few seconds only.

Of course as soon as he left I tried to imitate exactly what he did, and it didn't work quite as well. But I did manage to pull a good shot after a couple of tries.

It looks like the machine is fine...

Now I have to work on finding the perfect bean in Paris. My goal, a cappuccino as good as the cappuccinos I get in Calabria near the beach.

[jesawdy]

My Kitchenaid grinder apparantly is crap. It seems my big mistakes were dose, and I was grinding much, much too fine. He reduced the grind from a 9 to a 4 1/2.

So did he increase the dose and decrease the grind size? Or increase the dose and increase the grind size? I would assume 4.5 would be finer than 9, but I am not familiar with your grinder. Did you feel like you are going to need to upgrade the grinder or is it usable?