New Andreja owner with microfoam problem - Page 3

[LeoZ]

this thread has concluded one thing for me - i need to use a thermometer!
i feel like im stopping late b/c of the smell of the milk, like its too hot. but, im not getting good foam. its almost as if it heats up too quickly then large bubbles take over.
i think ill try more milk, and a thermometer.

[CoffeeBeau]

Can this be done with soymilk? Now that I have a clue about 2% thanks to the great video shots, my wife wants me to match the soy latte she got at Intelligentsia a few months ago. Once she tasted the good wine, she cant go back.

Thanks,

Bob

[jesawdy]

No idea on how to froth soy milk, .... BUT you might inquire at Intelly as to what sort of soy milk they use. I just got a subscribtion to Barista magazine (nice magazine BTW) and was surprised to find a number of ads for soy milk products for the specialty coffee industry. If you believe the marketing hype, you get the impression that these are specially formulated blends to allow for good frothing properties. Perhaps, as I said, it is just hype.

Or, you could just throw caution to the wind, and froth some soy.... whatever the local grocery has. I suspect it is just an issue of practice, like all things.

[CoffeeBeau]

Yes, I think it is time to visit the Chicago area coffee gods and godesses at Intelly and Metropolis, and pick their brains a bit. Having upgraded from a Krups steamy to an Anita, the learning curve is a bit steep. Many thanks to the fine contributers on this and CG sites that act as the official owners manual to my machine.

Bob

[cannonfodder]

Milk froth is caused by the protean in the milk, not the fat. Fat actually reduces the bubble, which is why whole milk produces finer microfoam easier than skim milk. The added fat content keeps the bubbles from getting very large. That is also why you want to do your stretching before 90F. Once the milk gets over that, most of the proteins have been cooked and very little to no additional foam is produced.

I have never tried frothing with soy milk, that is kind of like light beer and tofu hotdogs and decaf, it just aint right. If you have issues frothing, try adding a little protean powder to the soy. I don't know what it would do to the taste, but the added protean boost would give you more froth.

Don't believe me? Try taking protean powder from a health store, dissolve it in water and froth it...

[LeoZ]

Milk froth is caused by the protean in the milk, not the fat. Fat actually reduces the bubble, which is why whole milk produces finer microfoam easier than skim milk. The added fat content keeps the bubbles from getting very large. That is also why you want to do your stretching before 90F. Once the milk gets over that, most of the proteins have been cooked and very little to no additional foam is produced.

I have never tried frothing with soy milk, that is kind of like light beer and tofu hotdogs and decaf, it just aint right. If you have issues frothing, try adding a little protean powder to the soy. I don't know what it would do to the taste, but the added protean boost would give you more froth.

Don't believe me? Try taking protean powder from a health store, dissolve it in water and froth it...

protein foams like a mofo! i think its from the type of enzymes used to make the protein, especially manufactured whey protein.

[CoffeeBeau]

Hmm, interesting. I will have to give a try. But first I must wait for my replacement pressure stat for my week old Anita

Bob

[HunkaBurninLove]

OK, even after a couple of months of practice I don't see any improvement:



And the pour:

[CoffeeBeau]

OK, now lets shed some light on the microfoam thing. First bleed out the steam wand of excess water in the HX line. Then bury the tip in a bit to warm the milk, then bring the tip up a bit to slowly get some movement in the milk, and let the froth ride up as you lower the pitcher. I use 2%, but most prefer whole.

Use some love, and mojo, and ditch the large thermometer. I have yet to see a good barista use one.

Next time I froth, I will try to take a movie and up load it.

Best of luck

Bob

[HunkaBurninLove]

... and ditch the large thermometer. I have yet to see a good barista use one.

Yep, that's why I'm still using a thermometer. I'm not a good barista

[CoffeeBeau]

Good point about the thermometer, it will take that back. But do try dropping the pitcher to just below the tip, this seems to get a nice foam with the small bubbles that your are looking for, ie riding the foam up. If you drop it too close to the end, then the evil soap bubbles will surface.

Bob

[LeoZ]

the only thing i see wrong is that youre not sinking the tip in toward the end, this should help spread the stretched milk everywhere. it looks perfect, its just not distributed throughout the pitcher

[arossphoto]

OK, even after a couple of months of practice I don't see any improvement:

I'm still struggling with my Vetrano as well, so I'm no expert. But when I look for differences between your video and Cannonfodder's, I see a difference in the angle of the steam wand. Cannonfodder seems to have the wand at more of an angle, while yours appears to be pointing almost straight down. Does this make any difference?


Cannonfodder


HunkaBurninLove

I'm also still a bit confused about the movement I'm supposed to be creating in the pitcher. Should I be creating a whirlpool effect like I would see in a draining sink, or should it be a vertical whirlpool swirling from top to bottom?

Cheers,

Andrew

[HB]

I'm still struggling with my Vetrano as well, so I'm no expert. But when I look for differences between your video and Cannonfodder's, I see a difference in the angle of the steam wand. Cannonfodder seems to have the wand at more of an angle, while yours appears to be pointing almost straight down. Does this make any difference?

HBL has an Andreja with a lower volume tip than your Vetrano, so the optimal techniques aren't the same. Looking at the video, I would have stretched for longer and introduced slightly more air during the stretching phase, assuming the goal was to produce a cappuccino (as opposed to the wisp of foam of a latte). There wasn't enough foam for a proper pour, but still it was apparent that the microfoam had already separated or was never successfully integrated. The low-volume tips don't rock-n-roll the milk aggressively, so you need to thunk-n-swirl more at the end to assure a homogeneous mixture (I also like a little side-to-side swish motion for combining microfoam).

I'm also still a bit confused about the movement I'm supposed to be creating in the pitcher. Should I be creating a whirlpool effect like I would see in a draining sink, or should it be a vertical whirlpool swirling from top to bottom?

For most espresso machines, including the Vetrano, I prefer this direction:


From earlier in this thread (link)

I angle the wand more for the low-volume tips since they don't push the milk around easily. Otherwise the whirlpooling is more like a draining sink. Practice creating the desired motion with water (be careful to watch the water temperature to avoid scalding yourself!).

[cannonfodder]

Different machines require different techniques. My Gaggia Factory lever (the photo above), my Isomac and my Faema all use different techniques.

You video looks close, very very close. I would offer to stop by if I were traveling in your area but your location is not set in your profile. I will be in Newark, Philadelphia and New York City the last week of the month.

Keep in mind that you can also steam too quickly. That is not normally a problem with a home machine but the commercial machines with 2bar steam boilers will actually heat milk too fast. I was discussing it with Jim a couple of days ago. The accepted minimum to develop the sweetness in the milk is 15 seconds.

[mrgnomer]

I agree with the whirlpooling. As far as I know for latte's you don't need a lot of foam. Stretching 'till about 70F is enough. After that it's whirling the foam throughout the rest of the volume of milk. The better the rolling vortex and whirlpool the tighter I find the foam gets. I don't let it sit at all after frothing either. Knock it to get out the larger bubbles, give it a good spin and pour right away. The best vortex comes with with the wand at a good angle, just off to the right and pointing to where a good clockwise roll starts happening.