New Andreja owner with microfoam problem - Page 2

[HunkaBurninLove]

Ahhh....those are great suggestions. I tried them and shot the following video:




Normally, I start with the tip submerged then turn on the steam but it's a little hard to shoot the video and steam milk one handed.

Do I need to sink the tip more? Tilt the jug more/less?

[SLC]

It looks like you need more steam power? Are you above 1? If you are then there should be more milk swirling going on.

[cannonfodder]

The motion looks correct. You can clearly see the rolling milk in the back of the pitcher. You may try surfing the tip just a hair higher at the beginning so you incorporate more air and get more microfoam, but you have it. Now it is an issue of practice but you are almost there.

I just did another video with my lever machine, another shot and milk frothing. I will edit them tonight and post them to my lever thread in the lever machine forum.

[arossphoto]

I'm still getting hit and miss results steaming with my Vetrano as well, but something occurred to me today that may be a total newbie question and I just had to ask:

Do you always steam milk the same way regardless of what type of drink you're making? Do you steam differently for a latte and a cappuccino, or is the milk just poured differently to deliver more or less foam?

Thanks,

Andrew

[HB]

No, the milk for a cappuccino has a longer stretching period to allow for the introduction of more air. That translates into a higher temperature transition point between different drinks. I don't use a thermometer nowadays, but for cappuccinos the stretching phase continues in earnest until 100F (some claim as high as 140F) and only 80F for lattes.

From listening to your video's soundtrack, I agree with Dave, the wand is positioned about 2-3mm too low during the initial stretch (really I'm not joking, "the zone" is really that small). If you haven't done so, try storing the pitcher in the freezer. It adds 10-15 seconds of stretch time.

[cannonfodder]

For lattes, and my pitiful attempt at art, I find anything beyond 80F too dry and viscous. It just does not pour as nicely for me. I usually stop around 70-80F. For cappuccinos it is about another 3 seconds to develop the thicker head. I have never tried stretching to 140F. I would think you would end up with something like Starbuck's dry, arid, I am drinking sawdust, foam.

I just uploaded a frothing session on my lever machine in the lever machine forum.

[HunkaBurninLove]

Glad to know I'm on the right track.

I read about the hint to stretch less than you think, but I'll gradually increase the stretch position.

The pitcher is a 12oz pitcher, stored in the freezer. That video was with skim milk (it was expired so I was going to throw it out, anyway), but I usually use 2%.

Back to practicing (and looking at CF's video).

[cannonfodder]

[HunkaBurninLove]

Sure...rub it in, CF

[cannonfodder]

Well, it was not intended to be a taunt. If you look closely at the tip, you will see a very tiny dark spot. That is where the top hole in the steam wand is just barely breaching the surface, or rather the force of the steam coming from that top steam wand hole creating a very teeny tiny vortex at the end of the steam tip. That is where the air is introduced into the milk. Same rolling action you were getting, but the tip is just a hair higher in the milk.

Once you get the hang of it, microfoam will become second nature. You will wonder why it was so hard to get the hang of. You can froth milk in almost any container once you learn you machine, hence the McDonald's cup.

Oh crap!! I just broke the first rule of coffee roasting, pay attention and don't get distracted. I just incinerated a batch of Brazil Poco Fundo while typing this.

[HunkaBurninLove]

I know you weren't taunting me. Just giving you a hard time

Thanks to your suggestions, the microfoam has been a little more consistent when I froth. The tip about the "dark spot" is useful. But the big question is:



Can I get the right consistency to pour latte art?????




I posted the same question on CG....I'm having trouble getting the right consistency to pour latte art. I think my foam bubbles are a little large so my latte's surface has some craters.

But I guess I have to walk before I can run.....

[cannonfodder]

Can I get the right consistency to pour latte art?????

Yes, you can.

You have the equipment, your video has the correct motion, now practice and patience is what you need. Keep in mind that I have been using that machine in the video for almost two years now. I have learned the machine and gotten Zen with the process, but to date, my latte art looks more like an evergreen tree in a surrealist painting or a scene from the old 'The Blob' movie. But that is just paint on the car, what matters is underneath.

Folks like 'king seven' pour more shots in day than most of us do in a couple of weeks. Practice makes perfect. One side note, I don't normally use a thermometer, even in the Styrofoam cup. With a steel pitcher, you can use touch to judge temperature, in Styrofoam you have to use sound and look. Listen to the frothing, you will hear the pitch change and the motion of the milk change. Well, maybe not the motion, it is hard to see in the video, but you will hear when the milk tells you it is time to stop stretching and when it is time to stop texturing. That is what I mean by getting Zen with the milk, live in that moment and all is well grasshopper.

[SuperT]

This video has single handedly taught me which direction I need to go for microfoam. I'm so much closer now than ever. Amazing!

Thanks,
T

[mrgnomer]

HB wrote:'Heh heh... and online forums are replete with new Silvia owners begging for help, or searching for alternative steam tips. Practically every vendor offers a "easier" one, which typically end up in the drawer after a few months (I sold mine). It's all what your used to, I guess.'

Ha! no begging here

My first try with the Vetrano was a bit soap bubbly but the foam was better than the Silvia's. I did get used to the Silvia but I find the Vetrano's steam is much drier and stronger. Maybe it's the dry steam or the holes of the Vetrano but when clearing the wand the Vetrano's steam doesn't look as strong as the Silvia's, probably because the Silvia's was more wet and made more noise. That's deceptive. The Vetrano's steam is plenty strong and I find I need more finesse than with the Silvia. I can get a stronger vortex going with the Vetrano. I found with a patient, steady hand, the microfoam came easier and was much finer than the Silvia's.

[Blixy_cafe]

Hi guys,

I'm new to this website and came across it while checking out another. I saw cannonfodder's video and, you may find this dorky but thanks for sticking you finger in the foam. The white doesn't always let you see the consistency of the foam and how it should be and I realized it should almost look like thickened milk and not necessarily like foam. What I mean is that there shouldn't be that much difference between the milk and the foam. Don't know if you get my drift . Anyhow...thanks for the demo... helped tons in knowing that I'm over-foaming my milk...thanks.

[HB]

Maybe it's the dry steam or the holes of the Vetrano but when clearing the wand the Vetrano's steam doesn't look as strong as the Silvia's, probably because the Silvia's was more wet and made more noise. That's deceptive.

I believe Silvia's steam pressure is significantly higher than an HX boiler (someone with a PID'd Silvia can confirm - as high as 1.8 bar?). I borrowed Mike's Silvia for a PID'd Silvia Flash Review and was surprised by it. The steam is wet, but the pressure is great. The stock one-hole tip was fast for a 12 ounce pitcher, but microfoam was no problem.

The white doesn't always let you see the consistency of the foam and how it should be and I realized it should almost look like thickened milk and not necessarily like foam.

That's part of the reason I've never bothered making a video - it's nothing but a whiteout. Dave's finger dab made the difference between soap bubbles and microfoam obvious. Pouring a cappuccino using a glass cup would probably work too. That's what I was trying for in the photo below...

From Buyer's Guide to the Quick Mill Vetrano

Close-up of the first moments of the "cinnamon cascade"
formed by the separating layers of a macchiato

[mrgnomer]

I believe Silvia's steam pressure is significantly higher than an HX boiler (someone with a PID'd Silvia can confirm - as high as 1.8 bar?). I borrowed Mike's Silvia for a PID'd Silvia Flash Review and was surprised by it. The steam is wet, but the pressure is great. The stock one-hole tip was fast for a 12 ounce pitcher, but microfoam was no problem.

That could be. Still, I find with the Vetrano I'm getting a much better vortex and can roll the milk in a way that I couldn't with the Silvia using the same amount of milk and the same pitcher. Maybe it's just me.

[cannonfodder]

I am glad that little video is helpful. The microfoam bubbles will be sized like whipped cream. Very small and dense bubbles. The foam and milk should be one homogeneous mixture which separates out after the pour.

I use to froth and then pour into a glass to see if there is a separation in the foam. There should not be at first, then the milk and foam will slowly separate and you will see the divider line forming in the bottom of the glass. That will slowly grow larger as the separation completes.

You can see a small divot in the cup after I run my finger through it, but only slightly. The foam should backfill just like crema. If it does not, you stretched too long and the foam is too viscous to pour.

[theilff]

Thank you so much Cannonfodder! I watched that McDonald's cup foaming video this morning around 2-3 am and it finally clicked. When I went to work today I tried a total of 2 times, and I was creating delicious, consistent microfoam. You have opened my eyes! I seriously thought that what I was doing before was microfoam, now I know better. This stuff is much sweeter.

[cannonfodder]

I have to do a video on my home machine, it takes around 15 seconds to steam 4oz. I can pull my shot and have my milk frothed before the shot finishes. I just LOVE big boilers.

I was going to do one today but decided to spend the day cooking a batch of chicken stock and splitting a cord of wood.

I want to try to catch the rolling milk on video as it separates in the cup.