Need some help with my Brasilia Portofino 1gr

[3am]

So you walk out of work one day and find that the catering company next door has chucked what appears to be an almost never used Brasilia Portofino out into the alley. The only thing missing seems to be the portafilter. Hmnm... After a little research and an email to Italy, you get a copy of the owners manual... After a little more research, you find a parts dealer about thirty miles away where you can get a portafilter... A little re-routed plumbing from your pre-existing RO system, and you have your very own espresso machine... Up, and running!

Segue to my reality..

After finding and clearing a blockage from where the level meter attaches to the bottom of the boiler (the boiler was not filling, even though it looked like it was full), I am able to extract a reasonable cup of espresso, not great, but I have time to learn. The problem was when I ran water through the hot water tap, I got a heck of a lot of steam, and at first, relatively clear water. Then a lot of steam, and milky white murky water. Now, a lot of steam, water, and brown crud. Still clear water through the group head, and nothing seems amiss with the steam wand, but the water wand.. yecch! Any notions?

Thanks! Mark.

PS. I probably should mention that this is my first espresso machine, and my first time ever trying to make espresso.

[eastpresso]

Welcome!

..and congrats on your find

The machine has probably been sitting there for quite a while and you need to descale it:

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/water-scaling-and-descaling-with-hx-machines-t751.html#p6351

Since this is you first machine I strongly recommend you do some reading in the resources section. Your machine is a heatexchanger (hx) the circuit for the boiler and the espresso brewing circuit are separated that is why you get clean water from the group and brown crud from the water tap. HX Schematic here

http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html

Which Portafino are you using - this one?

brasilia-portofino-single-group-t4406.html#p48296

Espressoparts.com will be able to help you with parts if you need anything.

http://www.espressoparts.com/category/03.01.brasilia/

Good luck!

[3am]

Bernhard,

Thanks for the information!

1. I took a look at the diagram, and the links you sent, but I'm still not quite sure how to introduce descaling agent into the HX. I can get it into the boiler through the steam connection, but the HX itself is confusing me.

2. Yes, it is that one! a 2002 build

3. Thanks for the link, might be better than driving.

Mark.

Welcome!

..and congrats on your find

The machine has probably been sitting there for quite a while and you need to descale it:

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/water-scaling-and-descaling-with-hx-machines-t751.html#p6351

Since this is you first machine I strongly recommend you do some reading in the resources section. Your machine is a heatexchanger (hx) the circuit for the boiler and the espresso brewing circuit are separated that is why you get clean water from the group and brown crud from the water tap. HX Schematic here

http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html

Which Portafino are you using - this one?

brasilia-portofino-single-group-t4406.html#p48296

Espressoparts.com will be able to help you with parts if you need anything.

http://www.espressoparts.com/category/03.01.brasilia/

Good luck!

[eastpresso]

Mark,

1. use an external tank (water bottle). As long as the boiler is full (or the machine assumes it's full because you grounded the autofill probe) and you pull a shot, the hx will automatically get the descaling solution from the tank.

You should also fill the boiler from the external tank. Empty the boiler first. Re-read the instructions.

Good luck!

[3am]

Bernhard,

Thanks again for the input! Maybe I'm just dense, or missing something in the instructions (I do have a slight problem interpreting semantic nuances) I understand grounding the autofill probe, but it's not clear to me how or even where to hook a bottle full of descaler to the HX. Do I disconnect my water supply and hook it in there? If it's in a bottle, wont the pump have issues once the bottle collapses due to the suction?(should I invert the bottle and poke a hole in the bottom, or is it bad to have air pulled through the pump once the bottle is empty?)

Thanks again!

Mark.

Mark,

1. use an external tank (water bottle). As long as the boiler is full (or the machine assumes it's full because you grounded the autofill probe) and you pull a shot, the hx will automatically get the descaling solution from the tank.

You should also fill the boiler from the external tank. Empty the boiler first. Re-read the instructions.

Good luck!

[eastpresso]

Mark,

yes, disconnect your hose from the water supply and put it into a water bottle (or bucket) with descaling solution, there
will be no 'collapsing' don't worry (just don't run your pump dry!). Many people are running their machines this way permanently http://www.home-barista.com/forums/do-most-plumb-in-machines-require-external-pressure-t1089.html

One example wit a flojet pump

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/post-pic-of-your-home-espresso-setup-t5194-180.html#p74771

and one with just a tank and no flojet

http://www.kaffeewiki.de/index.ph...imali_mit_Tank.jpg

In your case it is really only a temporary solution to get the descaling solution in there so you don't need the flojet or a nice tank as in the above examples. The rotary pump will manage as long as there is no air in the hose(you can vent air from the hose by loosening the hose just a little where it attaches to the machine if necessary).

[3am]

Now I get it!

I guess I needed a bit more sleep ¦-)

Thanks!

Mark

[3am]

One last question,

I have run descaler through the HX as instructed, and I have run descaler through the boiler. I am still getting brown deposits from the hot water tap (although not nearly as much). Looking at the pipe run for the tap, it attaches to the lower right of the boiler. Since the boiler level meter goes down as I dispense hot water, I'm wondering if I need to do another round of descaling the boiler, or is there someplace else I should be looking? Also, is it normal in this type of machine to get steam as the water dispenses, or should it be a normal clean flow?

Mark.

[eastpresso]

Looks like you're doing good so far

Try to empty the boiler as much as possible before the next descaling run (on the cold machine loosen the hot water pipe on the lower right and drain the boiler from there, be careful not to damage the fitting! Do NOT apply excessive force).
Retighten the fitting, fill the boiler with descaling solution and repeat descaling until the water from the hot water tap is clear. When you refill the boiler try to measure how much water enters the boiler until the autofill stops (maybe the water level in the is too low and the autofill probe needs some adjusting) before you detach the wire and fill any further.

The 'boiler level meter' is the pressure gauge that should be idling somewhere around 0.9-1.1bar (the green area) if you have more than that you need to change the pressurestat setting. The boiler is filled with steam and hot water. Some sputtering and steam is normal when you open the tap but should lessen as you drain hot water from the boiler and cold water enters the boiler again.

When you work on the inside of your machine PLEASE UNPLUG the machine. Switching off is not good enough.

Hopefully someone else will jump in if I say something stupid - until then it's just your common sense and me

Be careful.

[3am]

Thanks again!

I used Durgol for the first descalings, is there something else you recommend?

Boiler pressure is where it should be.

Should I let the boiler fill until water comes out the top relief valve?

Do I turn on the machine to let it heat up with descaler in it? or do I descale, drain from the bottom, flush, then heat it up so water will be forced from the hot water tap?

Mark.

Looks like you're doing good so far

Try to empty the boiler as much as possible before the next descaling run (on the cold machine loosen the hot water pipe on the lower right and drain the boiler from there, be careful not to damage the fitting! Do NOT apply excessive force).
Retighten the fitting, fill the boiler with descaling solution and repeat descaling until the water from the hot water tap is clear. When you refill the boiler try to measure how much water enters the boiler until the autofill stops (maybe the water level in the is too low and the autofill probe needs some adjusting) before you detach the wire and fill any further.

The 'boiler level meter' is the pressure gauge that should be idling somewhere around 0.9-1.1bar (the green area) if you have more than that you need to change the pressurestat setting. The boiler is filled with steam and hot water. Some sputtering and steam is normal when you open the tap but should lessen as you drain hot water from the boiler and cold water enters the boiler again.

When you work on the inside of your machine PLEASE UNPLUG the machine. Switching off is not good enough.

Hopefully someone else will jump in if I say something stupid - until then it's just your common sense and me

Be careful.

[eastpresso]

Read the instructions:

water-scaling-and-descaling-with-hx-machines-t751.html

I am not familiar with durgol. Jim's instructions are excellent and cover your questions?

Edit: Comments concerning use of citric acid removed in response to Michael Teahans post further on in this thread.

[jesawdy]

Mark-

I suspect your machine has seen some serious use (or misuse as the case may be). There may be significant scale that will not come out with just a few in situ descales. There may be heavy scale, milks solids, mold or other yummy things that are not dissolving or breaking up easily. If you are feeling adventurous and handy, you might see if you can peer into the boiler someway (unplugged of course), perhaps via the vacuum breaker or boiler safety valve with a flashlight? The best view inside the boiler is afforded by draining the boiler and removing the heating element. While it is a bit of a pain to do so, removing the element will quickly answer just how much scale and/or cleaning you may have ahead of you. HELPFUL TIP - If your boiler is not equipped with a boiler drain valve or if it is stopped up/slow, the fastest way to drain the boiler is to pop off the vacuum breaker valve and syphon the boiler empty into a bucket.

You want the descale solution to be hot, so yes you can leave the machine on if you like BUT if you are forcing the boiler to be extremely overfilled (i.e. to the top), this would be messy and dangerous! Reread Jim's instructions or refer to Ian's simplified summary for a step-by-step summary.

[3am]

Thanks everyone for all your replies!

I went ahead and did a second descaling, and I can happily say that the water from the boiler is running nice and clear! (for now anyway)

I finally got around to getting the old camera out, and I have included a few pictures. This is basically the way I found the machine. I haven't really given it a good wipe down yet, as I wanted to make sure I could get it to work first.

You can see that other than a bit of dust, the insides are really clean. Even the drip tray had no residue in it. I seems like they couldn't get it to work on the first try, left the water in it, and put it in storage until they chucked it.

Mark

[shadowfax]

That's purty, man!

You're lucky it doesn't look like this... My attempt to get a Brasilia that didn't fare so well. It didn't look as good as yours to start out, though.

Let us know how the 'spresso is.

[eastpresso]

Well done!

Very nice! Looks like it's hardly been used. Now you only need to 'find' a matching grinder If you get around to it you might want to install a delay-on-make relay for preinfusion at some stage

help-adding-timed-relay-to-rotary-wega-for-preinfusion-t1557.html

The pressure build up of the rotary pump is pretty quick..

Have fun!

[rindfest]

nice find! they are several thousand $ new [which yours looks!]

http://www.rosito-bisani.com/osco...index.php?cPath=25

in LA, rosito bisani on La Brea have parts etc,

[3am]

Garrgh!!

So, I'd thought all was well in my boiler...

ahh well,

I have now run descaler through it three times. Twice with Durgol, and Once with Citric acid.
after the last descaling with citric acid, the water ran 99% clear, with only a few tiny black specks.
That was yesterday.

This morning, the water is a dingy brownish green... (again, just the water from the hot water tap)

I am now at a complete loss as to what to do next.

Please help!

Mark.

[mteahan]

From looking at the machine, it is obvious that it didn not likely require a decalcification.

Calcium does not generally produce off color or off taste water. Other contamination, usually milk, is the cause.

Introducing acid into a copper boiler (they are ALL copper and unplated on the inside) is a dubious adventure that has a lot of fans among those too cheap to buy a product actually designed to remove deposits from boilers. Yes, it's cheap, but requires thorough rinsing.

The only copper pan in the kitchen that allows contact with food are dedicated to some candies and beaten raw eggs. Acid in contact with copper produces less than healthy results. Where do you think the green is coming from now.

Short of tearing it down, which is the normal procedure for treating a contaminated boiler, is to turn the machine off, run a hose from the hot water tap to the sink and block open the manual fill valve. Let it run for as long as it takes to really flush thing out. You may have to remove the faucet end to prevent clogs from crap being flushed out.

Unblock the fill valve, leave the water tap open, turn the machine back on and let it get hot enough to push a full steam pitcher of water out before closing it. It will take twice as long to heat up the first time.

The steam and water mix coming from the water tap on this machine, which does not use a tempered mixing valve, is normal. You should adjust the p-stat down a little to perhaps 1.1 from the 1.4 at which it is likely set.

I know that citric acid is an easy to grasp concept. If that's all it took to remove scale and calcium in a safe manner, formulations designed to actually remove it without harming metal or soft components wouldn't exist.

Michael Teahan

[3am]

Everything is clean, fixed, and running well!

Thanks Michael!

Mark.