Need help with lighter roasts on a Pavoni

[da gino]

Hi,

I have had a pavoni for about 3 years and have gotten great results from darker roasts - and I've been roasting my own and producing very full bodied shots. Whenever I use a light (or perhaps even medium) roast, however, my coffee turns bitter. I have a fresh batch of black cat (roasted 3 days ago) a friend brought me and I just can't produce a very good shot. (She, however, is getting good shots out of a good pump machine with the same coffee - I haven't tasted them, but she says they are great and I believe her). I'd love to be able to produce good results from these coffees, too.

I should mention that I'm using 2 day old Macap m4 stepless and I'm still searching for the exact right grind/tamp and also I'm using a chopped portafilter. The crema being produced is visually stunning, but obviously that is secondary when the coffee doesn't taste good. Looking up at the bottom of the portafilter
doesn't show any of the problems from the photos on the chopped portafilter how to on this website (I would say the color is light brown and not red, but not blonding either).

I normally don't make more than 2 shots at a time, but obviously that limitation is a bigger issue when I'm trying to figure out how to go from sink shots to god shots!

Here is my usual routine..

1) Lift handle to pre-infuse for 10 seconds (depending on grind/tamp either the drips start after 5 seconds or don't start until I lower the handle).

2) I pull the handle down which takes about 14 seconds (with a dark roast it seems like if I don't pull through at this speed, it is more likely to be bitter - with my old grinder/grind this took medium force - I'd guess 15-20 lbs of pressure - with the new one it has varied from there on up to almost choking the machine)

3) The coffee continues to flow for a few more seconds so the entire shot including preinfusion, the pull, and the lingering after the pull takes anywhere from 25-32 seconds depending on when I pull the cup away.

With dark roasts, this process produces fantastic coffee that is full bodied and has lots of crema, but again with lighter roasts I've tried altering all these things a little bit without much success. Any advice on what try or change is welcome! I figure finally having a really nice grinder means I should be able to pull this off!

Hugh

[Droshi]

What else have you tried? Or only that routine?

What I would do is first try to find out a dose that works right (since you don't mention what you're using, this might be the place that would affect you the most). If your pulling doubles, start at around 11g and work your way up keeping notes on what you like best.

I would also suggest grinding a bit finer and less tamping pressure, as it will take out some of the variables for you. Also try a 2-3 second pre-infusion and see what happens. To me it's all about experimenting, just don't change everything at once so you know what made the biggest difference.

Goodluck, I'm sure with some time at it you'll find what you like.

[Chert]

Hugh, I occasionally use darker roasts, but generally stick with lighter roasts. I use a Zassenhaus grinder and find that darker roasts for my taste need a coarser grind compared to the lighter ones which require a finer grind. Preinfusion, dosing, and tamp pressure as well as force of lever pressure are the other variables that make using the Stainless Steel Peacock fun and rewarding. For me there are no sink shots as I am too thrifty to waste great coffee. Occasionally a shot that is too bitter or bright turns into a delicious americano. Water, milk and sugar covers many flaws. Just look at the success of Starbucks, etc.

[da gino]

Droshi, I think your tamping advice is quite good. I've made a lot of progress today by tamping much less (around 7 lbs is my guess instead of 30). The coffee is now quite good, but I expect it to be better before the bag runs out! My friend is going to make it for me tomorrow so I can can get another perspective on what this particular blend tastes like from a different, but also good machine.

As for doses, I've been using the double filter with 13g, but I'll try cutting that back a bit and separately try a 2-3 second pre-infusion.

Chert, I think you have good advice with turning the shots that I don't love initially into americanos etc, but the more I've played with the pavoni the more I've wanted to focus on straight shots of espresso. I've gotten greedy in the sense that I only drink a few shots a day, so I want them to be just right.

With dark roasts I never have shots that have to be thrown out, but knowing I could get a good shot out of a dark roast has kept me from having the patience in the past to learn how to do the same with lighter roasts. Now I want to make sure I can do both. I was out in Washington last week (north of Seattle instead of down near you) and had great coffee at two places and while one was a lot like what I've been making, the other was a light roast made on a beautiful gold 50 + year old Gaggia lever machine (it had an eagle on top, so I thought it was going to be an Elektra) and it inspired me to be try to reproduce both shots.

Thanks to both of you for the feedback!

Hugh

[Chert]

da gino,

Could you post the north Seattle location where you had a lever pulled espresso to the LMWDP Guide to Lever Espresso Stands of the World: which can be found at: http://www.home-barista.com/lever-espresso-machines/lmwdp-guide-to-lever-espresso-stands-of-world-t1574-40.html?hilit=lever%20stands%20of%20the%20world#p86383
I'm interested in making it to one of those stands some day.

Thanks!

[da gino]

da gino,

Could you post the north Seattle location where you had a lever pulled espresso to the LMWDP Guide to Lever Espresso Stands of the World: which can be found at: http://www.home-barista.com/lever-espresso-machines/lmwdp-guide-to-lever-espresso-stands-of-world-t1574-40.html?hilit=lever%20stands%20of%20the%20world#p86383
I'm interested in making it to one of those stands some day.

Thanks!

I'd be happy to do so - I'll also post it here. The shop is in Bellingham (about 70 miles north of Seattle) on Railroad and is called Avellino. The machine is not identical to, but looks a lot like the "Gaggia Orione" posted on page 7 of the Lever gallery. It would be a good stop on the drive to Vancouver from Seattle for a coffee enthusiast.

[da gino]

I am happy that I finally am pulling shots that I love on this roast. Here are the things I've changed - I have the machine running a little hotter than I usually do for darker roasts, I am using only 11g instead of 13g, when I tamp - I tap it a few times to distribute the grounds and then the tamp is almost as much just polishing as it is tamping, I preinfuse for only 3-4 seconds instead of 10 and then I pull at my usual pace.

The shots are fantastic and totally different than the dark roast shots that I already love. It is nice to have such a good new alternative. As always, I'll continue to experiment, but thanks to those who gave me advice that helped me get a great starting point.

[Droshi]

Glad to hear things are working out.

I'd also try playing around with a bit more pressure, in your original post you had mentioned 15-20 lbs of pressure, but I've heard it said somewhere around 40 lbs hits close to the 9 bar mark.

Anyway, just gives you another variable to play with, and to see if you like the shots or not.

Goodluck.

[da gino]

Just in case anyone is having the same problem I was having I thought I should follow up because I figured out what was really going on. The second time I ordered Black Cat I figured out that the problem wasn't as much that I was doing something wrong as that the coffee needed to offgas for longer than I realized. I thought I was getting better technique for the coffee over the first week, but the second time I ordered it again the first shots weren't great, but they got better and better over the course of the week. It turned out that my original technique (30 lb tamp etc) made great shots as long as I let the beans age a little bit.

This was then confirmed when I was reading the thread

http://www.home-barista.com/coffees/can-10-day-old-beans-stored-in-paper-bag-with-clips-produce-something-drinkable-t7745.html

where JohnB says the following...

Intelligentsia tells me their B/C & Kid-O doesn't hit its peak until day 10. He suggests leaving the coffee to age in the bag until at least day 8, preferably day 10 as thats how they do it at their cafes. I'll be trying this with the shipment that is due here tomorrow as getting tasty shots out of either in the first week is near impossible. After 7-8 days past roast the flavor improves noticeably.