Need help! My shots ain't good!

[Mook]

Being the new owner of a fiorenzato bricoletta which hasn't produced a single good shot is frustrating me. I'm new in the world of coffee and for the past month i've been trying to soak up as much information as I could. I've been lurking this very helpful website and a week ago I've decided to buy a 5 year old second hand bricoletta and a proper 58mm tamper. I've also borrowed a nice industrial looking fiorenzato grinder from my brother restaurant.
Pretty serious tools I recon. Good enough to produce a good espresso.

Hooking up the machine was pretty exciting. Everything seemed to work and it seemed the last owner had taken good care of her. Of course, being a beginner I couldn't be and still can't be a 100% sure, but still, everything seems a-oke. Steam pressure between .8 and 1.3, pump seems oke, no dings on the machine, still nice and shiny, no worries.

So the first shot I've pulled was a very fast one, -15 seconds. No problem I thought. I'll adjust the grind and she'll be fine.

Now here it comes. I've been fiddling for days now and its still not fine. I've used two sorts of beans, Illy and a cheaper brand, not resulting in something wildly different. It helped for shottime to set the grinder at its finest and brewing a 7 gram shot. Then the shottime was alright but the coffee tasted burned and it had thin crema with big airbubbles. Believing the grinder was not working well enough I decided to buy preground illy coffee and a pack of some cheaper brand but she is still running way too fast.
The only way of pulling a 60ml shot between 20 and 30 seconds is to overpack the filter with 11 to 15 grams of coffee resulting in a harsh tasting espresso(with and without the cooling down flush). And what is also bothering me is the amount of crema. Its on there alright, but were talking millimeters. I've seen the picture on Al's rule and there is so much perfect looking, lovely coloured crema on there. It's taking up 1/3 of the total shot! Yes, I like that but how do I achieve this. Couldn't be lack of tools? Or could it? My skills ain't perfect but good enough to produce better. Or am I missing something very big here? Please help me!

Thanks in advance! Ruben

[miKe mcKoffee]

Fresh beans make a world of difference. (4 days to max 2 weeks post roast) Practicing with sub-par beans is a waste of time and effort leading only to frustration. Illy's canned beans are not beans I aspire down to. I guarantee the Bricoletta is quite capable of excellent shots.

Also if just learning barista skills it's easier to pull double basket shots than single basket shots so suggest mastering the double shot first.

[jesawdy]

Sounds as though there may be some confusion here.... 60 ml would be a double shot, but you mention overpacking a single basket.

In another thread, John Weiss quotes the standard:

An oft-quoted statement from the Italian Espresso National Institute defines a single espresso as 7g in 25sec producing 25ml (including crema), so a traditional double would be 14g in 25sec producing 50ml (1.7oz). In this instance I believe the Italians have it right.

Shoot for 25ml, or switch to the double (14g) basket.

Also, it may be possible that the grinder is not up to the task, needs cleaning or new grinding burrs.
If you can provide more details on the grinder that might help.

[cannonfodder]

I've used two sorts of beans, Illy and a cheaper brand,

We have found the problem. I use to use Illy in another life as well, and the results were the same. Dump the silver can and grocery store beans. As Mike points out, freshness is the key.

[Mook]

Thanks you all! First of all I will buy some more fresh beans. Believing the Illy beans should do well was a mistake. So no more trips to the supermarket. I guess I need to see the experts.

And Jesawdy, your right about your statement from the Italian Espresso National Institute. My bad.

As for the grinder I can tell you the brand, which is also Fiorenzato, but I don't know which model. I've checked there site but I couldn't find it. This type is probably an older version. Tough the thing looks sturdy and very professional. It weighs over 15 kg and is up for the big task with a huge reservoir for the beans and for the ground coffee and a tamper mounted on there as well. A bit over the top but well...
When I got it I took out the burrs and cleaned them. Adjusting the grind is easy and the grind it self looks fine to me as well.

Okee, sorry to be so long winded. I'll get more fresh! beans and sharpen my skills.

Thanks! Ruben

Oo and ps. Being consistent on the amount of coffee is not easy for me having no scale. Thats why I use a 7 and 10 gram spoon. Probably the single best thing. Now I've been studying the Stockfleths move and it always includes overpacking the filter. Now if I put 7 or 8 grams of coffee in my filter I need to get my fingers in there all the way to distribute, instead of using your finger as a straight edge. How is that?

[timo888]

... the coffee tastes burned ....

When the coffee has a burnt taste, one likely explanation is too high a brew water temperature. What is your cooling flush regimen?

The only way of pulling a 60ml shot between 20 and 30 seconds is to overpack the filter with 11 to 15 grams of coffee resulting in a harsh tasting espresso(with and without the cooling down flush).

Are you using the cylindrical double basket or the conical single basket? 15g is ok for a double basket, not really much of an overdose (many shots you see pictured are dosed to 18g). A double basket with 11g is underdosed. A single basket with 11g is somewhat overdosed.

Regards
Timo

[HB]

Now I've been studying the Stockfleths move and it always includes overpacking the filter. Now if I put 7 or 8 grams of coffee in my filter I need to get my fingers in there all the way to distribute, instead of using your finger as a straight edge. How is that?

With no settling, the single / double baskets are amazingly close to their claimed 7 / 14 grams. If you wish to updose, tap the portafilter gently against the grinder fork about halfway through the dosing. This settles the grounds and allows you to increase the dosage; with practice, you can increase the dosage by reasonably precise increments. Downdosing by volume can be a little trickier because level cutting across the top will yield a "normal" weight. You can either scrape off a little with a curved finger, or fluff up the grounds with the WDT.

Until you get enough practice, consider checking the dosage by weight to confirm consistency. Once you're consistently dosing within 0.3 grams of the desired dosage, put the scale away (related thread: Exercises for tuning your barista techniques).

[cannonfodder]

You may want to take a look at the Tamp and Dose Techniques Digest as well.

[Mook]

You may want to take a look at the Tamp and Dose Techniques Digest as well.

Thanks cannonfodder, I've seen it before and I wondered. Assuming that is a double basket I've been trying to do the same thing and thereby following hb's advice. The first thing while practising is packing the double basket with coffee. Now this always includes the little pile so your index finger can distribute the coffee while finding support on the edge of the basket.
So I thought about how much coffee there would be in there. Using no tools, my aim is to put between 14 and 20 grams in there. Funny thing is, is that I always end up with more coffee then I would like; more than 20 grams. I fill the basket picture-perfect, distribute the coffee filling in the lows and flattening the high spots and then I toss it back in my 10gr. spoon. I need to fill the spoon twice and I want to be as accurate as possible using a straight edge after the spoon is filled. The only thing is that I end up with two portions of 10gr. and two little extra piles making up for about 3,4 or 5 gram.

So yes I am still a bit in the dark if it comes to basics like this. And to demonstrate the kind of newbie I am I like to tell this story.
I've been working in a bar for half my life. I've served hundreds and hundreds of coffees but only last week I came to the understanding that an espresso is a 25-30ml drink. I couldn't believe it! For half my life I've served people with 60ml coffees (brewed with 7/8/9 grams of coffee). And for all that time, if I'd order an espresso in any bar I would get a 60 ml drink! Shocking, but this is the way the Dutch people drink their espresso.

All of this gave me a really bad start. Grinding about a kilo of beans pulling 7 gram shots with 60 ml of water between 20 and 30 seconds.
But now I could start off the proper way. With all the advice I've got from you friendly people I was on the right way for the perfect shot. And I think every one should drink the coffee the way they like it but I like to get the standard right first.
Problem is that it isn't perfect at all. With my fresh beans grind to 7 grams of coffee brewed with 25-30ml water I still pour them too fast. Say 15 seconds. Taste-wise I am in a whole new world, never drunk em that straight up. So in that area I need to gain more experience. But by the looks of it, it should have more crema on there now suggesting a pour extraction.
So grind finer I say. But it's already fine as dust and knocking out the coffee is a pain since the residue is very wet, sticky and muddy. Also adjusting the grinder any finer would make the burrs eat each other.

I got really close with the double shots on the grind setting I got now (the already-really-fine-on). Brewing 14 grams coffee with 60 ml water between 20 and 30 seconds worked out okee. But when using the single basket it poured faster again. Yes... 15 seconds. I was back at the start again.

But I should stop here and show some pictures of the set up I got so there's a bit more detail. Nevertheless a big thank you for all those suggestions.

Ruben

[jrtatl]

Hi Ruben,

Welcome to HB. Try not to sweat the details.

BUT, also realize that spoons cannot measure weight. They can only measure volume. So, when you say you are measuring into a "10 gram spoon," you are not actually measuring 10 grams of coffee by weight. You are measuring whatever volume that "10 gram spoon" says you are measuring.

If you really want to get anal about grams, measure with a scale. Otherwise, just distribute until you have a good pile on top of the pF, then level and distribute evenly, then sweep off the excess, then tamp, then brew. Then enjoy.

[cannonfodder]

Evening Mook, sorry about the slow response. I got a bad case of influenza and have been flat on my back for three days.

If you are getting over 20grams in a double basket, you must be grinding very fine or packing very hard. The wet soupy puck is a side effect of too fine a grind. I do not use a spoon or any other device, to measure my dose. Time has taught me when it is right. I grind and dose into the portafilter to a small mound. Then, without pressing down, I level the top of that mound and give the portafilter one thump as in the video. Then I level and tamp. That gets me 17 grams every time (or most the time, some beans are denser and hit 18 grams).

In your previous post, you stated that you were using old beans. Have you sourced some fresh roast? Stale beans will give you a tight grind, fast shot and no crema.

[Mook]

Hi cannonfodder,

I'm really thinking my grind is too fine, just a few setting finer and the burrs will jam! But grinding coarser results in a very fast shot time and poor crema.

It's been another few more days of experimenting where I've decided to do things differently. That is in the way I've seen it on this forum. Just before that I just needed to know once and for all how much 7 grams of coffee really was. So I went to a local coffee shop where they weigh soft drugs on very precise scales and asked the guy if he could weigh my coffee. So he did that with my beans and ground coffee and again I saw that 7 grams of coffee ain't that much. I found out that a 7gram spoon isn't that far from what it claims to be.
I went home and dosed my single filter a few times. But again, I couldn't make the pile stick out that much so I could distribute the proper way. So okee, it could be the filter that is of a different type and too deep. But I stopped wondering and threw away the spoon and the 7 gram concept.
I started dosing like I've seen experts doing it.

That's when things got better. I bought freshly roasted beans, a measuring cup and I had my stopwatch. I dosed my double shot filter w/ a little pile, pinky-distribute technique and after a few grind setting I got it. The colour looked fine, shot time good etc. Although I'd liked to see a bit more crema on it; it made up for about 10% of the drink.

But taste-wise, that most important aspect of all?... Ouii-uggg! Swallowing it fast was alright, but when leaving the coffee in your mouth for a bit longer, left a pretty sour taste right on the middle of my tongue. I don't mind a lot of body but drinking this just wasn't pleasant. So there's something not quite right. A soury taste suggests cold water, a very uneven extraction and what more. I thought my pump pressure was too high but a unloaded group leaves just about 2.5 ounce of water in 10 seconds.

Still, I will keep trying and any more suggestions a very much welcome.

Kindest regards,

Ruben