My La Pavoni is dead

[Gatewood]

So very dead. The lever won't stay up, and no water will come out of the shower head. If it's cold, the lever will stay up. As soon as it gets hot, the lever goes down and no amount of pumping will issue one drop of water out the shower head. I'm afraid I did it, but it already had problems. I took off the group/lever thing, removed the lever, and tried to push the piston down so that I could clean the screen. I couldn't push the piston down, so I reassembled it (nope; the handle is NOT upside down) and now not a trickle of water doth ensue. Before, I got a trickle, but only a trickle, which was why I tried this. I'm discouraged, and that Gaggia I was considering for the studio is going to have to do for us at home until I can find a way to solve this. I'm open to any suggestions. I'm willing to pull the thing apart again, but since the piston won't go down to the screen, I can't see how it can help. I'll admit to a strong temptation to ebay it with a disclaimer and run like the very devil to the nearest place to get another. I don't think I will; but I'm tempted.

[bill]

Hi Gatewood,
It's been a few years since I had my Pavoni but I think once you've got the lever disconnected from the piston rod all you have to do it tap the top of the rod with a rubber or plastic mallet. The piston is probably hard to just push down like you tried to do. Just tap enough until the piston pushes the screen off. If you go too far the rubber rings will move out of the cylinder and be hard to get back.
Someone else on the forum with recent experience will probably reply to your 'cry for help' soon. Good luck!

[Gatewood]

I tapped. I pushed. I tapped some more. I folded a towel on top of it and hit the crap out of it with a brass hammer. It didn't budge. I read "refeathering the Chrome Peacock" from this forum (Srobinson) and carefully checked it all. All he had to do was push his gently. I mean I clobbered the derned thing. Nada. The thing never budged an inch. Either it was faulty, or I'm faulty (Probably the latter) but it's not happening. It's dead. And it was such a lovely thing.

[mogogear]

Ok, So walk us through this.
It gets Hot?

If you actually crack the fill cap open while its hot, it seeps steam?

If you open steamer knob you get steam out of the tip?

You pull handle up and you get nothing? No steam , or water out of the dispersion screen?

Either you dispersion screen is completely blocked. If it is blocked then no water can enter chamber because there is no where for the air to be displaced to.

Or you tube running into the group head is blocked.

a simple way to get the group a little -un-gunked- Take the group back off, turn upside down, if you have any Caffiza, denatured alcohol, something that can soak into the screen, piston, seals etc and slowly dissolve some of the coffee oils that are clogging the holes maybe you can get the flow open enough to allow even the slightest water flow. That in turn could help get the clog on its way to being removed. I say denatured alcohol only because it is a solvent and it evaporates very well. It also is kind to seals. Let the group sit overnight in a big plastic tupperware bowl or something and cover. See if you get the flow started again after reassembling. Then finally you may be able to fully disassemble and clean.

Would I be wrong in thinking you prefer to use a French Roast/ oilier type roast?? They can really put a varnish inside the piston bore!!

I could be on the wrong tilt, so hopefully someone else will give an alternate view.

[hbuchtel]

Gatewood, can you post photos?

Henry

[Gatewood]

Well, you're not too far off on the roast. I roast my own, and like a fairly dark, not necessarily oily roast. Sometimes small spots of oil on the bean. Rarely, but sometimes, oilier. But really, rarely.
It gets hot. I get steam, and if I release the cap while it's hot, I have to jump back. The steam wand doesn't seem quite as fierce in output as before, but still pretty good.
I broke this thing. I've spent the night worrying it over. I thought the screen was probably gunked up, since I wasn't getting much water out, and my last espresso was only 1/4 ounce. I tried to undo everything and get the screen out from above so that I wouldn't mess up the gasket. Instead, I broke it royally. Seems that mine isn't exactly like the one I was going by. I took the group off, took the spring clips off, and (here's where I broke it) tried to undo the nut on the piston. I should have gotten to the nut first, but there's this brass ball on top of the nut that looked as if it was part of the nut. I put all my puny muscle on that nut and the piston came up a bit from the shaft. At that point, I knew it was wrong, so re-attached the handle and spring clips, screwed the nut and piston back in place and started over. The damage was done, but I didn't know it. I got the ball thing off, the nut off, and the spring clips off again, removed the handle and tried to get the piston down to push against the screen. It wouldn't move. I tapped gently. I tapped harder. I got a towel, put it on top of the piston and knocked it harder and harder. Didn't move. I reassembled the whole thing, found that the lever worked up and down OK. But now no water comes out.

I've undone it again, run water into the shower head from upside down, worked the lever, and the water runs up into the group. I can shoot water all over the kitchen out the rubber tube by working the lever. I can get air out the shower head when the machine is off. The lever arm stays up when the machine is cool. It won't stay up when it's hot, but even pumping doesn't get water. One last thing I did: I did run a pipe cleaner up into the tube to see if gunk was up there, and got no gunk out.

See? I destroyed it.

Henry, just saw your post. I'll try to get photos in a bit. Right now it's normal looking, all put back together. My husband is still asleep and I can't do photos until he wakes up (it's 6:25 AM here; ruining my Pavoni kept me awake), but I'll disassemble again, if you like, and take photos. There's really nothing to see, though. The damage is in there with the piston.

[happytamper]

Hi Gatewood,

Sorry to hear about your machine. Sounds like the small brass tube from the group to the boiler is broken or cracked. Lucky it is not the heating element. I am sure over the next couple of days we will all figure it out and it sounds like a good morning to visit your favorite coffee shop. Pavonis are pretty indestructible so it is most likely not a lost cause.

You may have unscrewed the rod from the piston head. remove the nuts (round one first) again and the lever handle and push or knock on the rod until the screen comes out and the whole piston head and rod will come out after it. you won't mess up the gaskets and it can go back in place after you rescrew the rod onto the shaft if this turns out to be the problem.

[bcquinn1]

Hey Gatewood -

First off, try not to worry... La Pavonis are some of the easiest machines in the world to fix, because everything in the machine - except for the heating element and pressurestat (if you have a Millenium machine or newer) - is mechanical in operation, and quite simply mechanical at that. And given the issues you're describing, it seems unlikely that the problem lies with the heating element or the pressurestat.

As happytamper wrote, Pavonis really are pretty indestructible. And the vast majority of replacement parts are relatively cheap. I would recommend taking off the group head assembly (by unscrewing the two metric bolts on the front of the machine). That will give you an immediate look at the brass tube that siphons water from the boiler - if that is cracked, that's likely the issue.

Beyond that, disassemble the group head again, and take some pictures. There's lots of good online guides to assist you - "Refeathering the Chrome Peacock," which you've found, is a good one. Do a search on this forum for replacing La Pavoni gaskets, and you'll probably find some other helpful guides. Don't worry about killing the gaskets while you're doing this - I would recommend replacing them while you're at it. And replacing the gaskets is a great way to get familiar with your machine.

It is possible you blew one or both of the piston head gaskets, which would create a faulty seal in the group head - which could cause the problems you're experiencing. It is also possible that you damaged either the piston rod, or the piston head. Some of the La Pavonis were built with a plastic piston rod assembly, which is susceptible to damage.

The good news? A complete new gasket set costs something like $25. If you've managed to damage the piston rod, or piston head? I think replacement parts are in the neighborhood of $50. All is not lost! But pictures would help the rest of the group figure out what's going on.

Don't worry!

BQ

[Gatewood]

OK, I'm going back in. I'll bet I just do more damage. But I'll report back after operations begin. And I'll take some pictures. I don't think the pictures will show anything. I think the trouble is underneath. But this time, taking Ken's advice, I'm going into the screen from the bottom. I can't get there through the top, as the piston won't come out. So, I'll booger up the o-ring and gaskets, probably, and will order new ones to have on hand. I don't think the tube is cracked, but if it is, I won't mess up the gaskets. That would be a simple solution. One thing I've considered: it acts like the handle is upside down. I know it's on there correctly. Both from my careful observation and from the "refeathering" article. But I might try to reverse it just to see if maybe mine is an upside down one anyhow. Don't know if I'll do that; it's just one of the things I considered as I tossed all night long, worrying.

[kbuzbee]

Gatewood, it still sounds as Mogogear suggests, that that the screen or the tube is blocked. I think a more thorough disassembly and cleaning is in order. Perhaps the tube is cracked.... That would cause this as well but I would only look there after I was sure all the other areas were clean... to get the piston out, rather than tapping it with a hammer, I would suggest placing something heavy on the shaft (do you have a cast iron skillet?). Perhaps the addition of your pushing to that weight would git'r done?? I doubt you've done any serious damage. As stated, LaPas are pretty durable... I would set your first priority as getting that screen off.

Ken

[Gatewood]

OK, I have an iron frying pan. I'll give it a go. If I can't do anything else, I'm going in through the bottom. But I'm willing to try anything else first. Took some photos. Don't think they will help. Lemme figure out how to post them.



And this is the tube; I don't like the way it looks at the joining to the group. Is this normal?





OK, something isn't working. What on earth am I doing wrong?

Image posting isn't working for me (I followed the step-by-steps), and the frying pan plus my weight and my husband's (6'4", 200 lbs) does nothing. Should I go up through the bottom?

[HB]

Image posting isn't working for me...

I fixed them for you. The site was missing from the [img] tag. Below is a valid example:

Table:

[img]http://www.home-barista.com/forums/userpix/837_IMG_0255_1.jpg[/img]

(The upload image dialog should automatically insert this string into your post).

[Gatewood]

Thanks, Dan. Since it doesn't do it automatically, I'll remember to do it.

[kbuzbee]

It is possible you blew one or both of the piston head gaskets, which would create a faulty seal in the group head - which could cause the problems you're experiencing. It is also possible that you damaged either the piston rod, or the piston head. Some of the La Pavonis were built with a plastic piston rod assembly, which is susceptible to damage.

True observations but I doubt it... Water would still flow into the groupshead even if the gaskets and piston were missing.....

Gatewood, try going in from the bottom. That won't be easy. I've ALWAYS pushed it out with the piston.... Offer STILL stands.

Ken

[Gatewood]

I've tried going in through the bottom. I can't seem to get there. Shall I just go ahead and destroy the o-ring? The thing isn't working anyhow... Unless I cut the o-ring, I can't seem to get a grip on it, even with a crochet needle. (sometimes female type tools are the best. )

Edit: OK, here's the deal on the piston. There's a super strong guy who helps us around the house and yard (we're old, remember?) and I just had him lean on the frying pan to try to push down the piston. And it didn't budge. It lifts fine with the lever arm. I'm thinking maybe I got some little metal crumbs or something under there that have wedged it at that point and it can't go lower. If Pete (super strong Pete) can't do it, it simply cannot be done. I'm weak, Stan's old, too, but Pete is young, strong, and healthy, and that piston isn't moving. Wonder if a whole brass group with attached water tube can be purchased? My handle is fine, and even my poor mauled spring clips and pins are OK. But something is screwy inside that pretty brass shell.

[j7on]

I had a similar problem not getting the screen off with the "tapping"(or beating the h*ll out of it with a hammer) method, i got the screen off by prying on the screen itself with a flat screwdriver, i did not need to break the o-ring and even though i pried for like 15-20 minutes there were no MAJOR scratches on the screen afterwards(no, i did not warp the screen either).

But, if you can get air through the screen it would be likely to get water through it too?

Did you unscrew the tube(its threaded) before you messed around with the pipecleaner?
You might have just pushed "it"(whatever could be up there) further in.

[Gatewood]

I had a similar problem not getting the screen off with the "tapping"(or beating the h*ll out of it with a hammer) method, i got the screen off by prying on the screen itself with a flat screwdriver, i did not need to break the o-ring and even though i pried for like 15-20 minutes there were no MAJOR scratches on the screen afterwards(no, i did not warp the screen either).

But, if you can get air through the screen it would be likely to get water through it too?

Did you unscrew the tube(its threaded) before you messed around with the pipecleaner?
You might have just pushed "it"(whatever could be up there) further in.

I unscrewed the tube later, and the pipecleaner came out clean. Can't find anything inside the tube connection hole with the pipe cleaner, either. Did you pry around the edges of the screen?

[j7on]

Hello Gatewood!


Here is the "schematic" i used when all banging in hell did not help me:

http://pavoni.varnelis.net/repairs.html

I just went around the screen patiently, prying, prying & prying(i did scratch it a little bit but just small scratches on the chrome, i did not get any bumps, dings or dents on it), first it lifted only slightly but after a while i got it moving a bit more and eventually it came off, after that i could remove the piston with my hand!(no force!, remember, i really gave it a beating and it did not move.)


Here is a quote(source: http://www.pavoniexpress.com/sealrepl.html) i intended to use if the prying would not have helped(involves destroying the o-ring):

"..You could take an X-Acto knife and cut the O-ring in the groove that holds the insert screen in place. Making a few cuts around the O-ring will weaken it enough so the insert screen comes out fairly easily. If using a mallet doesn't appeal to you, there is a gentler approach. Turn the Group upside down and grab the gasket with some needle nose pliers. Pull out the gasket, and the insert screen will fall out. Then grab the piston rod and push the piston out of the Group. The gasket will be hard to grasp since it has been compressed by the repeated locking of the coffee filter holder.."

Good luck!

[Gatewood]

I got the screen out; the o-ring is damaged. I will get another. But here's the wild part. My piston doesn't go up far enough to reveal the input hole, even when it's up all the way. So, that's the problem with my not getting water out but a dribble. Whatever water I was getting through there was having to seep through. And I can see no way to remedy this but to send it in to be repaired by somebody. It's a real bummer. Thanks for the schematic; that made me see what's up better.

[mogogear]

I got the screen out; the o-ring is damaged. I will get another. But here's the wild part. My piston doesn't go up far enough to reveal the input hole, even when it's up all the way. So, that's the problem with my not getting water out but a dribble. Whatever water I was getting through there was having to seep through. And I can see no way to remedy this but to send it in to be repaired by somebody. It's a real bummer. Thanks for the schematic; that made me see what's up better.

I think those pistons screw onto the bottom end of the vetical piston shaft??? It could be yours has just unscrewed it self down past the intake port from your boiler. Maybe . So whe nyou raise up, it just doesn't go up far enough. Cross your fingers