My La Pavoni is dead - Page 2

[Gatewood]

OK, my fingers are crossed. Do you think I can manipulate it from the bottom or does it need to go to a machine doctor? do you know which way it threads? If I can twist it clockwise (looking up from the bottom), should it get tighter? I'll try anything. I just got my Super Jolly, and it only has a moka pot and a Brikka to perform for. Sad, sad.

[mogogear]

OK, my fingers are crossed. Do you think I can manipulate it from the bottom or does it need to go to a machine doctor? do you know which way it threads? If I can twist it clockwise (looking up from the bottom), should it get tighter? I'll try anything. I just got my Super Jolly, and it only has a moka pot and a Brikka to perform for. Sad, sad.

Don't know. I would assume looking at the piston( upside down) Turn it Clockwise. You might use rubber gloves to give your fingers more traction. I am sorry , I am not too knowledgeable here. I only had my LP for a short while.
Good luck

[Gatewood]

didn't work. The piston turns freely from above (ran a metal rod through the hole, as it's still disassembled from the lever), but there's no way to hold the other end still so it threads itself. I tried with rubber gloves. I think I'd better send this one off. I might just try to destroy the whole blasted thing to see what's going on in there. I doubt I will, but it would certainly satisfy a certain angry annoyance I feel at the thing. My Super Jolly arrived yesterday, and all I have to use it on is my Brikka.

[HB]

Not being a La Pavoni owner, I'm not visualizing the problem very well. However, if I'm dealing with two metal things that don't want to separate (piston / cylinder, nut / bolt, etc), applying heat to the outer piece and ice to the inner one is my first choice before reaching for the hammer. The outer piece expands, the inner piece contracts, hopefully enough to get them apart.

[Gatewood]

I'll give it a try. The outer piece (rod into the piston) is metal and the inner piece is plastic, however. I'll try anything. No hammer yet, but I'm not happy. It's not good to make me unhappy. Might mean a hammer.

[kbuzbee]

however. I'll try anything.

No, you won't.......

Ken

[Gatewood]

No, you won't.......

Ken

Well, anything that won't put somebody else out. Although I'm getting closer to that.

[kbuzbee]

I think it would be the fastest route..... Seriously...

Did you order a new retaining gasket yet???

Ken

[bcquinn1]

Hey Gatewood -

So you've gotten the screen off, and you still can't push the piston all the way out (i.e., pushing down on the piston rod so the whole thing comes down, out of the group head)? That's really unusual - especially since you say that you can rotate the piston freely. Honestly, if you can, there's nothing holding the piston in the group head except friction between the group head and the gasket seals on the pistons.

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, you've gotten the dispersion screen off, so as you look up into the group head from below the machine, you're looking at the bottom of the piston. Looking down at the group head, you've taken the lever off, and so all you see is the piston rod sticking up out of the group. Is that right? Photos are always helpful...

Couple of questions:

1) You wrote, "The outer piece (rod into the piston) is metal and the inner piece is plastic..." Is the piston itself (the larger piece filling the group cylinder, as you look up into the group from below the machine) brass, or are you saying that's plastic? If it is plastic, I would order a newer brass piston head, and new piston seals, while you're at it.

2) If that isn't plastic, is there a thin "sleeve" surrounding the piston head that is plastic? If so, that is the new sleeve that's part of the millenium series, and I would recommend treading softly around it. When I replaced all the seals in my machine, I found a crack in that, and needed to replace it as well... getting it out is a real pain. So if you can avoid damaging that, I would.

3) If there is a sleeve as I described above, is that rotating when you turn the piston rod? If so, then the piston rod and the sleeve are rotating together, and they shouldn't. That sleeve is threaded, and it screws up into the group head. Looking at it from below, I think if you rotate it counter-clockwise, then it will come out. I would back it out (which should also remove the piston assembly as well), separate the sleeve from the piston assembly, and inspect both. This is a very unlikely scenario, though.

As others have said, the most likely issue is that your piston head has become unscrewed from the piston rod - if you're finding that even when the lever is pulled all the way up, the piston head obscures the water inlet. Earlier you wrote, "here's where I broke it - tried to undo the nut on the piston. I should have gotten to the nut first, but there's this brass ball on top of the nut that looked as if it was part of the nut. I put all my puny muscle on that nut and the piston came up a bit from the shaft..." so maybe you unscrewed it yourself. However, if you have a plastic sleeve in the group head as described in 2) above, you should know that the inlet hole is very small - and it may not even be lined up with where the inlet tube reaches the group head. Just want to make sure the inlet hole really is obscured. Again, pictures help...

If that's the case, you really need to get that piston head and rod out of the group head to tighten it back up. While you're at it, I would take a look at the piston gaskets, and make sure they're in good shape. Clean everything thoroughly.

So... I wouldn't be that afraid of using a hammer - gently. If you have a plastic mallet, great. If not, I'd put something soft on top of the piston rod (e.g., sponge, folded cloth, etc.) and tap the rod with increasing force until it comes out. The sticking point will be the first piston gasket - once you can see that, the rest should come out easily.

Or, send it in if that makes you more comfortable. But honestly, these things really are pretty simple to repair.

BQ

[Gatewood]

I will definitely take some pictures in just a bit. The plastic sleeve is there, but it's not so thin. It's about 1/16" thick. No sign of the water hole. I've managed (by reversing the lever so that it raises and lowers from the boiler side) to get the piston down as far as I can. It's farther than I could get it by using the piston on the correct side. That's a start, anyhow. The plastic thing that shows isn't a brass piston, but some sort of whitish stuff. I'm guessing plastic, but don't know for sure. It's definitely not brass.

I have an errand to run; I'll try the rubber hammer again when I come back. Stay tuned!

OK, posting photos:

Piston outside all the way




OK, I give up: I got this right off the one Dan fixed. Doesn't work for me, and won't let me upload another. *$#^$#!!*

(Self-censored)

Here's another: the piston is up all the way, showing no water hole. (water intake on bottom)



You have to click on them; sorry

[cannonfodder]

I exercise the all mighty moderator power and command you to show photos!!

Hay, it worked

[Gatewood]

thanks! Dern, Cannonfodder, how come it worked with the url thing for Dan before and not for me this time? I see you used "img" instead of "url" to fix it. I copied Dan's to my text program and studied it, every little letter and space, to compare it to mine. Sheesh! I'll copy yours to my textedit, and see if I can do it right next time.

[mogogear]

thanks! Dern, Cannonfodder, how come it worked with the url thing for Dan before and not for me this time? I see you used "img" instead of "url" to fix it. I copied Dan's to my text program and studied it, every little letter and space, to compare it to mine. Sheesh! I'll copy yours to my textedit, and see if I can do it right next time.

By jove you have it- If you want to show a picture- click IMG before and after each url that you copy / paste, if you just want to have a link to the picture you click URl before / after you paste the url in to place. You are almost there,,... now your La Pavoni is a story not done yet

[srobinson]

I'll move my comments over to this thread. You have a much newer machine than mine. A good schematic of what you are dealing with his this:

http://www.lapavoni.com/new/esploso.asp?lang=eng#

Click on exploded group 2 picture.

To be honest with you I have not played with one of these newer machines. This sleeve was added to help manage the overheating so it may behave a bit differently than the prior machine. We need someone to voice in that has Millinium or newer machine. It is very hard from the diagram to see, but that nylon sleeve may screw in...note the ribs in the picture. We need a new machine owner to voice in.

[Walter]

We need someone to voice in that has Millinium or newer machine. It is very hard from the diagram to see, but that nylon sleeve may screw in...note the ribs in the picture. We need a new machine owner to voice in.

I don't know if this is pertinent for the current discussion, but anyway...

I have a 2003 Professional and have had the same problem - no or almost no water entering the grouphead - a few times already. Since the machine had been gathering dust in a shop - or maybe a basement - for about 2 years before I bought it, the piston gaskets were in poor condition and after a few weeks of intense use they began to leak. Also when the lever was all the way up, there was less and less water entering the group until - at last - it was only dripping slowly.

Thus I got me a set of new gaskets and decided to disassemble my Pavoni according to your instructions in the "Refeathering..." thread. Everything worked fine, the new gaskets were sealing the grouphead perfectly, the water was gushing out when the lever was up and all was well ... for about a week or two that is. Then I got again less and less water with the lever up. Disassembling, cleaning and reassembling did help, but again not for long. Eventually I decided to try assembling it with the lever upside down and in that position it has been working well for me during the past two months.

I'm not sure this will work for others as well but it appears it did the trick for me...

P.S.: Having read the other thread meanwhile I'd like to note that my piston was screwed on tightly on the shaft all the time...

[kbuzbee]

Walter, that is so weird that worked for you. Flipping the handle upside down you effectively reduced how high the piston can be raised. If anything, I would expect that to limit the water intake more. Glad it worked for you though. Just another quirk of the Pavoni I guess. Seems no matter what the issue is, there is someone who has managed to find a way (usually through trial and error) to solve it. I often raise an eyebrow at some of these solutions (and fully expect there are those out there who view my journey with a "What are you thinking?" look on their face) Oh well, if it works for you.....

Ken

[Gatewood]

First, I've tried the lever upside down thing, hoping it would help, but it didn't. Second, thanks for the schematic; it seems to be exactly what I need. There's one issue. The piston in the schematic is brass; mine is not. It's a strange kind of plastic looking stuff. I'm not sure if that matters. It's a bit early here; I'm still on my second Brikka, so haven't done more than scowl at it this morning. I just picked up Ken's message off the other post. OK, my pistons are plastic; should I replace them with brass? It doesn't seem to be pitted or anything. And I can't get the sleeve to turn. I have rubber hammered the thing so that the piston is partially sticking out (I can see the first rubber gasket), but the shaft of the piston is flush with the top of the group head now, so the rubber mallet won't do any more. I'll try to find something to put on the shaft so that I can press it more. I still can't get the piston out.

Secondly, and this is totally inconsequential, although maddening to me, I used "url" in the image thing because I clicked edit on my first one that Dan fixed, and that's what he did. You mods have some strange magic image power.

[kbuzbee]

Secondly, and this is totally inconsequential, although maddening to me, I used "url" in the image thing because I clicked edit on my first one that Dan fixed, and that's what he did. You mods have some strange magic image power.

That's why they are the forum gods..... and thank goodness for that!

As to your piston, I would not replace it with a brass one unless I found some defiency with the plastic (which I, personally, have not) Brass "seems" better, but is it?? Dunno!

ken

[bcquinn1]

Hey Gatewood -

Sorry to take a while in responding. Okay, looking at your pictures, you do have a Millenium machine - the same one I have, and I've replaced all of the gaskets on it, so I'm pretty familiar with it.

As to your question about replacing the plastic piston with brass - I would recommend it. That plastic piston is made out a thermoplastic, the same material that forms the "sleeve" you can see in the group head. La Pavoni switched to that thermoplastic material for the piston heads for a time - and then switched back to brass. So, kbuzzbee, I believe La Pavoni thinks brass is better, at least.

It may not be that big a deal - but the thermoplastic is less durable. And eventually, heat does break down that material - as I mentioned, I needed to replace the thermoplastic sleeve in my machine, and the material was surprisingly brittle (had used my machine daily for about 3 years). That's one of the reasons why La Pavoni stresses in the Millenium manuals to not leave the machine on unnecessarily - heat does wear down that group sleeve. Also, some folks have reported that the plastic piston unscrews itself more easily from the piston rod than the brass one - perhaps the two different materials has something to do with it.

In any event, I'd recommend replacing it with the brass just while you're at it - you're taking the whole machine apart, so if you can swing the replacement cost for the piston head, I'd do it. That's also why I'm advocating a complete seal replacement. The kit costs something like $20. While you've gone through all the trouble to take your machine apart, and suffer that terrible downtime, make good use of it, and replace the seals to rule out any gasket-related issues.

To get the piston all the way out, try taking a screwdriver, and putting some soft barrier between it and the piston rod (i.e., tape some folded cloth to it, etc.), and use that to keep tapping down on the piston rod, until you've gotten that piston and rod out. It will come out! And again, once you're past that first seal, the rest should come fairly easily. The reason the first seal is tough has to do with how the piston gaskets are seated - there's an "edge" on the first seal that you need to get out of the group head.

Then, take some more pictures, and we'll go from there. It would be great to get a picture of the inlet hole, just to see where that is, if it is blocked, etc.. Again, on the milleniums, it is a fairly small hole in that plastic sleeve, and it can be anywhere - not necessarily lined up with that copper inlet tube.

BQ

[cannonfodder]

My machine is the exact same. When I get home today I will pull it apart and take some photos just so you have a reference of how it should look/work. I have taken my piston out once to clean the dispersion screen and piston bottem. It pushed out with little effort. The hardest part was readjusting the stop screw on the shaft so my piston travel was correct.

The piston gaskets both have a taper, the lower slopes up the upper slopes down forming a..
V
^
shape. Taking it out is usually easy, getting it back in is a little more difficult. You have to squeeze the top gasket in flush or gently work around it to get the top lip in the piston sleeve, then it just slides in.

You can also use the new HB native image upload, that little button above the message box marked "upload image". Here are Dans image posting instructions.

Hope that helps.