Multiple Shot Methods on Quickmill Anita

[pgreilich]

What are some good multiple shot techniques on QM Anita when making espresso for friends. Most of what I have read deals with one shot methods starting with full idle temps of 212-214. In multiple shot scenarios, you need to clean the PF, pull shots, steam milk potentially, etc. All that cools the water and ultimately the GH.

Thanks,
Paul

[cajun_brew]

I'll do a quick flush with the blind basket, just enough to get the gunk off the screen, then I try to wait about 3 min's before I start grinding for the next shot. If not the temp seems to plummet very fast around the middle to end of the shot and this can be seen easily if you have one of Eric's thermometers. The flush will be very quick....2 or 3 oz only if using the flush and go tech.

[pgreilich]

I do have a thermometer on the GH. I assume you mean a quick flush before the first shot. Do you flush between each shot? What is a the "blind" shot? Is this the blank screen I use to backwash the unit? I've also been thinking of pushing up the boiler temp. Since I have a thermometer, it should not be a problem.

I would rather use the flush and go technique anyway to avoid the wait time on Eric's other technique of flush to 185 and recover to 198. But it seems Anita does not naturally recover that fast.

Thanks

[HB]

I would rather use the flush and go technique anyway to avoid the wait time on Eric's other technique of flush to 185 and recover to 198. But it seems Anita does not naturally recover that fast.

The fastest prosumer HX espresso machines require one minute between shots. IIRC, the Quickmills are in the 1-1/2 minute+ range between extractions for optimal temperature stability. Otherwise if your pace is less than one every three minutes, I recommend Bob Yellin's keep-it-simple rules (excerpted from Buyer's Guide to the Vetrano):

1. If the machine has been idle for awhile, flush 6 ounces
2. Or, if the machine has been idle around three minutes, flush 2 ounces
3. Wait 30 seconds and start the extraction.

[cajun_brew]

The blind basket used for back flushing is great for cleaning off the screen just don't flush too much or it will drastically drop your temp and you will have to wait longer to get the machine up to temp for the next shot.

Flushing amount for a warmed up machine (GH 212-214F) will be MUCH longer than shots pulled within a few mins of one another. The first shot from a "hot" machine will have very little temp drop off at the end compared to shots pulled one right after another. I can get a pretty flat temp profile on the first shot but 2nd and 3rd shots need to have more of a hump profile with temps high at the beginning of the shot and falling to where I want them in the middle of the shot.

hope this helps.....keep playing with different flushing tech it will get easier to nail the profile and temp you want the more you play with it.

[erics]

Paul -

If one is to pull multiple shots on Anita or any other machine for that matter, you really should have multiple baskets and you should have those springs out of the PF. While some may think this a little crazy , I have eight identical LM ridgeless baskets and I'm the only drinker in the house - although I did do two lattes for the "girls" yesterday.

Bump your pstat up 0.10 bar, MAYBE 0.15 bar -this will get Anita a little excited. Grind, dose, and tamp your baskets and put a small piece of plastic wrap over each one. Do the long flush through the empty PF to 185-187 and start the first shot as you might normally do. Immediately at the conclusion of the shot, do a 1 to 2 second screen flush. What you should notice is that at the end of this first shot, the grouphead temp should slowly go down several degrees (194-195) because you have "exchanged" about half the water in the hx and thermosyphon flow from the group is heating the hx water in addition to the heat input from the surrounding boiler water and steam.

Pull the second shot about 0.5 degrees lower than you normally would. Because of the higher pstat setting, this shot's temp should be just about right on the money.

[IMAWriter]

I'll do a quick flush with the blind basket, just enough to get the gunk off the screen, then I try to wait about 3 min's before I start grinding for the next shot. If not the temp seems to plummet very fast around the middle to end of the shot and this can be seen easily if you have one of Eric's thermometers. The flush will be very quick....2 or 3 oz only if using the flush and go tech.

This is slightly OT, but between shots, instead of flushing water thru the group to clean the group head or PF basket, use your hot water wand....between shots, I just wipe the group head clean with a bit of hot water drawn thru the water wand. There is no need to flush water through the head for cleaning between shots, unless to cool down the group. Cleaning and back flushing should be down at the conclusion of your session.I have Eric's fine thermometer unit installed. That's where I first noticed the steep drop in temp from the start of the pull to the end....so I start my shot immediately after the red light goes out.

[TimEggers]

I tend to updose so a quick flush and wipe with a towel is vital for getting grounds off the shower screen after each shot I pull. YMMV. I don't see any drastic affect on subsequent shots. I run my Anita a little hot (idles at 217F) so she rebounds very fast especially if I stop shot pulling to steam some milk.

[IMAWriter]

I tend to updose so a quick flush and wipe with a towel is vital for getting grounds off the shower screen after each shot I pull. YMMV. I don't see any drastic affect on subsequent shots. I run my Anita a little hot (idles at 217F) so she rebounds very fast especially if I stop shot pulling to steam some milk.

A little hot?...lol

[cannonfodder]

A little hot?...lol

For magma...

[pgreilich]

Thanks guys. You've been great and provided a lot of information for me. I did push up the pstat for shorter recovery and will incorporate the water wand clean routine. A few old grinds should not affect the subsequent shots that much. With a pushed up boiler temp, recover is faster which enables me to pull mutilple shots more quickly in that situation or perform a credable flush and go technique.

Flush and go this morning with average pstat at 1.25 (that means it cycles up to 1.45 and down to 1.1) was pulled at 204.5 GH temp. I flushed to 206 from 214 idle, it dropped to 204.5 after 30 seconds, I pulled the shot, it rose to 116 and then quickly down 210, then in diminishing decelleration to 200, finishing at 198. The shot was drinkable but probably had a little too much hot flash on it.

I figure that is why Eric S. recomends the flush the GH down to target temp and let HX come back up, knowing that while HX water is volatile in terms of temp, GH temp is much more stable. Basically, resulting in more consistent shot temps time over time. Even so, I looking for those combos that let me pull shots fast whether I'm alone or with a group on Anita. I guess its ashame that even the espresso world is plage with knuckleheads like me who want there boutique items fast as well as good. What ever happened to the good old days........ when everything just took a long time.....even espresso.

Lessons learned also include things like shots pulled at varying temps are not necessarily bad, unless pulled at extremely low or high temps, just different; extracting different qualities from the coffee. Whether a little punchy or mellow, my shots are all drinkable as decent espresso shots.

[IMAWriter]

Thanks guys. You've been great and provided a lot of information for me. I did push up the pstat for shorter recovery and will incorporate the water wand clean routine. A few old grinds should not affect the subsequent shots that much. With a pushed up boiler temp, recover is faster which enables me to pull mutilple shots more quickly in that situation or perform a credable flush and go technique.

Flush and go this morning with average pstat at 1.25 (that means it cycles up to 1.45 and down to 1.1) was pulled at 204.5 GH temp. I flushed to 206 from 214 idle, it dropped to 204.5 after 30 seconds, I pulled the shot, it rose to 116 and then quickly down 210, then in diminishing decelleration to 200, finishing at 198. The shot was drinkable but probably had a little too much hot flash on it.

I figure that is why Eric S. recomends the flush the GH down to target temp and let HX come back up, knowing that while HX water is volatile in terms of temp, GH temp is much more stable. Basically, resulting in more consistent shot temps time over time. Even so, I looking for those combos that let me pull shots fast whether I'm alone or with a group on Anita. I guess its ashame that even the espresso world is plage with knuckleheads like me who want there boutique items fast as well as good. What ever happened to the good old days........ when everything just took a long time.....even espresso.

Lessons learned also include things like shots pulled at varying temps are not necessarily bad, unless pulled at extremely low or high temps, just different; extracting different qualities from the coffee. Whether a little punchy or mellow, my shots are all drinkable as decent espresso shots.

Over time (as good as you're doing, it won't be terribly long) you'll get a great feel for Anita....
One last thing....don't overlook the benefit of observing the "water-dance"....if you don't know what that is, you can Google it as "water dance HX machine' or some such...or a member here with more internet saavy then me (just about anyone) can post a link.

[TimEggers]

A little hot?...lol

For magma...

On my Anita 1.3 bar (top of band) makes the thermometer attachment read 216.5F to 217F after a long idle time. It may just be the way I have the attachment installed or a whole list of other thermometry variables. I tend to take the numbers with a grain of salt and use them strictly for a point of reference (they do seem very repeatable). My 217F may be another person's 215F or 216F. I adjusted to get the rebound time I wanted. Oddly even at 217F my flush volume when idle is 8-ounces, the same it was with an idle temp of 214F. Rebound is much better (or I should say the way I want it) at 217F though .

[IMAWriter]

On my Anita 1.3 bar (top of band) makes the thermometer attachment read 216.5F to 217F after a long idle time. It may just be the way I have the attachment installed or a whole list of other thermometry variables. I tend to take the numbers with a grain of salt and use them strictly for a point of reference (they do seem very repeatable). My 217F may be another person's 215F or 216F. I adjusted to get the rebound time I wanted. Oddly even at 217F my flush volume when idle is 8-ounces, the same it was with an idle temp of 214F. Rebound is much better (or I should say the way I want it) at 217F though .

Joking aside....my thermometer (Eric's) READS 211.5 after 2 hours on, but when I perform the cooling flush, the temperature does indeed rise to a reading of 216-217!...considering the water in the boiler is super hot (230?), and the HX not too far behind, this makes sense....I guess....
My 1st shot of the day cooling flush to 197f is easily 7-8 oz. I quickly grind, distro/tamp within 35 seconds...my cycle time with the MATER stat (had to replace the CEME after 3.5 years) lock in, wait for th red light to go off and pull...temp rises to about 206, the by the time the drips start, it reads 203-204 and holds there for about 10 seconds, then drops...after 25 seconds, it's at 198...not bad....as long as the first 10 seconds of my shot aren't black ooze, I know I'm not too hot...ever since I've installed Eric's thermometer assembly(purchased at Chris Coffee), I've had nary a black ring around my cup....proving that before installing I was probably not flushing quite enough water...or waiting too long to lock in and pull...
The water dance seems a bit hard for me to suss out on Anita.

[cannonfodder]

A large spike at the beginning of the flush is normal as the super heated heat exchanger water flushes out the group, but that 217 just sounds high. I believe my Isomac use to run around 210 on the grouphead after an extended idol time. I ran that machine at around 1.1 bar. There is nothing really wrong with that, it just takes a longer cooling flush. Thermosiphon restrictors cut down on the overheated group but you still have to flush out the super heated heat exchanger.

[IMAWriter]

A large spike at the beginning of the flush is normal as the super heated heat exchanger water flushes out the group, but that 217 just sounds high. I believe my Isomac use to run around 210 on the grouphead after an extended idol time. I ran that machine at around 1.1 bar. There is nothing really wrong with that, it just takes a longer cooling flush. Thermosiphon restrictors cut down on the overheated group but you still have to flush out the super heated heat exchanger.

It will read that hi if I've had Anita on for 2-3 hours, THEN do the flush....after the first shot, even an hour later, I usually get around 213-214 spike

[TimEggers]

My idle cooling flush spike is about 218F (nearly identical to my group readout) but after the flush and rebound my in shot spike is only about 210 then drops down to 196F by the end of the shot. To be honest (and maybe to my detriment) I've not worried too much about the in shot readings. I flush to 190F then the read out rebounds to about 203F while I wait a minute the group will stabilize at 199F. Lock load and pull. The espresso is great and Anita is ready again in no time. From idle to shot making is about one minute and forty-five seconds. I expected a longer cooling flush when going hotter, I just didn't see that much of a difference (maybe half an ounce). In my book that's not enough to worry about. My preference is a machine that rebounds quite fast I'm not concerned with flushing amounts or water usage a point of view that many do not share.

Perhaps a lower pstat setting will increase intrashot stability? Isn't that what Ken found?

[IMAWriter]

Tim...my stat is set around 1.1.75 ish....it will rise to just under 1.3 at the max, then down to 1.1
I haven't been flushing down to 190...I'm going to around 197f...which is where I thought Eric had suggested...I may try lowering a bit more...but the 'spresso taste great...no bitterness, no dark ring...

[erics]

Here is a typical FLUSH ONLY curve from Anita taken some weeks ago. The interesting part here is that I also show the changes in temperature that the water undergoes as it enters the group via the upper and lower thermosyphon lines during the flush and afterwards.

Just prior to the flush, while the thermosyphon is active, the grouphead temp is 212, the inlet to the group is 227+, and the group outlet is 217+. As can be seen from the blue grouphead temp curve, I stopped the flush at my usual ~185.
As far as I'm concerned, you need to flush to a temperature AROUND 185 so that the grouphead temperature will DIP BELOW that temperature at which you want to initiate the shot. FOR EXAMPLE, say you wanted a nominal 200 F shot - then initiate the shot at 197.5 to 198.0 and you'll get your wish. This is NOT to say that other methods will not produce the same results NOR am I saying that other methods will not produce a "better" shot. But I will say that this method produces an easily duplicatable shot AND really shines when you are making multiple drinks.

[IMAWriter]

Here is a typical FLUSH ONLY curve from Anita taken some weeks ago. The interesting part here is that I also show the changes in temperature that the water undergoes as it enters the group via the upper and lower thermosyphon lines during the flush and afterwards.
<image>
Just prior to the flush, while the thermosyphon is active, the grouphead temp is 212, the inlet to the group is 227+, and the group outlet is 217+. As can be seen from the blue grouphead temp curve, I stopped the flush at my usual ~185.
As far as I'm concerned, you need to flush to a temperature AROUND 185 so that the grouphead temperature will DIP BELOW that temperature at which you want to initiate the shot. FOR EXAMPLE, say you wanted a nominal 200 F shot - then initiate the shot at 197.5 to 198.0 and you'll get your wish. This is NOT to say that other methods will not produce the same results NOR am I saying that other methods will not produce a "better" shot. But I will say that this method produces an easily duplicatable shot AND really shines when you are making multiple drinks.

Wow Eric!...thanks much for this post...I was WAY off here...no wonder I was reading 207-208 upon lifting my group...all things being relative, I will try it your way...still, why would my shots taste so good, if I'm possible 5f off my desired temp?