Multiple Shot Methods on Quickmill Anita - Page 2

[pgreilich]

Different temp averages throughout the time it takes to pull a shot (and the temp does move) only effects the qualities drawn out of the shot. Unless of course, the temp are way high or low.

Finally, higher pstate pressure and boiler temp has added benefits of better steam capability on Anita. And since you can control the brew temps with a temp gauge and flush, why not pump it up!

Paul

[erics]

Rob -

I seem to recall that when I initiate a shot, group temp hits 208 - 209 but the coffee never sees that because the water has another 1 to 2 inches to travel and THAT portion of the grouphead is the coolest so it takes that 208 down real fast.

BTW - and I should have said this before - try Tim's method also - he is pulling his shot in the vicinity of the "bottom of the bathtub curve" which is VERY MUCH akin to Bob Yellin's methodology - see the bench review of the Andreja Premium.

[TimEggers]

An interesting day at my house. I dialed down my Anita's boiler pressure to a very humble .76 bar and she now idles at 205F. A quick 4-ounce flush to about 200F the group will stabilize at 198F after about 1.25 minutes. It rebounds a little (ok a lot) slower but once at temp stays there forever (which makes sense as the group isn't super hot anymore).

Anyways the in shot range is 208F at the top with a finish (on my long 35-40 second) triples of 196.5F or so. The shot character is far different too. I'm sure the shot extraction temperature profile is more flat at these settings. All I'm doing here is what Ken did to his Cimbali's in the past. The shots are now much more balanced and lend themselves towards the sweeter chocolate notes (Sweet Maria's Classic Italian Blend). With the higher pstat method the shots had a more aggressive character with a dark or bittersweet chocolate; balance gave way to punch.

The "right" setting depends on usage. It may sound silly but I think I'm going to leave my pstat here for a while. I don't make more than one extraction in a row (or every hour or so). And since going back to the WDT I've found my pours to be very consistent. Before the WDT my shots didn't always turn out well so I had more need to pull back to back shots looking for the good ones .

The point of the issue is this: if you only need one extraction every 15-20 minutes a lower pstat setting can yield a more flat flavor profile (stable) at the cost of rebound time. A very tasty shot (I can see why the flat or stable profiles are so sought after). I have not tried steaming at this pstat setting myself yet but others on Ken's thread sited no issues other it taking longer (but lets face it the group is going to need more time to rebound anyways so you'll have plenty of time to steam and build those drinks).

On the other hand if your knocking out drinks for a party this low setting may not be good for you. As like I've said on my machine she needs about 20 minutes to be back in ideal brewing conditions. It's a trade off for shot profile quality and rebound time.

Note: I need to experiment with pulling the shot at different start temps. Before with the higher pstat setting I started the extraction at 198F, taste is telling me that with the lower pstat setting this may be a tad cool. I'll report back after more sessions. Remember the above should be taken as my first impressions only.

Edit: I believe my issue was over flushing. With the pstat at .76 bar (idle 204) I need only flush until the readout says 201F then wait and let the group stabilize at 198F. About 1.25 minutes. Another observation is that the hissing of the water dance is all but gone. Not that I need it since I have thermometer attachment. Also over flush a little (and get the group too cool) and it'll be a while before the machine warms back up. But with caution though this hasn't been an issue. With the lower pstat setting the temperatures change in a smooth, slow predictable pace. Nothing like chasing the fire-breathing dragon of before!

Also I'm not doing anything new here. This is what Ken and others have done in the past, I'm just offering my impressions on my application of this approach. In short, try it; you might like it like I do.

[erics]

I agree 100% with all that you said. I'm hoping you were measuring those grouphead idle temps with no PF in the group.

[TimEggers]

Hello Eric,

First thank you for the graphs, I enjoy the data you have shared here and in other posts. I am measuring these temps with my bottomless Rancilio portafilter installed (which I leave loosely set in the group all the time). I don't have a handy dandy thermofilter so I'm kind of flying blind here (so please don't take my "data" as anything hard). I am going more by shot taste and what the thermometer attachment is telling me.

I'm curious though, what changes if any should I make since I am taking temps with the portafilter in the group? Is an idle of 205F too low in this instance? In your opinion and extensive testing what temps (or boiler settings) have you found ideal for the best or most stable shot temp profile? (My apologies if you've covered these points elsewhere, if so kindly offer a link as I'd love to see the information).

And of coarse thanks for putting together such a useful tool as the group thermometer attachment. I love it!

[IMAWriter]

Hello Eric,
[snipped some...lol]
First thank you for the graphs, I enjoy the data you have shared here and in other posts. I am measuring these temps with my bottomless Rancilio portafilter installed (which I leave loosely set in the group all the time). I don't have a handy dandy thermofilter so I'm kind of flying blind here (so please don't take my "data" as anything hard). I am going more by shot taste and what the thermometer attachment is telling me.
And of coarse thanks for putting together such a useful tool as the group thermometer attachment. I love it!

Thanks from me as well....
As i steam maybe once or twice a week...I decided to turn my stat down as well...set at 1.0...peaks at 1.15...
a little more time now from first flush...I now take it to 190...it rebounds up (without PF in, as Eric reminded us) to 201, then in 1.5 minutes it's ready to go at 199...upon raising lever, I get 207-208, and by the time droplets appear ..usually about 7 or 8 seconds into the pull, I'm showing 203 on the thermometer, it holds pretty well till 20 seconds, then drops to 199 at 25 seconds...trhe shot exibited some of what tim said...makes sense, lower brew temp, more mellow, darker tasting shot...as I actually like the top end a bit more, I'm going to actually add 10 seconds of rebound time...if that doesn't work, I'll just raise the state a tiny bit...The MA-Ter is easy to adjust. I'm thinking Eric may be basing some of his reaction times to the original CEME...is this correct, Eric?

[erics]

As I type, I am enjoying the morning's 1st cappy (1 of 4). The grouphead temperature will be DIFFERENT depending upon whether you have a PF in the group and the TYPE of PF. Turning the pstat down to "X" really messed up my morning routine as I'm guessing doing just about anything different alters other enthusiasts routine. It is TOUGH to break old, well-honed, and thus good habits.

I thought the 205 was high and thus that's why I said "I'm hoping you were measuring those grouphead idle temps with no PF in the group." The minute you start adding surface area to the grouphead, grouphead temps will go down. Insert a room temperature PF into a hot grouphead and watch the temperature go down and then eventually come back a few degrees cooler than that with no PF in the grouphead. Hey - that could be a "virtual flush" But, on a more serious note, don't make any changes. I'm 100% convinced that different methods can produce the same results. I was not fully comfortable with knocking the pstat down from ~1.20 to ~0.75. Why? Well, it caused me to alter my routine and you know the story about old dogs and new tricks.

Hey Rob - as a sidenote, you would enjoy this: http://www.grandobsession.com/. I keep the empty PF (single spout) in the group all the time and spoon the grinds into a dry basket that is resting on the scale. I installed a MA-TER pstat in Anita several months ago (original CEME) as I found the MA-TER very easy to adjust (like you) and I tend to play with pstats quite a bit. Finding that tiny slot in the CEME with a jeweler's screwdriver and a baby flashlight is an adventure by itself.

I'm thinking that this thread ( need-hints-on-using-e61-thermocouple-adapter-t5125.html ) talks about the same results using different methods. Note the Vetrano's very slight drop in temp towards the end because he is being fed with, say, 70 F water as compared to Anita being fed with 95 F water from the reservoir - but I also believe one would be pressed to differentiate between these shots.

[TimEggers]

Hi Eric-

You're absolutely correct about the portafilter/no portafilter observation. I've seen that when going from my Rancilio to LM handle. Now that baby will suck the life right out of the group!

On a serious note though this mornings session brought me the lowest in shot swing I've seen yet. Here is what I did:

1.) Group idle at 204F (with portafilter). Flush to 201F with portafilter removed.

2.) Let group readout stabilize at 198F. This takes about 2 minutes in which time I prepare the basket.

3.) Lock and load then pull.

My routine like yours Eric has changed. Before I'd start building the shot then flush. Now the first thing I do when walking up to the espresso counter is flush the machine. Then I load the grinder with beans, grind, dose, brush out chute/doser, WDT, level then tamp. I'm finding Anita stable at 198F before I'm ready. I am still seeing a difference in start temps with this approach as to my old one. I may start using a warmer start temp (per the attachment). So instead of 198F I'm going to try to 199F. I'm thinking I may need this due to the much cooler group (204F idle rather than 217F).

The best part is that I'm seeing the lowest in shot swing so far the readout spikes to 208F then slowly flutters to 198F at the end of even my longish triples. I would suspect a longer extraction (30-40 seconds) to produce a lower end temperature, is this correct thinking?

I am curious though whether using some sort of a pre-shot flush is best or if using Ken's no-flush-needed approach may be better. By better I want to maintain the ability to use any blend without having to adjust the pstat (then my routine ). In other words I'd like to start just a little hotter then I need for any bean blend then do a very small flush. Doesn't the group need some sort of flush just to stabilize with the HX water anyways?

Edit- Something else I've noticed too is that the HX circuit rebounds faster than the group (obviously) but what I mean is that before the group would rebound faster (since it was hotter) so the rate of recovery was closer to that of the HX. Not so with this lower setting. I flushed and let the readout stabilize at 198F but I let it sit there for about 2 minutes. As I pulled the shot the group was still at 198F but the in shot spike was a crisp 210F. The punch of before is back, the sweetness is less and the bitters are up. Still a good shot, just different. Point of the matter is, beware the group is slow to rebound but the HX isn't that much slower. The pstat setting must affect the group's recovery time more so than the HX, which I suppose, makes sense seeing that the HX is in the boiler where as the water in the group is relying on the mass of group. I'll admit I'm learning more about how my Anita processes temperatures with each shot I pull. This is probably nothing new to a lot of folks here, but dang I'm having fun with it and the espresso is superb.

[erics]

I would suspect a longer extraction (30-40 seconds) to produce a lower end temperature, is this correct thinking?

A "normal" extraction for me is around 1.50 to 1.75 ounces in 25 seconds. Continuing my extraction would result in lower temps but yours may be a "wash" due to the lower overall flowrate I'm assuming. A 30 second "triple" would be a yes whereas a 40 second triple might be even temps.

The pstat setting must affect the group's recovery time more so than the HX, . . .

[TimEggers]

Thank you so much Eric for plotting those temps. It's amazing to see them graphed together like that. This discussion has been a big help to me as I work through these temperature trials. I find the more I wrap my mind around this stuff the more it makes sense and I'm even beginning to be able to predict what the shot will taste like based on the readout and the flow rate. Very exciting times indeed thanks again for all the great information.

[TimEggers]

Today I experimented with Ken's no flush approach. I wanted to see what I would get doing this. My Anita when idle at 204F will spike to 212F very briefly before falling to 202F at the end of my 43-second triple.

The shots are simply amazing. Prior to this approach my shots had an aggressive non-favorable note on the high end. That is all but gone. I'm finding balance but to my pleasant surprise not at the expense of complexity. Shots today were a sweet chocolate with a shining caramel body. My crema is also remarkably better tasting and the shots seem to feel softer. The crema color is a golden brown. All in all the shots are amazing. My idea of "good espresso" has gone up considerably after this weekend.

I did try my hand at steaming and blew it (no pun intended) . I overstretched (which didn't leave me enough time to incorporate the foam into the milk); lower pstat means less boiler pressure, which equals slower whirlpools (obviously). Microfoam is very attainable; I just need to allow myself more time to get it into the milk. Read this as my mistake and not a fault of the pstat setting. I'll admit it's been ages since I've steamed but company is coming over this weekend (don't worry I'll only need a couple cappas) and I thought I better get my practice back. Luckily steaming has been for me like riding a bike. (Don't ask about the scars on my knees).

[TimEggers]

I think the shot quality of the lower pstat setting arrangement has spoiled me. Since we were having guests over this weekend (yesterday) I decided I better bump my pstat up a bit (1.1-bar, idle at 207F) so I could produce cappas. Good thing I did too as I needed 6 of them.

Anyways the espresso was ok but just too aggressive. The balance was all but gone with the intensity nearly ruining the shot. They were just fine in milk and my guests add chocolate syrup/caramel syrup anyways but I was unimpressed with the shots straight. It seemed no matter how much I flushed the shots still exhibited the aggressive attributes. I realize that some folks like that aggression, but for this blend (same roasted batch all along) it doesn't seem to help. The caramel flavors seem burnt almost. Forgive me I'm not an accomplished taster.

So this morning I dialed the pstat back down to .75-bar which makes Anita idle at 204F. I did a short flush this morning and let the group stabilize at 197F then pulled the shot. In shot spike was 208.5 with a finish readout of 198F for a normale triple (about 30 seconds). The shot was simply delicious with thick notes of sweet caramel (interestingly not much chocolate, but this shot was a tad cool). The crema was light and very thick (does that make any sense?) and seemed to penetrate most of the shot as I drank it. The body (from the crema) was like silk. Sweet caramel silk. A treat for sure. The shot had no aggressive character yet had full flavors. I seem to savor these shots far more.

I'm going to try my hand at steaming and maybe try out some cappas...

[cannonfodder]

Have you tried a compromise, split the pressurestat settings so you still have acceptable steaming power for a drink or two while retaining a mellower cup from the lower setting? I had one machine that I would run at 0.85 bar. That lowered the flush but I still had plenty of steam power, but that was on a 220v machine.

I have tossed around the idea of dropping a PID on my machine so I can run the boiler at near brew temperatures which would greatly reduce the flush and may change the flavor profile (I have no issue with the current profile but I always like to experiment). You could run the boiler at the lower brew temperature, then when needed bump the setting up for extra steam power. The transition would only take a moment. Since you are only interested in steam power and not thermal stability there would be no need to let the machine sit 15 minutes to stabilize at the new temperature. You could even bump the temperature up while the shot is pulling to minimize the wate time. I use to do this my lever. I would run the boiler at the minimum temperature for brewing then as I pulled the shot bump the temperature up another 10 or so degrees for the extra steam power. It worked quite well but that a very different machine.

[TimEggers]

Yeah I've thought about trying that. Honestly though yesterday was the first time in several months where I needed to steam for multiple drinks (and I won't need to now for a long time either). I bumped the pstat up because I hadn't tried doing back-to-back shots with the lower setting and didn't how well that would work. I really didn't want to be in "experimental" mode either with company waiting for drinks.

I was just surprised at the difference in the shot that I saw even from a little bump from .75-bar to 1.1-bar. Even with extra flushing I was unable to replicate the shot I was getting at .75-bar, which seems odd to me. Again I am fairly new to temperature experimentation so perhaps I just didn't find the correct approach. I'm not advocating that everyone start dropping their pstat as I have, I'm only sharing what I'm finding as I try new things (thinking out loud if you will). I do wonder though how well the principles transfer across different machines.

[TimEggers]

Well I'm still at it . Actually I've bumped my pstat back up to the 1.2-bar range for better steaming performance. Also I've come to learn that I just didn't know how to properly flush my Anita. At the higher idle temperature ranges I can produce and repeat a temperature swing on my e61 thermometer attachment tighter than any I've seen (201F-196.5F for a triple).

My question is does this indicate a more stable intrashot profile? I don't have a thermofilter and was wondering if the readings on the e61 attachment maintained an accurate offset from the temps seen at the puck, or does this change with flush approach?

Before I was seeing a swing of 206F-196F for my triples, now using the flush and go technique (very little waiting) I flush the group down to about 203F then lock and pull. I don't wait for a rebound, its instant. I've found the trick to be to leave the group "too hot" and draw the "cold" water through it. I'm curious if anyone with a thermofilter has tested this extreme flush and go method. Looking strictly at my e61 attachment the readout swing is far less and the espresso is very good. Now not at the sacrifice of steaming.

Thinking about it this all comes as very familiar (water dance flush method). My how I've come full circle...

[cajun_brew]

At the higher idle temperature ranges I can produce and repeat a temperature swing on my e61 thermometer attachment tighter than any I've seen (201F-196.5F for a triple).

My question is does this indicate a more stable intrashot profile? I don't have a thermofilter and was wondering if the readings on the e61 attachment maintained an accurate offset from the temps seen at the puck, or does this change with flush approach?

I don't have a thermofilter but I get the same tighter temp swing using the flush n go tech and my shots have always tasted better this way than with the flush and wait tech and I'd think it has to be from a more flat profile.

The higher the idle temp when I start flushing, the more I have to flush, but the flatter I can get the profile and better it taste to me on almost all coffee.

I try to wait till my idle temp comes up to 195 F or more before I start grinding for the next shot. The longer I wait the flatter I can get profile on the next shot to be and I just seem to like the shots better this way. It means waiting 3 or more mins between shots but I'm no speed barista so it's no biggie I've just worked it into my routine.

[TimEggers]

I don't have a thermofilter but I get the same tighter temp swing using the flush n go tech and my shots have always tasted better this way than with the flush and wait tech and I'd think it has to be from a more flat profile.

The higher the idle temp when I start flushing, the more I have to flush, but the flatter I can get the profile and better it taste to me on almost all coffee.

I try to wait till my idle temp comes up to the 195 F or more before I start grinding for the next shot. The longer I wait the flatter I can get profile on the next shot to be and I just seem to like the shots better this way. It means waiting 3 or more mins between shots but I'm no speed barista so it's no biggie I've just worked it into my routine.

Thanks for the feedback Tim. I'm seeing this myself (to my surprise). I'm back to the flushing when idle but that's never bothered me in the least (I top the tank of each day and dump the drip tray after each session).

Shots this morning were even tighter (203F-201F) . The espresso is very good. I'm taken by surprise with these findings but am glad I've finally figured out a good flushing method ("good": one that suits my tastes). When I first got Anita I was using the water dance approach and was in the ballpark, but now I'm hitting homeruns each time. Eric if your watching your attachment is a God send my friend. Well done.

[WR]

Tim, at what grouphead temp do you detect the end of the water dance (by the sound of the hiss stopping)? I'm going to check the calibration of my thermometer this evening, but i'm getting sour shots with your flush and go method at 203 and a similar boiler setup (.93-1.15). The hiss/gurgle stops for me at 210-210.5. With a flush stop at 203 and a pull 5-10 seconds later my intra shot saw grouphead temps go to 198. I'm going to try flush and go at higher flush stop and see what that does. Just curious where you guys are hearing the hiss stop as that should be the same temp (actual, not necessarily on the thermo) for all of us, no?

[TimEggers]

Tim, at what grouphead temp do you detect the end of the water dance (by the sound of the hiss stopping)? I'm going to check the calibration of my thermometer this evening, but i'm getting sour shots with your flush and go method at 203 and a similar boiler setup (.93-1.15). The hiss/gurgle stops for me at 210-210.5. With a flush stop at 203 and a pull 5-10 seconds later my intra shot saw grouphead temps go to 198. I'm going to try flush and go at higher flush stop and see what that does. Just curious where you guys are hearing the hiss stop as that should be the same temp (actual, not necessarily on the thermo) for all of us, no?

Hi Will,

Like you my hiss tops right around 210F. I would suspect flushing not quite so long would help. I've got my pstat at 1.3-bar range now with an idle group at 217F (very hot) I flush down to 200F lock and pull. The swing is a tight 203F to 201F-201.5F for my triples. In my limited experience the flush and go seems to work better for me at the higher boiler pressure ranges. I also really like the steaming at this setting too; microfoam is almost fool proof for me. Granted I do an 8-ounce or so flush before that first shot, but I'll accept that for the results I'm seeing both in straight espresso and steaming capability.

Also I see you're using a Vetrano; I would suspect your incoming water to be cooler (I believe Eric S. has noted this) and saw that the Vetrano required a slightly different flush technique than the pour over Anita. Our tanks tend to be a little warmer.

[WR]

I also notice that my flash stops at a higher temp (213-214) if the machine is super hot, not sure why... thermometer lag? all subsequent flushes will be at 210.

Yes my inlet water on the Vetrano is totally variable and i'm not sure how much of an effect that is having. If i walk up to the machine in the morning and don't flush out the filter canister by running the filtered water tap the water will be quite warm (80 degrees in winter) because there is a rad under the kitchen counter. My water after i flush everything out though (at the tap) can be as low in NYC as 40 degrees! there's still some water in the 5 feet of hose feeding the Vetrano but after numerous flushes I'm sure that 40 degree water is no warmer than 50 or so. I wonder if those cooler inlet temps with a plumbed machine will definitely require a rebound to allow the HX to heat up the incoming water. Vetrano may just not play well with the flush and go, but it's the first time I've tried it. I'll continue to play, learning a lot, but am still most comfortable and getting the best results in the cup with 1st flush to flash plus 5 seconds or so, wait 2:45 to 3:15, then flush to flash plus 5 seconds, wait 30-45 seconds and pull the shot. I just can't get a drinkable shot with Eric's method yet (flush to 185-188, rebound to 197-198 and pull). Using the thermometer as a guide for my method (i think it's "HX love") is tough because the temps are moving so fast.

Cheers,

Will