Monitoring Brew Temperature - E61 & Silvia - Page 3

[barry]

I agree that it's not that big of a deal and would certainly be more accurate, but having a small digital display attached directly to the group head would certainly be nicer aesthetically, and would make the kitchen look less like a workshop.

if that's what you're after, then get a francis francis.


what's the point of an aesthetically pleasant digital display that is essentially useless? you might as well just put a bunch of flashing lights and displays on your machine so it looks cool.


-barry "kinda harsh; sorry"

[HB]

what's the point of an aesthetically pleasant digital display that is essentially useless?

It would be nice to have a plug-n-play option that doesn't rely on anything more than entry with an M6 screw. I've suggested it several times to mod-minded vendors as a post-factory installation option. No takers yet.

Eric's TC adapter gives valuable information for a relatively low cost - less than $100 complete with a cheap PID used to display the temperature. But it does impact the natural beauty of an E61. How much one is willing to invest in correcting aesthetic issues depends on how much it offends. For example, it wouldn't be exceedingly difficult to mount the PID readout in the case (cutting out the square in the panel is the hard part).

La Valentina has a "cowling" covering the top of the E61 grouphead, so it isn't much of an issue for me. I routed the TC wire out the back of the machine where it plugs into the Fluke 54. I can see it behind the grinder and it doesn't detract from the machine's frontal view.

[barry]

It would be nice to have a plug-n-play option that doesn't rely on anything more than entry with an M6 screw. I've suggested it several times to mod-minded vendors as a post-factory installation option. No takers yet.

i don't have enough experience with the various versions of this group to offer a "fits all" setup, but certainly a screw-in thermowell for a tiny tc isn't a big deal to make, should someone want to provide the details for their particular setup. there are digital displays out there, too, but not inexpensive or particularly small (unfortunately).

[arossphoto]

you might as well just put a bunch of flashing lights and displays on your machine so it looks cool.


-barry "kinda harsh; sorry"

Are you for real? I'm glad you added the apology, because comments like that don't make new members feel very welcome.

I'm also glad Dan offered some real advice that addressed my concerns, without any snide remarks.

Thanks very much Dan, it is much appreciated. These forums have been very helpful and are a great resource.

Cheers,

Andrew

[RapidCoffee]

I agree that it's not that big of a deal and would certainly be more accurate, but having a small digital display attached directly to the group head would certainly be nicer aesthetically, and would make the kitchen look less like a workshop.

I know what you mean. No big deal to hack my used Tagex Mazzer SJ grinder, it already looked like something ridden hard and put up wet. But my still-shiny Vetrano? I'd love to install the thermocouple, but don't want exposed wires exiting the grouphead...

[barry]

Are you for real? I'm glad you added the apology, because comments like that don't make new members feel very welcome.

okay, i'll shut up and let the newbies spend time & money doing things which won't get them what they say they want. doesn't "been there, done that" count for anything anymore?

[HB]

Eric goes to great pains to describe the precise positioning of the probe in the E61 channel. Initially I pushed it as far down as it would go because what I was really after was the (highly reactive) HX output temperature, not the brew temperature. From the prior page:

Medium delay (5-7 minutes). Result: 201.5F

In the end, I settled about midway between Eric's "D" point turn and the bottom of the well. The probe temperature varies by placement, boiler temperature, machine HX design... in other words, you have to tweak the technique a little for each machine. The good news is they behave similarly, so it's a one-time tweaking that you can either do by taste or thermofilter.

So what's my point? That a probe installed through the back of the E61 entering the valve chamber might yield good data:



In this diagram, Eric shows "D" as the position of the turn. I put a probe all the way to the bottom for the Vetrano (it touched the cam lobe) and for La Valentina (no cam lobe, just an empty chamber since it has a solenoid). The readouts were more volatile and demanded your attention to catch the transition point, but the taste and thermofilter readings confirmed that I was consistently hitting within a 1.5F range centered around the target, which isn't shabby for such a low-tech low-cost solution.

Of course this means tapping threads... but that also eliminates the need for a custom adapter. Any old off-the-shelf Swagelok will do. Oh, what we do for looks.

doesn't "been there, done that" count for anything anymore?

Meta-comment: I thought your comment about F!F! was kind of funny, but it helps that I know you and your curmudgeonly ways. Plus I don't mind hearing the cold hard truth from time-to-time.

[arossphoto]

I'm still exploring the options here, and looking for Canadian sources for some of the test equipment mentioned. I've found a source (http://www.omega.ca) for the Omega meter that Eric recommends in his Word doc, but I can't find the thermocouple. The shortest probe on the page below that Eric links to is 6 inches, yet he suggests 2 inches, and I saw someone else here is using 1.5 inches. Any suggestions for a probe?

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=TJC36&Nav=tema07

Here's the link to the same page on the Canadian site:

http://www.omega.ca/shop/pptsc.asp?ref=TJC36

Cheers,

Andrew

[barry]

omega (at least omega usa) will custom build probes, and 2" is usually do-able.

[arossphoto]

omega (at least omega usa) will custom build probes, and 2" is usually do-able.

Thanks. Do you have to call them for this? They have a part builder on the page linked above that lets you build a custom probe, but the shortest option is 6 inches.

[barry]

use the probe configurator and select "custom length"...

http://www.omega.com/config/probeconfig.html

[erics]

Hi Andrew -

Barry is correct re Omega & custom orders. You just have to tell them what you really want in the "notes" section when ordering over the internet.

I have two tested Omega Type T, 1/16" thermocouples in front of me. One is a 1.75" long HTTC with 24" of teflon insulated 30 gauge lead wire having a miniature male connector plug attached. The other is a 2.00" long TJC with 22" of teflon insulated 24 gauge lead wire, stainless steel overbraided, also having a miniature male connector plug attached. The TJC with the stainless overbraid would probably not be available from Omega unless you talked very nicely and knowledgeably to them over the phone.
Contact me if you want either of these.

See the FAQ section of the install manual for more info on thermocouples. Just remember there are monetary penalties for those who do not read the install manual in its entirety (grin).

As you can imagine, there are pros and cons to just about every combination of thermocouple and meter out there and lots depends on what you want to do now and what you might want to do in the future.

Eric S.

[arossphoto]

Hi Andrew -

Barry is correct re Omega & custom orders. You just have to tell them what you really want in the "notes" section when ordering over the internet.

I see that in your document now that I have read a little further I'll print the whole thing out and read through it a couple times to see if this is really something I want to get into or not.

Cheers.

[Ozark_61]

I wanted to add another pro to the list for this device. After some time of using this, I learned something that many probably already know, but was new to me... beware, extreme geek (oops..) factor ahead..

If you do your cooling flush to 201', then pull your shot after a little pause, then you will have a stable shot, maybe around 200' at the finish of the shot - pretty good! But, if you then prep your next shot, and then do the cooling flush to 201' again, then you will not have the same stability through your shot, due to all the cooling you've done (reduced heat capacity in the grouphead, I believe). It could even get down to 198'. I find that I might compensate by not cooling as much on the second / third shots, maybe 202' instead, and then you will finish up around 200-201', and you probably want to lengthen the 'post-cooling-flush' as well.

Just thought I'd pass along my observations as this device really helps you to get a good idea of what's really going on!

Cheers,
Geoff

[altoCalgary]

I recently received Eric's excellent adaptor kit. (I have an Andreja Premium plumbed with a rotary-vane pump, water conditioner and active carbon filter and the pstat is a Sirai commercial one.) In a private post, Eric asked me to use his adaptor kit to determine grouphead temperatures under various conditions.

"A thermocouple, properly inserted into the adaptor will read temperature "X" under no flow conditions with the machine fully warmed up - at least 45 minutes of no use. This temperature X is really hot air as influenced by a hefty chunk of the surrounding metal. This temperature is dependent upon your normal pstat setting, i.e. 1.1 bar, 1.2 bar. etc. Let me know what "X" is for you. "

This is a summary of my initial findings:

Table:

Commercial Sirai PStat set to:
Heater Turns on, Heater Turns Off, Heating Overshoots, Max. Idle Temp, Max. Temp. during shot
         
0.95 bar,        1.1 bar,          1.15 bar,           206.8 F,        214.4 F

1.0 bar,         1.15 bar,         1.2 bar,            208.2 F,        215.8 F

1.05 bar,        1.25 bar,         1.3 bar,            210.6 F,        217.7 F

1.1 bar,         1.3 bar,          1.4 bar,            211.1 F,        218.7 F

It should be noted that I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Calgary officially is 3441.6 ft above sea level. I live at 3627 feet above sea level. This means that water boils in my house at approximately 205.5 degrees F.

Please DO NOT add 6 degrees F to these temperatures, if you live at sea-level. As Eric noted in a private email, "Calgary's 206 F is equivalent to 206 F. There's no correction in measured values for altitude as there is for some computed values, engine horsepower as an example. "

In Schomer's Espresso Coffee Updated Professional Techniques, on pages 54 and 55, he discusses some of the issues associated with high altitude brewing.

"If you are in Denver Colorado, the mile high city, you are just going to have to experiment to find your ideal brewing temperature. Espresso brewed that altitude [using the Schomer ideal of 203.5 F] will appear the same as burnt espresso brewed at too high a temperature; dark, streaky with a lot of big bubbles in the crema."

I am interested in those of you who live at 3000 feet or above, have an adaptor kit and what temperatures you have found most successful for initiating your shots.

[randomperson]

altoCalgary -- Fascinating post! but I had trouble interpreting it. Could you tell me -- if the Sirai is set to .95 bar (and tops out at 1 bar) what is the idle temp? And how did you determine shot temp?

The reason I am asking is tht I could not quite read your stats the way you typed them in. In any case if I read your chart correctly, that would mean that the idle temp at the head for a .95 bar setting is 206. That would explain why I have trouble seeing the "HX Flash" since at 206 there wouldn't be any flash at all. Am I making any sense???? Or should I be thinking about shot temp instead? (Which would make more sense, since lately I fantastize that I am in fact able to see the end of the flash -- er, sometimes -- when I am flushing.)

[miKe mcKoffee]

altoCalgary -- Fascinating post! but I had trouble interpreting it. Could you tell me -- if the Sirai is set to .95 bar (and tops out at 1 bar) what is the idle temp? And how did you determine shot temp?

The reason I am asking is tht I could not quite read your stats the way you typed them in. In any case if I read your chart correctly, that would mean that the idle temp at the head for a .95 bar setting is 206. That would explain why I have trouble seeing the "HX Flash" since at 206 there wouldn't be any flash at all. Am I making any sense???? Or should I be thinking about shot temp instead? (Which would make more sense, since lately I fantastize that I am in fact able to see the end of the flash -- er, sometimes -- when I am flushing.)

No it wouldn't explain why you have trouble hearing the flash. Remember at idle the group is under temp compared to the HX itself which is over temp and the HX over heated water is what causes the flash.

[altoCalgary]

I have just edited my post. Unfortunately, although I used lots of spacing for my table, the posting compacted my data and made it unreadable.

Here is some background information. I have a Fluke 51 II thermometer. I ordered a T-type probe custom made from Thermo-Kinetics in Canada.
Here is the description number: T-063-316-S-0002.5-B-85N-000-O036-0-A89FW
The probe calibrated to 31.8 degrees F in a ice bath of distilled water.

I set the thermometer to record MIN, MAX and AVG while the Andreja was heating. After about hour and a quarter, I checked the maximum recorded temperature. That is the Max Idle Temperature. Then I poured a shot into an empty (no grounds) portafilter. My quick Fluke recorded the Max temperature of the pour.

I hope this is clearer, now.

[randomperson]

Thanks again Mike -- you are always so helpful!!!

The truth is that as I have been futzing with La Valentina for a couple of weeks now -- just when I stopped looking for the end of the flash I am suddenly starting to easily see it. Go figure! For the life of me I don't know why I couldn't see it before but now can (or so I imagine, anyway!)

Still have no idea what temp I am achieving though. Routine is now flash plus 9 count (6.5 ounces), 20 second rebound. Pstat at .95 topping out at 1 bar. Any idea what temp I might be getting? I love the results, so I'm not complaining -- but it would be nice to know what I'm actually doing -- for a change!

[altoCalgary]

RandomPerson,

You have a beautiful E61 machine in the La Valentina. You are also pulling shots that make you happy. Now you need some way of accurately determining what temperatures are behind your great shots. This site lists several ways of doing this. At this stage, Eric's adaptor kit, a custom T thermocouple probe and either a PID controller or a thermometer that accepts a T probe will likely give you a better sense for what is happening. The next step you might wish to take once you have these, would be a real-time data-logging system that records exactly what is happening from the beginning to the end of your shot and so on for several shots with different wait times. Although the probe is not at the puck surface, it is as close as anything that I am aware of for monitoring actual shots being poured.

Just my opinion.