Middle Aged Men in Their Pajamas - Page 4

[Ken Fox]

I for one have not hesitated to challenge even the likes of Ken Fox when I though he was wrong, and as you know <sigh>, I think that a lot.

But of course Ken always takes it in stride, and we're still pals afterwards.

you mean, like that time you wanted to give me an enema?

ken

[AndyS]

you mean, like that time you wanted to give me an enema?

Not so much that I wanted to give you one; it was more that you desperately NEEDED one. IMHO, of course.

[Ken Fox]

Not so much that I wanted to give you one; it was more that you desperately NEEDED one. IMHO, of course.

does the offer still stand?

ken

[Fullsack]

Fullsack, please accept my apology. I did not mean to post in such a way that it could be taken as ridicule.

I felt (and still feel) that some of the statements you made in that thread were flat wrong. In attempting to set the record straight, I meant to correct your ideas. To the extent that I instead leveled a personal attack, that is just my immaturity.

Again, I apologize.

Thanks Andy, but I should be the one apologizing. It was unfair of me to single you out, there were plenty of other examples I could have used. I was trying to make a point, but looking back on it, it looked like I was targeting you, I wasn't.

I am still holding my ground about the Gene, but open to further discussion.

[Fullsack]

...we all should avoid statements we cannot support. And if this post has a chilling effect on unsupported claims, it will be a welcome result.

I agree and I supported my Gene argument well.

Could you please supply us with a list? I get raked over the coals even on those rare occasions where I know what I'm talking about, and I for one have not hesitated to challenge even the likes of Dan Kehn when I thought he was wrong . . . .

ken

I was actually thinking of a list you made, don't remember which thread, the S's: Andy, Jim, Dave and I'm sure you included Dan as well. I have seen the raking you mention, maybe I overstated a little to make my point

[Fullsack]

I would be worried as a moderator that we are censoring product criticism. It is that connection that bothers me.

This wasn't a statement aimed at moderators, but an observation that product criticism is occasionally met with attacks, sometimes personal. Some people are very devoted to equipment they own or represent and lash out when it is criticized. Many of us see enough combat at work and don't want to deal with it on a recreational website.

[HB]

...I for one have not hesitated to challenge even the likes of Dan Kehn when I thought he was wrong.

As well you should. For the record, I don't consider myself an authority on espresso. My main qualification is that I spend a lot of time preparing, thinking, and writing about espresso, but the same could be said for many members of this board.

Some people are very devoted to equipment they own or represent and lash out when it is criticized.

You're right, unfortunately some interpret criticisms of their choices as condemnation of their judgment and respond "in kind." In my opinion, prolonged arguing with such an individual is pointless as they are are not listening to other views. Astute readers will see the situation for what it is and weigh the presented opinions accordingly.

[Kuban111]

Astute reader here,

I've enjoy reading extensively the post on this site for some time now & for what ever its worth I came to this site looking for info like so many others.
Speaking for myself my normal practice is to weigh in all the info that I gather plus take in to account the credibility of the person giving that info. I normally take it all in and then run it thru the noodle strainer.

Unfortunately I don't have the long time relationship some of you might have with each other from posting here or from knowing each other personally. So how I judge credibility is difficult at times. But in a way that's a good thing, I believe when it comes down to making a decision I wouldn't allowed myself from making let's say a purchasing buy because so & so has one & thinks it's just the best thing on God's green earth.

I great way that I've come to maybe know a little bit about some of the regular members here on HB is from reading your post. I strongly believe that you are who you are by what comes out from with in by actions or by words. So I place close attention not only to what is said but who is saying it and why?

Example of this would be the down dosing threads.
It was all new to me & I never would have thought about it or even would have tried it out if it wasn't for the discussion. Yes I even went out and got myself a ramekin like it was suggested and started weight in all my baskets. Well because I was open to it, in the end I ended walking away with a little more knowledge about what I like and what I didn't like. Do I down dose every time I pull a shot? I've come to know that I enjoy 18g
on a double basket for americano and 14g or 15g when I prepare an espresso sometimes depending on the blend or the shot but not less. I use what ever technique or bit of info that would help me achieve my desire outcome.

As far as the action from the threads.
At times it felt like I was watching C-span or the British Parliament sessions with every one expressing there opinions but hey I think it was all worth it from this newbie's point of view. It was informative, challenging and in some ways rewarding. Everyone ends up taking what they want from a post anyway Positive or negative.

This is a great forum with free flowing thinking so I believe that censorship should not be thought upon. But I do believe if the sole purpose of this site is to inform & educate while bringing new and challenging ideas and theories to the Home-Barista. Then each individual member should be responsible for censoring themselves.

For example if the discussion is about a newbie related question. Knowing that that individual is not able to comprehend technical data. What would be the reason or profit for explaining in a technical fashion, unless if that individual was able to understand. But it's not to say you have to down play and think that every new person is a m*ron. ...........Just simply post with wisdom.

Just something's from a fellow lurker, now let me get back to flipping a coin up in the air to see what new grinder to get....(tails) Cimbali Max Hybrid or (heads) MACAP M7KR............. mmmmm

jesawdy a refreshing response,
Ken Thank You.


Enjoy
Michael

[Psyd]

I think you should not make an attempt to correct the record in that particular example because your knowledge is no more than hearsay. However, if you used the equipment and had a different experience than those positive posters, you should.

One minor quibble, here, Abe. This isn't court, and hearsay has it's place. Of course, in keeping with my previous drivel on the subject matter at hand, as long as it is labeled as such!

"I heard from Mr. X that...", "My local salesperson at Espresso Moneypit said...", and "The voices in my head tell me..." are all fine examples of passing on what may or may not be valid or important information, without giving it any more weight than it deserves.
"I heard these specific things from this specific source" isn't unwarranted in a discussion such as the ones that you're speaking about, and, "In light of that it is my opinion that..., and, "I think that was..." are also acceptable things to post. You are allowed to have your opinions, and as long as you post that these are opinions, and what they are based on, they can become useful. As soon as they are thought to be gospel they can (if false) be remarkably detrimental, and if they aren't given a foundation they may be passed over.

Nuttin' wrong wid no hearsay

[Abe Carmeli]

One minor quibble, here, Abe. This isn't court, and hearsay has it's place. Of course, in keeping with my previous drivel on the subject matter at hand, as long as it is labeled as such!

It is a slippery slope. "I've heard that..." is at times from someone who had heard it from someone who had heard that his neighbor had heard it from his cousin. By the time you got it, it was Big Foot, and he was seen pulling shots at a small bistro in Seattle, and I tell you man, they were really good shots. If you want to put that disclaimer, I'll say yes.

Let's let the people who had the experience describe it, and stay out of the rumor and innuendo circle. It is only fair play. In your eyes it is not a court, but that's not the experience the people who make the equipment and sell it have. An unfounded claim trashing their ware/service/coffee can be devastating. Those words are mighty powerful.

Nuttin' wrong wid no hearsay

As long as it's not about my sister.

P.S. I can see a typical situation where I would be comfortable with hearsay, and that is when someone asks "Has anyone heard anything about..." He is specifically asking for it. I'll be cool telling him what I heard from my 2nd cousin.

[Ken Fox]

As long as I'm not on the receiving end.

P.S. I can see a typical situation where I would be comfortable with hearsay, and that is when someone asks "Has anyone heard anything about..." He is specifically asking for it. I'll be cool telling him what I heard from my 2nd cousin.

I made it pretty clear in my posts on that particular roaster that it was 3 prominent people whom I personally respected who had independently made the comments to me about that piece of equipment. Had any one of the three said what all three of them said (all being fairly similar), I would not personally buy that piece of equipment, end statement.

I think it is more than simply hearing some potentially ill founded rumour and repeating it. I trusted the sources and repeated what they had said to me, however without attribution because none of them gave me permission to quote them about this subject in an internet forum.

kn

[treshell]

Yes I am a newbe--- and Yes you who have been are all wise. Even as newbe we come to the table with the ability to discern and make choices that benefit us personally. Otherwise we would all now own Silvia & Rocky:>
treshell

[ByronA]

LOL, well said treshell! Here! Here!

I would also like to add that I really really like the title of this thread! "Middle Aged Men in Their Pajamas!" It has got to be one of the best titles I have ever seen on a forum! Ken, you really should write a book with this title. Or failing that, get an underwriter to write one for you. It really is GREAT!

That is all I have left to say on this subject. I'm leaving now...

[Kuban111]

Yes I am a newbe--- and Yes you who have been are all wise. Even as newbe we come to the table with the ability to discern and make choices that benefit us personally. Otherwise we would all now own Silvia & Rocky:>
treshell

You can't make this up I tell you. Better than a bad spanish novela.


Michael.

[AndyS]

I made it pretty clear in my posts on that particular roaster that it was 3 prominent people whom I personally respected who had independently made the comments to me about that piece of equipment. Had any one of the three said what all three of them said (all being fairly similar), I would not personally buy that piece of equipment, end statement.

Even though The Three Wise Men said Fairly Similar Things about That Piece Of Equipment, I think it's really premature to write it off. People are just beginning to understand its dynamics. With a decent bean temperature probe and a simple ramp/soak PID, that roaster will ROCK!

Maybe.

[Ken Fox]

Even though The Three Wise Men said Fairly Similar Things about That Piece Of Equipment, I think it's really premature to write it off. People are just beginning to understand its dynamics. With a decent bean temperature probe and a simple ramp/soak PID, that roaster will ROCK!

Maybe.

I can understand the interest in hacking some (otherwise) remarkable piece of equipment, such as a really nice single group commercial espresso machine that just doesn't happen to be very temperature consistent when making occasional shots at odd intervals in a home environment.

It is something altogether different to take some inexpensive and unproven device with a previously untested heat source, and to put that much effort into it. If it were me, I'd start out with a nice bbq drum, put it in a gas bbq that I could insulate, and concentrate my efforts there.

But that is just me.

ken

[ByronA]

Hearsay can provide some value, even without any backup.

It suggests that the item may need a little more review, even if in the end, the hearsay is discounted. The bottom line is that hearsay means nothing to those who know. But it can help those who don't know by causing them to review their information and do further research. If it is false, that source loses some credibility.

[CoffeeOwl]

I made it pretty clear in my posts on that particular roaster that it was 3 prominent people whom I personally respected who had independently made the comments to me about that piece of equipment. Had any one of the three said what all three of them said (all being fairly similar), I would not personally buy that piece of equipment, end statement.

I think it is more than simply hearing some potentially ill founded rumour and repeating it. I trusted the sources and repeated what they had said to me, however without attribution because none of them gave me permission to quote them about this subject in an internet forum.

kn

Ken,

I bet that they had a bad experiences with that particular roaster because they did not talk with that piece of equipment.
From 'Heather Perry's 11 tips for World Class Espresso':
#2: Talk to Your Roaster

[Kaffee Bitte]

If it were me, I'd start out with a nice bbq drum, put it in a gas bbq that I could insulate, and concentrate my efforts there.

This is truly a good way to go. With the right mods you have a great deal of manual control and the possiblity of roasting larger quantities.

I have enjoyed this thread a great deal. Overall I don't think much should be done about this issue. People will make their own choices, and those who somehow can't will always let others do their thinking for them. I suppose that is their right. I have watched various threads where the posts took on higher and higher levels of personal attack, and it didn't take long for me to just utterly ignore those threads. They always turned out to be a few people nipping back and forth at each other. Honestly if you really want to join these attack threads, go for it, but I will just coast on to threads that contain something that actually interests me. There is certainly a point though when the thread should be locked, and I think the moderators are well aware of when that is. Just let them do their thing.