Microfoaming on europiccola -- new question, I hope!

[pavman]

After years of trying to microfoam and pour latte art with a millennium europiccola, here are my observations, problems, etc:

Very simply, if I keep the tip completely submerged -- even if it's only just barely completely covered in the milk -- I wind up with hot milk. No microfoam. (It seems to me, most of the europiccola frothing videos I've seen keep the tip fairly well submerged, yet somehow wind up with mf. Hmm.)

Of course, if I go the other way, and try to surf, I often wind up with bubbles.

What I've taken to doing is living with the bubbles that sometimes come with surfing, and with the encouragement of the whirlpool effect, and then sinking the tip quickly -- sooner than I used to -- and hoping the bubbles dissipate before the milk gets too thick for art, which is another problem.

Sometimes, I get good results, but the resulting "art" is almost never completely bubble free. Some mornings are better than others...

Now, I've read all the threads, looked at all the videos. I've tried the tip in the center of the pitcher -- where I usually leave it these days -- but I've also tried it against the edge.

Clearly with more powerful machines, microfoam frothing is probably easier. But I know it can be done. You've all said so! What am I missing? (I haven't tried plugging up a hole, 'cause I'd like to see if mf is possible without doing so...)

Pouring the actual art is another matter... But please help me consistently achieve "perfect" mf, if you can.

Couple other questions. When I raise the lever and hold it in the up position for the preinfusion, sometimes droplets of water leak from where the piston is exposed by the lever raising, and onto the top of the grouphead -- usually more onto the left side of the gf, but sometimes onto both left and right -- and I wind up repeatedly drying the dripping before pulling the shot. Curiously, this doesn't happen when I pull a blank shot. Ideas?

Often, during the pull, a lot of steam escapes from where the gf is attached to the boiler. I place my left hand on the boiler cap to stabilize the machine, so I often get a mild scalding during the pull. Not so bad as to stop me from doing it, but I'd rather it didn't happen. Never used to. Am I pulling too hard?

Thanks so much for your thoughts on any or all!

[shadowfax]

I always had the best luck doing it like here:

Note that I had the best luck bending the wand out to help with a whirlpool

you can check out the rest of the set (the first half of it is making espresso (a cappuccino) with a La Pavoni. I always found that I had the best luck with a good bit of swirl and tapping.

[pavman]

wow, nice work! And you've kept your machine spotless. Mine looks good too, but the metal to the right of the steam knob is a little patina-y...

By the way, with regard to the questions I asked at the bottom of my post, it is not my girlfriend who is attached to the boiler -- I typed gf, but meant, gh, my shorthand for, grouphead.

[shadowfax]

If you have a leak on the piston in the grouphead, you need to replace your gaskets on the machine.

[orwa]

After years of trying...
... But I know it can be done. You've all said so!

But please help me consistently achieve "perfect" mf, if you can.

I suggest that you don't trust what other people say as much, and to trust your years of experience a little more. No one said it can be done, I tell you, it can't... !

The reason why people say they got to it could be as simple as that what they consider perfect microfoam is simply too thick for you. With the Pavoni's, the problem is twofold, and getting perfect microfoam from the thing is at best difficult (sometimes impossible).

[shadowfax]

I did always have issues with large bubbles that the whirlpool couldn't pop. The La Pavoni, I find, needs a lot more swirl and tap attention than, say, my Vetrano. Moreover, I consider it something more of a challenge than Vetrano, to some degree.

Still, if your results don't compare with my own humble creations, which I think clearly demonstrate that perfect latté art COULD be poured by someone with a steadier hand, then you ought to know that you're missing something.





Microfoam is just a word for bubbles, and it doesn't have a specified "thickness". The "thickness" will be determined by a ratio of liquid to bubbles and a degree to which the two are mixed together. Since microfoam is a measure of the size of the bubbles that you produce--they are supposed to be too small to look like bubbles to the naked eye--if you have issues with excessive thickness, don't froth for as long as you do, and spend more time with the all-important whirlpool.

[Spresso_Bean]

I can barely even get a whirlpool going with my vintage Europiccola, so I wonder if the Millennium model has better steaming action. I get the pitcher of hot milk no matter what I try...good to see some can get microfoam, though. Might just need more practice.

[shadowfax]

The Millennium--maybe. I do have a Pre-Millennium Professional, which does have double the boiler capacity. It is possible, even probable, that this makes things a lot easier.

[trix]

I also have a pre-millennium La Pavoni Professional. I have no problem getting the whirlpool going. I do have a piece of toothpick plugging up the hole closest to the boiler. I do have to stop before the milk gets frothed too thick for latte art. I was frothing too long and thick most of the time before....(I can make some nice designs with chocolate syrup to sit on top of the thick cappa foam .)

I think I am getting close because I stop before it is too thick and I swirl and tap the cup enough to blend but haven't really gotten the pour technique down yet. I poured half of a deer antler yesterday. I am not yet sure what to do with my hand movement and how much it has to do with pour speed...the combination of the two?. Any hints would be appreciated. I've watched lots of videos but when I am actually doing it...well, it is different.

[shadowfax]

Lucy, I know what you mean about watching the videos and thinking you got it, and then it not working out at all. When I was first learning "the basics," it took me a good while. I'd like to share a compilation of highlights from some of my early attempts, for your amusement.


An early attempt on my Gaggia Espresso.

I was so excited to get that nice top part. It was kind of funny how it appeared after the total botching of the first half...


Unintentional apple.

This is about the best thing that ever happened to me with way over-foamed milk. Again, the Gaggia Espresso.


Shockwaves of a bullet just before passing through a wall.

Apparently I forgot how to wiggle the pitcher! I don't even remember how I did this, but that is with Silvia. Note that there's real espresso there, and it was properly foamed! Those were big steps for me.

Anyway, when I got down to learning how to do a rosetta pour, I would spend a good long time at the sink. I would pour about 2 oz. of water into the cup, and fill the pitcher halfway with water, and would practice, practice, practice wiggling the pitcher smoothly, and cutting it just right. What eventually worked for me was just watching the best latté art videos, trying it, and then watching them again the next day or something. There's so much that goes on in them that you don't notice until you really try it, repeatedly. You have to keep at it, until it clicks. It's a process of developing muscle memory and fine-tuning it, like learning to ride a bicycle--expect to fall of many times before you get it right, eh?

Anyway, I hope this helps. Good luck.

[trix]

Thanks for sharing those photos. I have gotten something similar to all three, but no good rosetta yet.

I hadn't thought of using water for practice; I'll try it as you suggested.

[orwa]

Microfoam is just a word for bubbles, and it doesn't have a specified "thickness". The "thickness" will be determined by a ratio of liquid to bubbles and a degree to which the two are mixed together. Since microfoam is a measure of the size of the bubbles that you produce--they are supposed to be too small to look like bubbles to the naked eye--if you have issues with excessive thickness, don't froth for as long as you do, and spend more time with the all-important whirlpool.

I forgot to tell you that the photo with the sweating pitcher in top was fantastic, I give it 10 out of 10 for photography, and most of your photos are very good. However, the milk quality seen afterwards is at most given 4 out of 10 (I am talking about the Pavoni's), and certainly doesn't qualify for latte art. This is called cappuccino art.

Microfoam, or simply properly steamed milk is not hot milk with a cap of foam, nor is it some ratio between foam to milk, or some average bubble size. Properly steamed milk is a homogenous liquid whose state has changed in the sense that it tastes different from usual milk, feels different in the mouth, and has a different density. A good test is to pour samples of steamed milk (both from top and bottom of a pitcher) into a number of shot glasses with a single drop of food colouring at the bottom of each. After that, you should not see any barrier between a fully-liquid and a fully-foamy state except at the very top layer (only the surface adjacent to air will get foamy), no matter how you leave it, for an hour, for two, etc. Also, the colour will never be as dark as that of the same amount of colouring for the same amount of milk, it will be lighter.

I can produce properly steamed milk on my Professional, nearly reliably, hence I said it was possible, however it's at best di-ffi-cult, and I think that it isn't possible on the Europiccola, as this machine has an over-pressure valve that will start hissing and releasing steam at a pressure near to 1.5 bars, at which no such results are possible (prove me wrong, I will be more than happy). On my Professional, I have the older over-pressure valve with the metal ball and the hard spring which doesn't open at pressures as high as 2.5 bars.

I do not expect you to agree with me, as this is a wide misconception. However I expect you to notice that your Vetrano can give results that aren't only slightly better, but rather far better.

[shadowfax]

I don't really disagree with you--I can see the distinction, and it makes sense. I do what I like (yes, cappuccinos with super-dense, tiny bubbles that end up on top by the time I drink it). I would describe what I typically produce as "in between" and "partially separated" on account of the swirling and tapping that I have to do on the La Pavoni, just to get out the stray big bubbles. I would agree with your rating (4/10), I think.

Vetrano is certainly much easier to work with, and I would agree that it's "quality ceiling" appears to be significantly higher than the La Pavoni. One of the big factors to this, I find, is how easy it is to position and fine tune the wand angle on Vetrano. This makes a big difference.

Another thing that makes a big difference in milk steaming, in my experience, is the orientation of the holes.

I found that I got the best results on the Pavoni with a configuration like this:
\ /
|
That is, one hole pointing down, the other two "up" at, what is that, 60° angles from vertical? Then I would position the arm at maybe a 45° angle... That helped the whirlpool a ton. YMMV as always. I am curious how this compares to what you do, orwa.

[orwa]

Here comes the second, sad part. It isn't even possible with the original tip . I wanted to say that I am 100% sure of this, but I will be humble and say 90% sure.

I use an ugly acorn nut tip that is ugly to the eye, and not so easy to clean because it accumulates milk at the back end and around the holes. However I can produce properly steamed milk using it. I have previously steamed milk using a Black&Decker's steaming device with maybe 500ml boiler and a single-hole acorn nut tip, call it nonsense, but I had times that my parents still recall. The milk I produced at that time always come back to me and tells me that there is yet much to be desired, even with the latte-art quality milk I currently produce. The true difference is in the taste, the current milk tastes good, density good, everything good, but that milk I produced for a while wasn't ordinary, the mouthfeel was divine. I remember that I once read on the forums for someone called Luca (a Professional Barista) writing about the best milk he ever steamed, and he said that this was on a Giada, which is a humble, single-boiler machine (not as humble as my Black&Decker's, though).

So what I wanted to say is that milk is a yet-discoverable art, and it's always difficult to say if any result is good enough or not. Lately, my father travelled and when he came back he was so excited to tell me about that coin super-automatic on the street that he paid for a latte, he was so amazed by the quality and said "it was almost as perfect as that milk you used to steam at the time". Expectedly, I tried not to show how offended I was, by being paralleled by the stupid, super-automatic machine .

[orwa]

Hello everyone,

I thought this was extraordinary and I thought you may like to watch it. This Asian guy is able to produce a very, very good milk with the Europiccola and the original tip! (Sorry I said it was not possible )

I noticed from the guy's pours that the milk quality was very good, so I asked him to document his frothing procedure for me, instead of documenting his mediocre (ehm, really mediocre) brewing skills. A month later, he responded to my request and made a large number of steaming videos and honestly, they are amazing!



You may compare this to the difficult route I took when I started playing with different acorn nut tip designs. Here is an example of my steaming procedure, although the milk in this case was too thin: (I steam in a large number of positions, and this is a relatively recent position. It was a consequence of the stupid idea that I should spin the milk clockwise as the water in the sink in Saudi Arabia spins in the same direction -to let the Earth magnetic field aid my frothing):



And here is how the milk mixes with the espresso shot, note that the way they mix also indicates a milk of good quality, despite the fact that it's too thin for art. I will try to do better art when the topic is about the art, rather than about the milk itself, however, it was partly because the milk was too thin and partly because the camera was practically inside the cup (actually this is what I was saying in Arabic at the end: I am the one who is pouring here!).


Orwa's retarded rosetta!

[shadowfax]

That definitely made me realize one thing about frothing--doing very large quantities, while it takes an agonizingly long time, is very easy compared to frothing 3-4 oz. in a 12 oz. pitcher. It takes much longer, and the larger volume of liquid is less volatile in terms of splashing, etc. Large volumes develop much smoother whirlpools/standing waves. It's definitely helpful in learning to microfoam to use 6-8 oz. of milk rather than 3-4. It will make a big difference.

[orwa]

But this doesn't really explain it, the moment I saw how good this guy's results were I went to my Professional, immediately, replaced the current tip with the original one and did exactly what he is doing. Needless to say, the results proved that wasting huge amounts of milk with that tip in the past counts, and that there was still something missing. Note that he bent the over-pressure valve tube and only steamed when the over-pressure valve was releasing steam violently which indicates a pressure of 1.5bars and relatively dry steam. I replicated that, along with the amount of milk and the angle of the wand. It did not work, even when it looks fine while you're frothing the moment you turn off steam the surface of the milk hardens and looks frothy, rather than smooth and silky. This indicates that the milk and foam immediately separate which is supported by the food-colouring test; you simply get samples of hard foam, and samples of ordinary milk in the shot glasses. This original tip is an utter disaster.

[pavman]

wow, some very tantalizing examples and discussion here.

First, Shadowfax's "shockwave..." photo is a great example, and is similar in quality to the best foaming I've ever been able to get. I think the art itself is also pretty cool, but milk quality-wise what I like is there are no visible bubbles on top of the foam, and the milk is level with the crema, indicating to me the "ideal" synthesis of milk and espresso in a capp.

It is amazing to me how much milk when frothed like this improves the taste of the drink. Whether my pour is successful or not, when the milk magically appears and cuts through the crema, ultimately resting on the same plane -- with no bubbles -- then I know it's gonna taste good. If my shot's come out well, that is. Any art I achieve is icing.

What gets me is I can never get milk like that two days in a row. I think if I did, I'd feel I finally had a handle on frothing, and could turn all my attention to the pour.

Lucy, I love your description of pouring "half a deer antler".

The Asian frothing video orwa posted is fascinating. I don't know how the guy keeps the pitcher so perfectly still. Anyway, I've tried replicating it twice and both times I end up with just a lot of very hot milk. (Yesterday at least there was some soap bubble type stuff at the bottom of the pitcher. Not that I was happy with that, but today I didn't even get that -- no foam to speak of at all, just very, very hot milk).

So...?

How that guy never moved, never broke the surface and confronted bubbles, never even seemed to get much whirlpooling going on -- and then poured that rosetta?! Well, how? why? what?

I do have one observation I've found that may be of use to some. With regard to whether the europiccola is powerful enough steam-wise, I find that if I overfill the boiler -- not so much so that it's dangerous -- this brings a lot of extra steaming power to the party. When I open up the valve once the machine's at brewing temp to get rid of false pressure, I often wind up with 2 oz of water, just from the frothing wand. I pour that into the cup to warm it. Then I pull a blank shot -- which leaves the boiler 3/4 full -- and then I pull the actual espresso shot.

When it's time to froth, the steam power is still much greater than it usually is when I start with the boiler filled only up to the top of the sight glass.

[orwa]

How that guy never moved, never broke the surface and confronted bubbles, never even seemed to get much whirlpooling going on -- and then poured that rosetta?! Well, how? why? what?

To me, how the milk moves during this guy's steaming procedure is indicative of professional steaming and very high milk quality. Like you said, the video only tells half of the story and cannot be simply replicated. My current theory is that he is using a modified tip that is not simply "the same tip with one of the holes blocked". However I am not sure yet to what he is doing, I tried to ask him in the YouTube video page but he did not respond, although he was nice enough to post the steaming video initially.

Moreover, for the repeatability, I may be able to help you on that. Here is my humble advice:

(1) Don't resort to over filling the machine with water as this will change the thermal behaviour of the group due to the fact that there will now be a direct contact between the water in the boiler and the insider part of the group. The best level of water is the one corresponding to the line on the boiler, which means "just below the point where the water becomes in direct contact with the group, internally".
(2) After the first point is followed comes the crucial part of the technique, which requires that you always prepare the basket while the machine is heating up, that is, if you're the sort of a person who would leave the machine alone while heating up, then you may not like to follow this. However, in case you stay close to the machine, then the trick is simply not to put the boiler's cap on until the water in the boiler starts boiling vigorously. Only then, you may put the boiler cap on. This obviously does the job of false pressure removal and most importantly, ensures starting from a well-defined starting point every time, so that the pressure gauge reading on the Professional model will always be more reliable with this technique.

This, as I noticed, enhances the repeatability significantly and makes the job of properly bleeding the tip way easier.

[pavman]

As to your first point, you may be right -- maybe there is something else going on with that tip. But it certainly looks like a standard tip. I liked that, 'cause I want to believe good microfoam is possible with one, even without toothpicks.

(I know I'm not going to achieve what I might with a professional machine, or even a prosumer one. But again, what he does in that video filled me with hope, and then, as usual, caused frustration!)

I have to say I do stand there preparing the basket while the machine heats up, but I've never thought of leaving the cap off until the boiling starts. That seems very dangerous, no?

Besides, what part of the machine would you hold in order to give yourself leverage while tightening the cap?... Yes, one could hold the handle, but the whole idea seems a bit risky to me. Interesting, though.