Mazzer Mini E or Cimbali Max Hybrid

[sixysixss]

I'm currently using a Pasquini Livia 90 and Pasquini grinder for my espresso needs. I'm going to get a new Mini Vivaldi II and a new grinder. Can anyone give comparisons of the Mazzer Mini E and the Cimbali Max Hybrid? I usually only grind for espresso. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

Rob

[Ken Fox]

I'm currently using a Pasquini Livia 90 and Pasquini grinder for my espresso needs. I'm going to get a new Mini Vivaldi II and a new grinder. Can anyone give comparisons of the Mazzer Mini E and the Cimbali Max Hybrid? I usually only grind for espresso. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

Rob

The Max is a very uncommon grinder at this point, and I haven't read of anyone trying to compare it to a Mazzer Mini E doserless. I have a lot of experience with the Max's (owning 3 of them now), and even more experience with a Cimbali Jr. and Cimbali Max, both of which have the same 64mm planar burr set. I've even owned a Mazzer Mini once (for 3 months), which however has smaller burrs. The Mazzer Mini E has 64 mm planar burrs.

Going from general principles, I'd expect the Mazzer Mini E to produce grinds like other 64 mm planar burr grinders, such as the aforementioned Cimbali planar grinders, and the Mazzer Super Jolly. Assuming this to be correct, the Mazzer Mini E probably would need considerably more frequent grind change adjustments due to changes in ambient humidity and in the beans themselves as they age. As a result, you could anticipate tossing a higher percentage of your shots down the sink with the Mazzer than with the Cimbali Max, which benefits from a combined Conical/Planar burr set.

People I know of who have experience with both 64mm planar burr grinders plus the Max would include Dave Stephens (Cannonfodder), Jeff Sawdy, Jim Schulman, and myself. I think we all prefer the grinds from the Max, although Jim Schulman has issues with the Max for his preferred usage pattern, which involves frequently changing the beans being ground, intra-day. For someone who wants to use one grinder for grinding more than one type of beans in one day, the Max may be a poor choice. I would argue that any commercial grinder is a poor choice for this pattern of utilization, but then we are really getting into the realm of personal opinion and not fact.

As of several weeks ago, Chris (of Chris Coffee) told me he had sold around 25 of the new USA version of the hybrid Max; presumably more have been sold since. I would bet that a lot of those grinders went to people who (at least) lurk on this site. None of them have yet posted that they prefer any other grinder they had experience with before, to this new Max. Perhaps it is too early to expect that, but I've yet to read a post from anyone who went from a planar grinder to the new Max and decided that they had made a mistake in doing so.

Hope this helps.

ken

[sixysixss]

Thanks Ken. I appreciate you comments. I don't change beans or grind settings frequently. I'm tempted to try the Max Hybrid. Would love to hear opinions from others who have purchased this grinder. Thanks.

Rob

[Ken Fox]

Thanks Ken. I appreciate you comments. I don't change beans or grind settings frequently. I'm tempted to try the Max Hybrid. Would love to hear opinions from others who have purchased this grinder. Thanks.

Rob

use the search function (for "cimbali max" or cimbali + max) or somesuch.

you will find comments made directly by all the people i mentioned in my post plus some comments from others including Marshall.

ken

[jesawdy]

Going from general principles, I'd expect the Mazzer Mini E to produce grinds like other 64 mm planar burr grinders, such as the aforementioned Cimbali planar grinders, and the Mazzer Super Jolly. Assuming this to be correct, the Mazzer Mini E probably would need considerably more frequent grind change adjustments due to changes in ambient humidity and in the beans themselves as they age. As a result, you could anticipate tossing a higher percentage of your shots down the sink with the Mazzer than with the Cimbali Max, which benefits from a combined Conical/Planar burr set.

FWIW, I haven't used the Mini E, but I use a Cimbali MAX (same burrs as the MAX/Jr. Hybrid) and a Mazzer Super Jolly every day. It would seem (link) the 64mm burrs on the Mini E may be a bit less aggressive than those on the Super Jolly (the Mini E grinds a double in 20 seconds versus 10 on the Super Jolly).

To be quite fair to the Super Jolly, I don't really tweak the grind on it much more often (if any) than the MAX. I mostly 'set it and forget it' on both per coffee used (slightly exaggerated, I will grind finer with age). I think I perceive that the drink consistency is slightly less consistent from the Super Jolly than the MAX.

[sixysixss]

Thanks for the observation Jeff.

[CGP4]

I can't make the comparison, but I have gone from a Mazzer Mini to Cimbali Junior to Cimbali's new Max Hybrid and have not regretted any of these steps. I've never used a doserless grinder, so I can't comment on the grind quality of the Mini E, but the Cimbali is fantastic and definitely superior to the Mini (I think the Junior is also superior to the Mini). I know Anfim dosers are getting alot of love on the web these days, but the Cimbali grinders are very clean dosers with little waste. If the cleanliness aspect of the doserless design is what appeals to you, don't hesitate to get a Cimbali (of course, if you want repeatable, electronic dosing, the Mini E is the way to go).

I usually fill my grinder with 1/2 lb of beans at a time, deplete, then switch, so I am tweaking for a new blend every three days or so. Cimbali's stepless design is very easy to dial in, but I have still not had enough time with the grinder to have an opinion with respect to Ken's point that it needs less tweaking day-to-day; I can say, however, I have needed to make smaller adjustments between blends so far (however, I believe it's just coincidence, aided by the fact that the blends I use tend to have similar components). Maybe it's just the honeymoon period talking, but the pours themselves have been fantastic and I have seen less early blonding when things go bad.

For the same money, I think your espresso would be better served by paying for the unique, high-quality burrset of the Cimbali over the Mazzer's electronic control.

[Bill2]

of course, if you want repeatable, electronic dosing, the Mini E is the way to go

In my experience with the Mini E, the electronic dosing is not very repeatable at all. It can often vary by 2gm or so (for a double). So I now set the automatic dose to below what I want, and then top it up to the required level.


Bill

[HB]

In my experience with the Mini E, the electronic dosing is not very repeatable at all. It can often vary by 2gm or so (for a double).

2 grams? That's surprising. Last time I measured a series, it was 8.2, 8.6, 7.9, 8.3, 8.0, and 8.5 grams (thus 15.8 to 17.2 if you take the lowest * 2 and highest * 2). Maybe you're using hard beans and a very fine grind? I've noticed grinders are less consistent in this case. But I agree in principle, the Mini E isn't the ultimate in precision dosing; a good barista can consistently dose within one-half gram.

[Ken Fox]

2 grams? a good barista can consistently dose within one-half gram.

Call me incredulous, but I don't buy it.

Yeah, I'm sure it is true if the barista is working only with one blend, day in and day out. And maybe it helps if he is grossly updosing to 18 or 20g, whatever can be crammed into a double PF (I'm out of practice on that one and have forgotten to what extent that might or might not help you).

I have 3 identical grinders loaded with 3 different coffees virtually all the time. These 3 coffees do not look the same in the PF when I dose identical quantities (by weight) weighed out on a 1/10g scale. So if the barista is dealing with more than one coffee in a given day or week or whatever, I have very serious doubts about being able to eyeball within 0.5g on a repeatable basis.

ken

[HB]

So if the barista is dealing with more than one coffee in a given day or week or whatever, I have very serious doubts about being able to eyeball within 0.5g on a repeatable basis.

True, different coffees have different densities. To clarify, I meant consistent dosing by volume, not dosing an arbitrary coffee to a predetermined weight. That indeed would be very difficult.

[Ken Fox]

True, different coffees have different densities. To clarify, I meant consistent dosing by volume, not dosing an arbitrary coffee to a predetermined weight. That indeed would be very difficult.

Call me confused, Dan.

Dosing by volume? I'm familiar with making shots to a certain volume (which I try to do on a regular basis), but DOSING by volume?

Please explain the significance of being able to do that, to a simple minded reader such as myself.

ken

[HB]

Dosing by volume?

No idea why you're confused, but OK...

Dose to the top of the basket, level cut with your finger (or straight edge if you prefer). Assuming no gross errors while filling the basket (e.g., tapping the portafilter randomly against the grinder fork), the dose should be well within one gram of the same weight each time. For many coffees and baskets I've used, dosing without any settling motion works out to around 14 to 15 grams. I assume that's intentional design.

[Ken Fox]

No idea why you're confused, but OK...

Dose to the top of the basket, level cut with your finger (or straight edge if you prefer). Assuming no gross errors while filling the basket (e.g., tapping the portafilter randomly against the grinder fork), the dose should be well within one gram of the same weight each time. For many coffees and baskets I've used, dosing without any settling motion works out to around 14 to 15 grams. I assume that's intentional design.

For me, this has always produced 18-19g doses. But then what do I know?

ken

[Bill2]

2 grams? That's surprising. Last time I measured a series, it was 8.2, 8.6, 7.9, 8.3, 8.0, and 8.5 grams (thus 15.8 to 17.2 if you take the lowest * 2 and highest * 2). Maybe you're using hard beans and a very fine grind? I've noticed grinders are less consistent in this case. But I agree in principle, the Mini E isn't the ultimate in precision dosing; a good barista can consistently dose within one-half gram.

Presumably those weights are singles, so if you take the lowest and highest, that's 0.7gm difference for a single dose, or 1.4gm for a double.

Well not always as much as 2gm. Sure, you can get a few in a series that are within 1gm (for a double) if you are grinding one after the other, in the one session. But if you compare what you get, day to day, you often get some that are way off the mark! There's no guarantee that you're going to get within 0.5gm of your set point every time. I'll record some of the results with the next batch of beans and report back.


Bill

[HB]

For me, this has always produced 18-19g doses.

It depends on the coffee beans, grind setting, grinder, and of course the basket you're using. Just tried dosing on three grinders in a standard Faema style basket:

Mazzer Mini: 16.3 grams
Mazzer Mini Electronic: 18.0 grams
Le'Lit PL53: 13.9 grams

The Mini E has a grid on the exit chute to help meter out grounds in a more orderly fashion, but it also compresses the grounds, hence its higher weight. The PL53 has noticeably more fluffy grounds than the other two. I expect you'll see similar (but smaller) differences between your Cimbali and Compak grinders.

There's no guarantee that you're going to get within 0.5gm of your set point every time.

Some will be high, some will be low. I took the "worse case" range to arrive at 1.4 grams. Your measurements over the course of a day would be more representative. I only measured a half-dozen doses of the same coffee all within minutes of each other and there's not enough data points to calculate a meaningful standard deviation. I think it would be more precise for doubles if it was adjusted to grind in one run instead of the start/stop of two singles, but I haven't confirmed it.

[MellowCat]

Has Cimbali done any redesign of the grinder throat with the Max Hybrid?
I know from the Cimbali Junior that there is not a clear path for the beans going down into the grind chamber and quite a few get caught on a ledge above the chamber. Wondering if this is still the case?

I recall seeing a modification to address this issue a while back, but I'm not sure what the current state is.

[jesawdy]

Has Cimbali done any redesign of the grinder throat with the Max Hybrid? I know from the Cimbali Junior that there is not a clear path for the beans going down into the grind chamber and quite a few get caught on a ledge above the chamber. Wondering if this is still the case?

No it is still the same. Beans do get hung on the grind adjustment ring.

I recall seeing a modification to address this issue a while back, but I'm not sure what the current state is.

Link and link (see Mod 3).

[Ken Fox]

Has Cimbali done any redesign of the grinder throat with the Max Hybrid?
I know from the Cimbali Junior that there is not a clear path for the beans going down into the grind chamber and quite a few get caught on a ledge above the chamber. Wondering if this is still the case?

I recall seeing a modification to address this issue a while back, but I'm not sure what the current state is.

No, this has not changed, although there may be a tad less room in there since they had to fit in a mixed burr set, into the body of a Junior which normally has only a planar set.

To me, this is a silly non-issue for anyone using these grinders (includes the Max, Cadet, and Jr.) in a "normal" fashion. By "normal fashion," I mean someone who leaves the grinder in one place and puts one type of beans in the grinder, uses them up, then puts either the same thing or another type of beans in there afterwards. In this, "normal" usage scenario, an occasional bean WILL pass through the small circumferential opening and will end up ultimately in either the body of the grinder, or more likely, just on top of the plastic burr adjustment scale part that rests on top of the burrs.

When it comes time to either clean out the grinder or change burrs, one will find a few beans in there. I have never found more than half a handful of beans inside of a Cimbali grinder when I have opened it up, even after years of use. The passage of the beans past this slit is a "one-way trip." By this I mean, they are not going to re-pass back into the grinder throat and get ground up with your fresh coffee at a later date. This is an aesthetic issue that effects many commercial grinders out there, not just Cimbalis, and in my opinion is of no real consequence, but then, home users obsess about all sorts of things.

There is also a very small "shelf" on top of the conical burrs in the grinder throat, just barely below the hopper, where a bean or two might lodge itself (this shelf does not "communicate"with the inside of the grinder). Every time I change beans I run a chopsitck around the top of the conical burrs to dislodge any beans resting up there and typically I find ONE, maybe TWO. This is simply part of my mini cleaning ritual each time I change beans, which includes using a chop stick in the chute coming from the grinder chamber into the doser, and using a grinder brush or small vacuum in the doser itself.

Now, you can increase the amount of beans that will get inisde the machine by doing such things as moving the grinder around and tipping it over when it is full of beans, or trying to use it in some hacked fashion to change coffees several times a day, a usage pattern that all these Cimbali grinders (and I would say most if not all other commercial grinders) are ill-suited for in any event.

ken

[CGP4]

I received a few questions about the Max Hybrid offline, but I thought I'd post responses here for the benefit of all. Jeff and Ken already responded to hopper/throat questions. I, personally, don't care for filling the hopper per shot for any grinder, but this practice definitely doesn't fly with Cimbali grinders. And, as Ken said, he amount of beans that might get trapped around the throat is minimal -- certainly not enough to ever amount to a waste issue (the doser sweeps so clean, that there is much less waste than any Mazzer, even with 2-3 beans living above the burrs).

As to taste differences, I find it hard to directly attribute characteristics to my various grinders when so many variables come into play in a cup of espresso. The Mazzer Mini I started with was certainly no slouch, and my Cimbalis have not appreciably upped the number of godshots; however, I do believe the quality of my average shot has improved. I don't feel that the flavor characteristics of my familiar blends are any different (some have discussed either separation or, alternatively, roundness of flavors), but I feel like the yield of good-to-great shots has increased. Building a good shot is just easier. I can say that I felt that there was a bigger step up in quality and consistency going from my Mazzer Mini to Cimbali Junior than there has been going from the Junior to the Max Hybrid. There's been a definite improvement in the Max Hybrid over the Junior, but less pronounced. (As an aside, after making the switch, I can't believe anyone buys a Mazzer Mini or Macap M4 over the Cimbali Junior. The Junior's larger burrset and more powerful motor makes a huge difference. I believe part of the bias toward the Mazzer/Macap path stems from CoffeeGeek's influence. I emailed Mark Prince several months ago to ask why the Cimbali Junior wasn't in the running for his editor's choice awards, and his reply was that he had never tried one. I found it eye-opening that such an influential site could nominate product winners without sampling all the competition! I think the overview on H-B, and the performance in the "Can It Beat the Robur" thread, is a great testament to the Junior and Max, respectively.)

Back to the topic, I would definitely recommend the Max Hybrid and would repeat my upgrade path without regret, but I don't think the Max Hybrid is twice the grinder of the Cimbali Junior by any means (although I do think it is twice the Mazzer Mini). To a certain extent, I've drunk the conical burr kool-aid, and there's no conical grinder as compact and affordable as the Max Hybrid; in that respect, it's in a class by itself. For someone making the plunge into a high-end grinder, or upgrading from a Rocky-class grinder, I'd take a hard look at skipping straight to the Max Hybrid if you can afford it. If you already have a Mazzer Mini or Macap M4, it's tougher to justify -- but I still think it's a worthwhile investment. It'll certainly make a bigger improvement than trading between one E-61 machine to another. With the way the dollar/euro exchange is going, and the generally high costs of manufacturing in Europe, the Mazzers and Macaps are now nudging to $550, and perhaps up. The $795 for the Max Hybrid is a very reasonable price, in my opinion; if you can't get there, though, I think the Cimbali Junior is the best bang-for-the-buck grinder out there (and would be a nice upgrade from your Pasquini).