Matching Cups and Single Origin Beans

[KarlSchneider]

Does anyone else enjoy pairing specific cups and specific styles of espressi?

This week I am tasting two home roasted Yemeni roasts -- an Ismaili Hirazi and a Sana'ani. I find that I like these roasts in thin cups. My best match so far is in Illy Pistoletto cups made by Rosenthal. They are the thinnest I have. Even the "Oreo" handle is thinner than my Ginori Illy cups and my Illy IPA cups. The walls of the cup itself are also thinnest.

By contrast I like heavy Brazil espressi in the thickest cups. Dan K. often uses his Nuova Point cups (both La Marzocco and generic brown) and they are the thickest I know and always get Brazil's.

The question is similar to the Riedel wine glass matches with specific wines -- which I enjoy daily.

I also find my tulip shaped cups go better with more volatile (aromatic) espressi from Ethiopia.

KS

[187]

Karl, I didn't need this Now you have unearthed a whole new layer of espresso minutia I have been selecting thru some sort of auto response to the bean or blend of the day. I think now the you've thrown down the gauntlet. We must quantify and substantiate the choice of cup. We may be approaching espresso meltdown. I'm going to have a PNG double enjoy my lunch, go to the barn and see my sheep(they are very calming) and try not to think about this until tomorrow.

[KarlSchneider]

Karl, I didn't need this Now you have unearthed a whole new layer of espresso minutia I have been selecting thru some sort of auto response to the bean or blend of the day. I think now the you've thrown down the gauntlet. We must quantify and substantiate the choice of cup. We may be approaching espresso meltdown. I'm going to have a PNG double enjoy my lunch, go to the barn and see my sheep(they are very calming) and try not to think about this until tomorrow.

Dear 187,

I just had lamb for dinner along with a fine Bordeaux. Just to confuse things I had 3 Yemeni espressi in heavy, thick-walled Nuovo Point cups. This was week-old roasted beans and they are getting to the "you can call old beans anything you want " stage. Yemen for sure but not much beyond that in terms of clarity of flavor.

Do not worry. Most will dismiss this thread. But if you are at all intriqued you should experiment for yourself.

KS

[Walter]

Oh Karl, dont'cha do that again...

You've had me start homeroasting and set me on the path to SOs and thanks to you I will probably never ever again be able to enjoy a cup of Espresso elsewhere or buy pre-roasted beans...

And now this...

Some years ago we too started to buy various types of Riedel glasses for various beverages simply because we were fascinated by the thought of a "glass that matches the beverage". But now, several years later, much has changed, the only glasses which still regularly serve the beverage they were designed for are the Grappa and Water glasses. And occasionally the Chianti/Chardonnay. But the Single Malt glasses have been retired - quasi for good - because Single Malts develop much better in the Cognac glasses, we have no longer any wines which taste well in the Rheingau glasses, instead practically all white wines are either served in the Chardonnay or occasionally in the Reisch glasses which have replaced the Riedel Bordeaux Gran Cru because of their - IMHO - much better look and feel. And most red wines are served in those as well...

I guess we are back to simpletons, regarding taste. Meanwhile I prefer a good Cabernet Franc or Merlot or a Tazzelenghe or occasionally some Merlot/Cabernet Sauvignon cuvees over a Bordeaux virtually anytime and since we are very fond of fish and seafood, we now consume more white wines than red ones. While I couldn't really enjoy white wines until a few years ago, I have come to love them now. But here again we enjoy mostly the wines of Friuli/Venezia Giulia most often from the not widely known autochtone vines of that region like Ribolla Gialla, Tocai Friulano, Verduzzo, Malvasia, Picolit or the other peculiar vines like Traminer aromatico, Pinot Grigio a.s.o. I have yet to come across any French white wines which could match these peculiar, excellent tasting wines of Italy's North-East.

Basically it's the same with cooking. My wife and I love to cook, but here again it's "simplicity" which gives us the greatest pleasure. The main focus is on the quality of the ingredients and a little creativity which brings forth the excellent flavours of good, fresh ingredients, not the bag of tricks of the Chef which IMO more often than not suppresses and masks the peculiarity of the ingredients. Jamie Oliver has been a great inspiration for our cooking some years ago...

Thus I see the recent development which brought me to homeroasting and to beginning to explore the vaste multitude of SO coffees as a logical consequence of these preferences. Simple does it...

So, will I begin trying various SOs in various cups? Maybe, it's woth a shot...

[187]

I am intrigued, but the first reading of your post was overload, I have spent the weekend reflecting on what the results of auto selection have been over the past since I didn't want to cloud my recollections of the past with future thoughts. I do recall that when I use my illy italian faces I pick the brighter ones when I am upbeat and that when I feel a little bland I pick the all blue one with the faint faces. I also recall that of the two minimalia I have, the red cross and the gold one, I pick the white and gold for the so's with less complex tastes and that the red one seems to appear in my hand when I have a so with complex tastes or when I am drinking a sturdy blend. I think that whenever I say to myself "this is really good" I always have the most brilliant of the italian faces.

[KarlSchneider]

I am intrigued, <snip>
I do recall that when I use my illy italian faces I pick the brighter ones when I am upbeat and that when I feel a little bland I pick the all blue one with the faint faces. I also recall that of the two minimalia I have, the red cross and the gold one, I pick the white and gold for the so's with less complex tastes and that the red one seems to appear in my hand when I have a so with complex tastes or when I am drinking a sturdy blend. I think that whenever I say to myself "this is really good" I always have the most brilliant of the italian faces.

You are actually adding a dimension I did not think about. I was thinking only of the physical qualities of the feel of the cup matching SO styles. You are talking about visual appearance. I can see that match too. Those wonderful Faces cups you have are I think made by Mitterteich. I guess they are thinner than the IPA Illy cups but less thin than Illy Rosenthal. I have one Illy Mitterteich cappa cup but no Illy Mitterteich espresso.

I have a standard sequence of cups I use as a coffee ages in those first 6-7 days. I start with a thick-walled simple cup such as Intelligentsia pre-Black Cat espresso (d'Ancap) and move to more elegant cups such as Vivace Tognana and then old Ginori Lavazza (tulip) cups or the thinner Illy's as the flavors emerge into full complexity.

KS

[KarlSchneider]

Oh Karl, dont'cha do that again...

You've had me start homeroasting and set me on the path to SOs and thanks to you I will probably never ever again be able to enjoy a cup of Espresso elsewhere or buy pre-roasted beans...

And now this...

Some years ago we too started to buy various types of Riedel glasses for various beverages simply because we were fascinated by the thought of a "glass that matches the beverage". But now, several years later, much has changed, the only glasses which still regularly serve the beverage they were designed for are the Grappa and Water glasses. And occasionally the Chianti/Chardonnay. But the Single Malt glasses have been retired - quasi for good - because Single Malts develop much better in the Cognac glasses, we have no longer any wines which taste well in the Rheingau glasses, instead practically all white wines are either served in the Chardonnay or occasionally in the Reisch glasses which have replaced the Riedel Bordeaux Gran Cru because of their - IMHO - much better look and feel. And most red wines are served in those as well...

I guess we are back to simpletons, regarding taste. Meanwhile I prefer a good Cabernet Franc or Merlot or a Tazzelenghe or occasionally some Merlot/Cabernet Sauvignon cuvees over a Bordeaux virtually anytime and since we are very fond of fish and seafood, we now consume more white wines than red ones. While I couldn't really enjoy white wines until a few years ago, I have come to love them now. But here again we enjoy mostly the wines of Friuli/Venezia Giulia most often from the not widely known autochtone vines of that region like Ribolla Gialla, Tocai Friulano, Verduzzo, Malvasia, Picolit or the other peculiar vines like Traminer aromatico, Pinot Grigio a.s.o. I have yet to come across any French white wines which could match these peculiar, excellent tasting wines of Italy's North-East.

Basically it's the same with cooking. My wife and I love to cook, but here again it's "simplicity" which gives us the greatest pleasure. The main focus is on the quality of the ingredients and a little creativity which brings forth the excellent flavours of good, fresh ingredients, not the bag of tricks of the Chef which IMO more often than not suppresses and masks the peculiarity of the ingredients. Jamie Oliver has been a great inspiration for our cooking some years ago...

Thus I see the recent development which brought me to homeroasting and to beginning to explore the vaste multitude of SO coffees as a logical consequence of these preferences. Simple does it...

So, will I begin trying various SOs in various cups? Maybe, it's woth a shot...

Gruss Walter!

I fully admit to hoping a few will follow my aesthetic wanderings. You are a great companion on these Holzwege.

I have many Riedel glasses and use them daily. I tend to agree with you that the notion of matching specific glasses to specific wines is just a bit over-drawn. But the glasses themselves are nice. The stems are a bit too crude ( I can feel the ridges of the mold in my fingers) but the bowls are good. I use the Zinfandel daily (and never for Zinfandel).

I just had still too heavy Brazil espressi in slightly heavy Cafe Vivace/Tognana cups and the harmony was rather good. Unless this Brazil opens I will stay with thick cups.

KS

[HB]

A funny thing happened this morning. I was pulling single orgin shots and reached for a demitasse atop the espresso machine. My hand naturally gravitated towards one the heaviest cups:


Made by Nuovo Point

At the last moment, I thought, "Hmm-m, that illy Pen set looks more delicate, which would compliment this espresso nicely." And it did. Thanks Karl.

[peacecup]

Karl et al.,

How about the shape of the cup, e.g., the volume, the diameter of the opening and the height? These factors have become very important to me since I began pulling 3/4 oz. solos with my Ponte Vecchio - as I've said before, there is nowhere to hide in such a small volume, and anything that affects the flavor is magnified. I have a few different shapes that I use, and I'll try to post photos of these when I can. I've found a very tall, narrow, and thick-walled 2-oz demitasse that holds heat and crema, and thin-walled 3-oz cups that maximize aroma.

I was pouring most of my solos in standard 2-oz. demitasses (Italian, maker unknown) before my wife got me a pair of 3-oz. cups (Crate & Barrel, made in China) for my birthday. When I first began to use the 3-oz. cups at home the shot looked a little forlorn sitting at the bottom of the cup. But I had the feeling that I was enjoying something new in these espressi. Shortly thereafter I saw a presentation (not coffee-related) on human olfaction by a Braziallian scientist, and it struck me why I liked the larger cups - my whole nose fits in the cup when I sip (no small feat), so I have more of the coffee aroma to enrich the taste. Then there is the fact the larger cup acts to hold the aroma within it. Very interesting. Since then I've taken to experimenting more with cups. For example, I just pulled a doppio Yemen Moka Rimy on my Estro pump (forgive me) at the office, but instead of pouring it in a demitasse I used a 6-oz. cup. Again I found I loved having that broad opening over which to savor the aroma, and, for a time at least, I was transported to the far-off birthplace of coffee.....

Peace,

PC

[KarlSchneider]

A funny thing happened this morning. I was pulling single orgin shots and reached for a demitasse atop the espresso machine. My hand naturally gravitated towards one the heaviest cups:

<image>
Made by Nuovo Point

At the last moment, I thought, "Hmm-m, that illy Pen set looks more delicate, which would compliment this espresso nicely." And it did. Thanks Karl.

Hey Dan,

This pic is precisely the cup I was thinking about above. I know you also have the same cup in white w/ a La Marzocco logo.

I am pleased you also find a match that sings.

KS

[KarlSchneider]

Karl et al.,

How about the shape of the cup, e.g., the volume, the diameter of the opening and the height? These factors have become very important to me since I began pulling 3/4 oz. solos with my Ponte Vecchio - as I've said before, there is nowhere to hide in such a small volume, and anything that affects the flavor is magnified. I have a few different shapes that I use, and I'll try to post photos of these when I can. I've found a very tall, narrow, and thick-walled 2-oz demitasse that holds heat and crema, and thin-walled 3-oz cups that maximize aroma.

I was pouring most of my solos in standard 2-oz. demitasses (Italian, maker unknown) before my wife got me a pair of 3-oz. cups (Crate & Barrel, made in China) for my birthday. When I first began to use the 3-oz. cups at home the shot looked a little forlorn sitting at the bottom of the cup. But I had the feeling that I was enjoying something new in these espressi. Shortly thereafter I saw a presentation (not coffee-related) on human olfaction by a Braziallian scientist, and it struck me why I liked the larger cups - my whole nose fits in the cup when I sip (no small feat), so I have more of the coffee aroma to enrich the taste. Then there is the fact the larger cup acts to hold the aroma within it. Very interesting. Since then I've taken to experimenting more with cups. For example, I just pulled a doppio Yemen Moka Rimy on my Estro pump (forgive me) at the office, but instead of pouring it in a demitasse I used a 6-oz. cup. Again I found I loved having that broad opening over which to savor the aroma, and, for a time at least, I was transported to the far-off birthplace of coffee.....

Peace,

PC

PC,

After reading your comment here I decided to follow your lead. Tonight I used an Illy Collection "Il Ballo di Cafe" cappuccino cup (made by Mitterteich with thin sides and a thin "Cheerio" handle) for what you call a solo. I had never done this before. I have to say the result was delightful. One can get one's nose into the perimeter of the cup while sipping. I am not sure yet that I prefer the cappa cup to the espresso cup but I love the experiment. Grazie!

KS

[KarlSchneider]

187, Walter, Dan, Peacecup,

Reading Hugh Johnson's new book today (A Life Uncorked) I found the following...

Hugh is quoting Pierre Poupon from Burgundy ...

"Who has felt the incomparable soaring of this internal joy (at the taste of a great wine), and not wanted to reveal to other people that such hapiness exists."

Some readers of HB get such internal joy from restoring classic machines, others get this joy from re-engineering their machines and still others find it in themselves at the taste of a perfectly roasted SO at its peak or from the harmony between one cup and the espresso within.

Each of us hopes others might also come to feel the joys we do.

KS