Making sense of todays session...Long shots less harsh?

[TimEggers]

Well I'm at it again. Today I am using beans from a local roaster (not black cat).

Goal: I am trying to reduce and eliminate the harshness in my doubles.


Results: Limited success.


What I did:

WDT (a given)
14g dose by weight
level 35lb tamp, no pressure polish (weight of tamper only)
Long cooling flushes and shorter shots (thinking maybe I have been over extracting)
Attempted to go more by color and texture of flowing espresso than readout on timer



What I saw:

The espresso appeared evenly across the bottom of the basket (5-7 seconds after starting pump), starting at the outer rim then quickly coming to the center. It was deep black and rich looking. This would drop into cup for a few seconds. Then a stream would come together and as it began to stripe. The cone was tight and still in the center of the basket. I would stop the shot as the flow lightened up and the stripes diminished. Shots of 1.5 oz approx. in 20-30 seconds (give or take).


What I tasted:

Harshness. Sheer harshness without any other flavors. My shots are just harsh. I don't know how else to explain it. I did however have one shot that had chocolate behind the harshness. So I am tempted to keep trying.


What surprised me:

I finally got to the point (out of frustration) where I just ran my machine until my 2oz shot glass was full. At the end of the pull the flow was light colored (blonded I'm sure) and thin. I knew it had to taste like crud, but I sipped anyway. IT WASN'T HARSH AT ALL! Why is that. It had a subtle flavor without harshness. The beans are a little old, but the shot had very little of that harsh flavor. I didn't sense much chocolate, but it was the most pleasant shot of the day. What in the world is going on here? I broke every rule I have ever read and the results were the best of the day.

All I want to do is get rid of the harshness in my shots. I read of others finding chocolate, caramel and a world of other flavors, why can't I find them? One shot of mine had chocolate beneath the harshness. Something is wrong here. Any guesses?

Here is an example of todays session (a bad looking pull, but an ok flavor, I think this was the chocolate shot):

[TimEggers]

Tim-

Your shot looks pretty good for the most part. As you noted a small center dead spot. When the shot started, you had a slight donut, with it starting at the outside and moving to the center. You may have had a bit more coffee in the middle, used a convex with a heavier tamp in the center, or compression of the puck from the screen/screw.

As to the harshness, you might try to to let the first few dribbles go into the drip tray instead of the cup.

I followed Jeff's advice (from another discussion) and it completely removed the harshness. I pulled the best darn shot of my life. The shot was creamy, sweet chocolate with a nice mouth feel. The beans are a little old, so the complexity wasn't there, but it was truly pleasant and quite remarkable. Truly a wake-up moment in my HB career (if you can call it that). I have finally overcome the hurdle I have battled for the entire length of my home espresso making.

I can't wait for my Black Cat to get here now!

[jesawdy]

Tim-

Jim, Abe and Dan can speak to the sensory stuff WAY better than me, as can many others here I am sure. My guess is the first of your shot was a bit bitter from fines and/or high temperature at the start of the shot.

A fun thing to do, and to help you explore the shot's extraction a bit more, is to split a shot into thirds. I would actually recommend that you split into 4 parts and overextract the shot. Line up 4 shot glasses or cups (warmed preferably), shoot for a proper shot in 25-30 seconds, pull the first 8-10 seconds or first third in the first cup, next third in the second cup, final third in the third cup, and for kicks another 10 seconds or so in the fourth cup.

Taste each individually and see what you think of each.... take notes, and report back. I'm not gonna tell you what you'll find out as to not influence your opinion .

[TimEggers]

Jeff that's a very good idea to really further my understanding of the shot. Sadly I'm plum out of beans! Man I put in a 4+ hour jam session today and had a lot of espresso.

I'm simply happy that I am finally making good shots. God shots? No. But very enjoyable shots. I took a big step forward today from a noob without a clue, to a noob without a clue but with tasty espresso!

[TimEggers]

Just another question:

I don't knock after my initial tamp (or at all) so I have coffee grounds on the sides of the basket after my full tamp and non-pressure polish. Could those loose grounds be the source of the harshness?

I have avoided knocking for fear of disrupting the puck. Should I be doing something different?

[starry]

Tim, I'm a noob too. For my own education here, I would like to understand this a bit more. In the second post you mentioned that you took some advice and got the best shot of your life, but it's a bit unclear in the quote (at least to me) just what the advice was that helped you so much. Can you clarify please?

[TimEggers]

Tim, I'm a noob too. For my own education here, I would like to understand this a bit more. In the second post you mentioned that you took some advice and got the best shot of your life, but it's a bit unclear in the quote (at least to me) just what the advice was that helped you so much. Can you clarify please?

Oh of coarse! I let the first few drops (or about 3 seconds of flow) go into the drip tray. I started collecting the shot in my shot glass as it began to show striping. Give it a shot (no pun intended) and see what you think!

[starry]

I'll sure give it a try. Seems amazing that so much bitterness could come from 10% of the shot. Amazing!

[HB]

Here is an example of todays session (a bad looking pull, but an ok flavor, I think this was the chocolate shot):

That was almost a choked shot - it beaded in six seconds but nearly stalled for 17 seconds. I would expect it to have a very harsh, bitter, metallic edge on it (imagine a chocolate flavored aspirin). A coarser grind would help, but reducing the dose may be even better. Some espresso machines respond to overdosing by "stalling" like your video showed. Dumping the dark bitters would rescue the shot from the sink, but better to get an even extraction from the start.

[TimEggers]

That was almost a choked shot - it beaded in six seconds but nearly stalled for 17 seconds. I would expect it to have a very harsh, bitter, metallic edge on it (imagine a chocolate flavored aspirin). A coarser grind would help, but reducing the dose may be even better. Some espresso machines respond to overdosing by "stalling" like your video showed. Dumping the dark bitters would rescue the shot from the sink, but better to get an even extraction from the start.

Dan your observations are spot on. My shots after this one were corrected with a smaller dose (back to my usual 14g by weight technique). The shot in the video was overdosed (18g if I recall). The flavor was harsh indeed, but did have a little chocolate. Something I pulled out of the shot beautifully in later shots. I am still working on getting the striping from the very start, but until then I am happy to dump start the ugliness at the very beginning (if I really have too). My good shots today had only a very brief moment of black beading (about 3 seconds with no stalling). Then as it striped I caught it. Yes it's a work in progress...

Tips for avoiding the black beginning all together? Smaller dose? Lighter tamp? Coarser grind (I hesitate here as the cone may become too lose...that even a problem)?

So many questions so little time!

Thanks again!

[HB]

Tips for avoiding the black beginning all together? Smaller dose? Lighter tamp? Coarser grind (I hesitate here as the cone may become too lose...that even a problem)?

I don't fuss with the tamp. The shape of the piston sometimes makes a difference, but nothing that would explain away the dark, bitter edge you're describing. That leaves grind, dose, and of course brew temperature. A bottomless extractions that start super dark and then correct says "brew temperature is initially too hot" to me. The telltale sign in a spouted extraction is an oily, dark crema ring.

[TimEggers]

I don't fuss with the tamp. The shape of the piston sometimes makes a difference, but nothing that would explain away the dark, bitter edge you're describing. That leaves grind, dose, and of course brew temperature. A bottomless extractions that start super dark and then correct says "brew temperature is initially too hot" to me. The telltale sign in a spouted extraction is an oily, dark crema ring.

Most interesting Dan as for these shots I flush cool water through the group (porta removed) until the heater light goes out (Gaggia Coffee Deluxe) and then for another 5 or 6 seconds. Can't imagine brew temp being the problem (unless there is something wrong with my machine it was a refurb after all). Line voltage going in is 120 if that makes any difference.

I could adjust the grind (Rocky doserless), but then the cone becomes loose. I have thought this to be described as less desirable. Would a loose cone be better than an initial black flow? I suppose I could down dose a bit more and see where that puts me...

Perhaps I need to check brew temps or proper machine function (email WLL)?

[TimEggers]

I think I have figured it out (or at least I know what I want to try tomorrow).

My problem: too much headspace post tamp

Why: I have been dosing 14g by weight but using a very fine grind. After tamping the basket is barely half full. Yeah the grind is that fine. This may explain my initial black madness.

Tomorrow: I'm going to try a coarser grind that will allow the basket to fill, WDT, then level and tamp to 35lbs. I want to have the proper headroom post tamp this will be my goal. With the coarser grind I should (I think...oh boy...here I go) be able to more fill the basket yet not use too much coffee and avoid (hopefully) over extraction.

In short: Adjust grind to allow filling of basket, leveling without tap settling and tamping to 35lbs in hopes to get proper headspace. Adjust grind as needed via shot performance/taste.


Question: With my Gaggia double, I should be able to fill the basket and if my grind is "proper" I shouldn't be able to get much more than 14g or so in it (without a tap to settle grounds), correct? I tried a full, then level, then tamp thing today and then weighed the basket. A whopping 20g of coffee! Yikes! I was doing several taps to settle the grounds while filling the basket! That's it, that's my flaw. Dan I have read that you do this once or so to overdose, turns out I have been doing this thinking it was helping distribution what I wasn't realizing is that it was also allowing me to add way too much coffee to the basket! "ding ding"

The pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together in my mind as I try new things. I really appreciate all your help guys and this great community. This sure is a lot of fun!

Here is my 20g double :

[HB]

With my Gaggia double, I should be able to fill the basket and if my grind is "proper" I shouldn't be able to get much more than 14g or so in it (without a tap to settle grounds), correct? I tried a full, then level, then tamp thing today and then weighed the basket. A whopping 20g of coffee! Yikes! I was doing several taps to settle the grounds while filling the basket!

It's not precise because coffees have different densities, but volume dosing is consistent. La Marzocco, Faema-style, Cimbali double baskets etc. all yield very near 14 grams when gently dosed without tapping and then level cut. I updose by tapping once or twice slightly past the mid-fill point; you can change the updose amount by tapping earlier / later. Recently I've been gathering data for Andy's brewing ratios, so all the baskets are weighed. Generally the optimal headspace is in the 16-18 grams range for the coffees I use.