Looking to upgrade from Rancilio S24

[SteveM]

We currently have a Rancilio S24 in our home. We like the machine, but would like to move up a level or so. I think the S24 has a really small tank, and we are always filling it. Thus, I want either a larger tank or one that is plumbed in. I don't have a problem with running a 220 line, if needed. I'm not crazy about a plumbed drain and would prefer a unit that did not need one. Mostly my wife and her friends drink milk drinks. Thus we want steam, and lots of it! I also hate the vibe pump.

In my dreams, I have pondered a LM 2 group. Actually, the biggest problem I have with that crazy idea is that I would need to have custom cabinetry work to hide the drain line, and alter a granite top for the drain. I've been told that there is a good chance that the granite would crack in the cabinet retrofit, and matching it would be an issue. I am also not sure about the trapless drain that is recommended.

Is there a machine out there that can meet my needs?
Steve

[zin1953]

Plumbed in: La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi.

Not plumbed in: Expobar Brewtus II

[HB]

We currently have a Rancilio S24 in our home. We like the machine, but would like to move up a level or so.

Compared to your current setup, does "move up" mean more than a direct plumb, rotary pump espresso machine?

I've not used the S24 (replaced by the Epoca), but on specs it looks to be a fully commercial machine with powerful steaming abilities (3.9L boiler). If you're satisfied with it apart from the vibe pump and pourover tank, have you considered modifying it? Converting it to direct plumb should be straightforward (especially if you go with a float valve). To kill the vibe pump noise, I "outboarded" mine to the cabinetry below. A little extreme, but at minimal cost and it's now as quiet as most rotary pump machines.

On the other hand, if you envision a new espresso machine, the Resources page lists a number of reviews under Buyer's Guide. I'm not suggesting that you limit your search to those, but reading at least the conclusions will give you a good idea of noteworthy considerations. That might help you narrow your choices down to say a one-group or two-group espresso machine.

[AndyS]

I want either a larger tank or one that is plumbed in. I don't have a problem with running a 220 line, if needed. I'm not crazy about a plumbed drain and would prefer a unit that did not need one.

I've always thought that a machine with plumbed in water supply but no plumbed drain was a disaster waiting to happen. Sooner or later you'll come home to find 1000 gal of water in your kitchen.

[miKe mcKoffee]

I've always thought that a machine with plumbed in water supply but no plumbed drain was a disaster waiting to happen. Sooner or later you'll come home to find 1000 gal of water in your kitchen.

Curious, why? If something internal sprang a leak the plumbed drain wouldn't help anyway.

[AndyS]

Curious, why? If something internal sprang a leak the plumbed drain wouldn't help anyway.

Right. But if the three way leaks, the drip tray will catch it. And, if you leave the machine with steam wand and hot water wand over the drip tray, leaks will be caught (if they're not too huge).

No guarantees, just a better safety margin.

[SteveM]

I thought the drains had a problem with getting clogged with grounds all the time unless they were 'trapless'. Can you have a drain without a trap?

[HAL9000]

I thought the drains had a problem with getting clogged with grounds all the time unless they were 'trapless'. Can you have a drain without a trap?

I've wondered about that too - how to keep sewer gas out without a trap. Would love to know how, for now I am draining into a bucket in part for this reason. I suppose you could simulate a small septic tank with a bucket and some hoses to let the grounds settle out before water reaches the trap, but maybe that would be a maintenance nightmare.

[HB]

I've wondered about that too - how to keep sewer gas out without a trap. Would love to know how, for now I am draining into a bucket in part for this reason.

How about tapping into the garbage disposal like dishwashers do? Or adding an empty filter housing directly beneath the espresso machine to act as large, easy-to-empty trap?

[HAL9000]

How about tapping into the garbage disposal like dishwashers do? Or adding an empty filter housing directly beneath the espresso machine to act as large, easy-to-empty trap?

Us country folk with septic systems don't generally use garbage disposals. Filter housing looks interesting, but I think it would be too small to prevent turbulence from getting the grounds into suspension. I think it would also be important to have outflow come from somewhere in the middle (height-wise) of the water to prevent sucking out any floating grounds.

The first two schematics on this page are pretty good:

http://www.agnr.umd.edu/users/wye...Miller/septic.html

[HB]

Filter housing looks interesting, but I think it would be too small to prevent turbulence from getting the grounds into suspension.

I doubt there's much turbulance. The biggest flow is during a flush or rinse, and that's only 4-6 ounces. It's more likely that the grounds will settle in the tubing / pipe leading to the filter housing than continue past that point.

[HAL9000]

The great thing about coffee-as-a-hobby is that it provides infinite opportunities for procrastination.

I've been thinking about this further. Home beer brewers need to remove sediment from the bottoms of their 5 gallon carboys periodically to prevent the dead yeast from imparting bad flavors. The primitive approach is to siphon the brew into a new carboy, leaving the sediment behind.

The more sophisticated way to do this is to buy a fermenting vat that looks roughly like a cyclone collector with a valve at the bottom. This way the valve can be opened to drain the yeast without disturbing the beer. Here's an example.

I wonder whether an inverted 2 liter soda bottle, fitted with a valve, and plumbed like a septic tank, would do the job?

[HAL9000]

It's more likely that the grounds will settle in the tubing / pipe leading to the filter housing than continue past that point.

If that were the case then wouldn't everyone's drain hoses be clogging up regularly?

[HB]

Sure, it can happen. I occasionally dump a large measuring cup full of hot water it to rinse any stragglers as part of flushing the boiler. Once in the last few years the line leading away from the driptray from La Valentina did clog. I blame that on the length of the horizontal run, which is longer than I would prefer, but necessary to avoid cutting into the countertop.

[aviad]

SteveM, please contact me in through the forum if you would like to sell your S24. Thanks.

[Mac_coffee]

Us country folk with septic systems don't generally use garbage disposals. Filter housing looks interesting, but I think it would be too small to prevent turbulence from getting the grounds into suspension. I think it would also be important to have outflow come from somewhere in the middle (height-wise) of the water to prevent sucking out any floating grounds.

How much coffee do you intend to dump down the drain?
I live in Maine and have a septic system, and before I got a knockbox I dumped full used portafilters down the drain. Before I got into espresso I used to dump all my coffee filter baskets down the drain also with no problems at all. In fact the coffee grounds act as little scrubbers and clean the fatty deposits that get on the inside of your drain pipes. I have never had a backed up drain in the 20 years I have lived in this house.

I just recently purchased a plumbed in Bricoletta and connected it into the drain with a dishwasher branch drain pipe like this one. http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/51-284-drain-plastic-tailpieces/dishwasher-branch-tailpiece-198382.aspx

I would not worry about a few grounds getting into your drain system.

[HAL9000]

I once had to disassemble the kitchen sink drain plumbing to the rough-in and use a snake to break up a humongous something buried deep in the stack. Almost didn't work due to angles involved, lots of cursing and swearing. Next step would have been to bust through the wall and replace the stack, so I am very careful about what gets down there now.

So maybe mine is a special case...