LM Basket Woes

[Grant]

OK..in another previous post, I mentioned how a curved tamper was showing an improved consistency in my shots. This issue is going to weird places lately, and I have run into some confusion...surely due to technique, but also due to some basket ignorance. I have since found that I have three different baskets I have been using, none of which I really can confirm the origin of/manufacturer etc. (though, I know one is a LM double). I have two baskets that have a ridge that prevents the tamper from going inserting too far. i.e. when the basket is empty and I place the tamper in the basket, it hits the ridges and the top of the tamper base is about level with the top of the basket lip. These two baskets are not the same though...one is slightly taller than the other. One of these I am sure is the basket that came with my rubber handled 15 degree LM portafilter.

I have another basket (which I have just realized seems to work much better than the other two in terms of consistency), which when empty and I insert the tamper, allows the tamper to insert much further before meeting resistance from the sides of the basket. The top of the tamper base when inserted into the empty tamper is about .75cm below the lip of the basket.

Anyways...to get rid of the basket variables and "standardize", I ordered two LM double baskets (MZ_107 LA MARZOCCO DOUBLE PORTAFILTER BASKET) from EPNW, and now have two baskets to work with that are identical. These two new baskets "feel" the same as the first two I mentioned, which only allow the tamper to insert as far as the ridges. This leads into my issue.

So...after a week or two of playing, I have found I am back to my inconsistency of the past IF I use the ridged LM double baskets. Can anyone suggest with the LM double baskets, after a tamp, where in the basket the level of grinds should be? Should the tamp bring the puck down into the slightly smaller diameter area just below the ridge? Should the puck (after the tamp), be packed and end up higher than the basket ridge? (i.e. should it hide the ridge).

As a test, going back to the "unknown" basket that allows the tamper to insert further into the basket, I am getting very consistent, rich shots. Going back to my "known" baskets, the LM doubles, I am getting very inconsistent, fast, early blonding shots.

Any suggestions would be appreciated...I will post some photo's ASAP....

Grant

[barry]

the actual dose is up to you, but you need to be consistent in that dose, and such dose needs to allow the tamper to work properly. if your tamper is striking against the basket as you tamp (in essence, tamping the basket instead of the coffee) then you have an incorrect dose for your setup or an incorrect tamper for your dose. personally, on a LM double basket, i like to have the coffee just obscuring the spring retention groove after tamping.

[malachi]

As with many things espresso, the LM double basket is less forgiving but when handled correctly (IMHO) results in better tasting espresso.

There are a million "work arounds" that people employ (ranging from using an under-sized tamper to doing complicated multi-level dose and tamp regimes to just not using the basket). If you want to get the best out of this particular basket, however, the best way to go is to get consistent with your dose. You have a more narrow window than you get from other baskets. So practice consistent dosing by breaking dosing down into its component pieces and executing each piece in exactly the same way and in exactly the same order each and every time.

[RapidCoffee]

I agree with Malachi about correct dosing but... I'll go a bit further and suggest that your tamper is incorrectly sized for your filter basket (or vice-versa). Ridgewise, some baskets are outies and others are innies (see related discussion here on CG). If you have an innie, the tamper should should not catch on the ridge, or it limits your ability to downdose. No such problems arise on outies.

The innie design probably permits the PF retaining spring to clamp the basket more securely. Otherwise an outie (or ridgeless) design seems preferable.

John

[skyryders90]

On a tangentially related note: I have a LM ridged double, but the holes on the bottom of the basket are not centered - they are skewed toward one side by 1-2mm. I can't seem to get a centered basket from anywhere. Would this result in uneven extractions?

[ECM]

Ok, let me give you my two cents worth. I think the best solution for you is to consider buying the LM ridgeless double basket from EPNW. I have been using this basket with my Giotto P now for about a year. It was a large learning curve for me coming off my stock double basket, but I am now making some beautiful shots with it. Because there is no ridge on the basket, the tamper does not get hooked up on the spring mount.

Best of Luck,

Rob
P.S. I just registered on this site. I am a huge CoffeeGeek fan and I am very excited I found this place.

[cannonfodder]

A LM ridged double basket and a 58mm Reg tamper do not get along very well. EPWNW lists them as a 57mm basket. If you want to use a standard 58mm tamp, you need to use the ridgeless LM baskets.

[HB]

I think the best solution for you is to consider buying the LM ridgeless double basket from EPNW. I have been using this basket with my Giotto P now for about a year. It was a large learning curve for me coming off my stock double basket, but I am now making some beautiful shots with it.

I'm surprised you preferred the stock Giotto Premium basket. Isn't it a 14 gram basket? Looking around my collection of photos from past reviews, I found this:


Giotto stock basket (left) and ubiquitous 18 gram Faema-style basket (right)

I never gave the Giotto's stock basket a serious look because I didn't want to complicate an already involved three-way espresso machine evaluation. Rummaging through my drawer, I count three other types of doubles: Faema style (above), LM with cinched waist, and what appears to be the LM ridgeless:


Ridgeless La Marzocco Double Portafilter Basket
(image courtesy of espressoparts.com)

Lately I've been alternating between the Faema style for ristrettos and the LM ridged baskets for full doubles. Not sure the ridgeless will behave the same as the ridged given it's narrower and the bottom edges are rounded instead of squared off. That's fine, I like to mix stuff up...

If you want to use a standard 58mm tamp, you need to use the ridgeless LM baskets.

I use the LM cinch-waist and dose to above the the retainer clip (around 17-18 grams) and never had a problem. It's true that you'd definitely clang metal if you want a true 14 gram dose. Is that what you're doing?

[another_jim]

The Giotto basket looks like the Faema "12 gram" I have; I only using it when I'm running out of coffee

[GRB]

As with many things espresso, the LM double basket is less forgiving but when handled correctly (IMHO) results in better tasting espresso.

Can you say what it is better than? Do you really mean this basket produces better tasting espresso than some other ridgeless double basket?

Ta,

GRB

[malachi]

Taste is subjective but yes, to my taste it does.

[cannonfodder]

I use the LM cinch-waist and dose to above the the retainer clip (around 17-18 grams) and never had a problem. It's true that you'd definitely clang metal if you want a true 14 gram dose. Is that what you're doing?

My HB tamper does not fit a stock LM basket as documented in my How To Cut Your Own Naked Portafilter thread. It quite literally has to be forced into the basket and then wiggled out. It will not even pass into the top of the basket without forcing it.


Photo of my HB tamper stuck in the standard LM basket

I have seen another thread where someone was having the same problem. If I use my generic 58mm tamp, it works because of the lower tolerances on a 'made in china' piston. So I kept the basket for use on my Isomac with the generic tamp.

I traded a couple of emails with Terry and Dave at EPWNW (which is where I ordered the baskets from). LM uses the 'worn stamping die' excuse and the problem is common enough that they list the stock LM basket as a 57mm not 58. So I ordered a couple of ridgeless and my HB tamp fits perfectly.

They offered to send me a couple of other baskets to see if one of the stock baskets would fit but I elected to go with a couple of ridgeless.

FYI, they contacted me when they saw the post with the problem before I had a chance to call them the next morning. Now that is customer service.

Almost forgot, I dose 17G doubles.

[cannonfodder]

As with many things espresso, the LM double basket is less forgiving but when handled correctly (IMHO) results in better tasting espresso.

I had fits with my ridgeless. I went from near perfectly even extraction to monstrosities like this...


So I doubled my concentration on technique and practice, practice and practiced some more. Now I am rewarded with shots like this from my Faema two group...


And they are darn tasty.

[HB]

My HB tamper does not fit a stock LM basket as documented in my How To Cut Your Own Naked Portafilter thread. It quite literally has to be forced into the basket and then wiggled out. It will not even pass into the top of the basket without forcing it.

I tried eight different tampers against three different LM baskets. The Bumper tamper would not pass on two of the three baskets and the Espressocraft tamper stuck on one of them. The Reg Barber / HB tamper caught on one of the three. The remaining five either bottomed out with little or no resistance. The TORR / Cafe Kultur tamper didn't even blink.

Apparently the definition of 58mm is subject to interpretation, even for stainless steel pistons sized on a precision lathe.

So I doubled my concentration on technique and practice, practice and practiced some more. Now I am rewarded with shots like this from my Faema two group...

Most excellent. Well, I should say that I prefer to see the moments before the cone develops to check for evenness rather than "center cut" glamour shots. Or better yet a video.

[GRB]

Taste is subjective but yes, to my taste it does.

These kinds of statements remind me of hifi forums (fora?) where they deliberately impose a "double blind free zone" so that "experts" can make totally unjustifiable statements about speaker cables, etc. without sceptics asking for double blind test results.

My observation is that HB generally emphasises objective discussion - it would be poorer for allowing these statements to go unchallenged.

Come on people! A LM ridgeless double basket makes coffee taste better than a non-LM ridgeless double basket? Maybe it's the shape of the holes? Eh?

GRB

[cannonfodder]

Actually, it is probably due to the shape and proportions of the basket which alters how the coffee is exposed to water and pressure. But I am not an espresso scientist, I just play one at home.

Can I tell a difference, no. But my skills as a barista are no where near Malachi's, nor is my sense of taste as developed. One day, years from now, who knows?

Some people are blessed with an acute sense of taste and can detect very small changes in flavor. There are professional taste testers that literally have their tongues insured for millions. Scientific fact my friend.

[cannonfodder]

I tried eight different tampers against three different LM baskets

And I thought I was living large with three different tampers and 4 baskets...

Most excellent. Well, I should say that I prefer to see the moments before the cone develops to check for evenness rather than "center cut" glamour shots. Or better yet a video.

Ya, I know, but that was the only photo I had. I have stopped taking photos of extractions unless there is a reason. After all, how many photos of naked extractions do I really need? Not every shot is as nice. Nothing is worse than taking a peek at the bottom of a shot just to get a jet channel in the face, or worse on a white shirt just before work.

Pretty or not, all that matters is taste. I even drink the bad shots. It helps to train my palate for defects. That way I know what an over extracted, under extracted, channeled, etc shot tastes like. An insight I picked up from Malachi some time ago.

[GRB]

Actually, it is probably due to the shape and proportions of the basket which alters how the coffee is exposed to water and pressure. But I am not an espresso scientist, I just play one at home.

What? The shape and proportion of a LM double basket is significantly different to another double basket? A lot of double baskets are very similar in shape... Next you'll be telling me that some guy can taste the difference between 9.2 and 9.3 bar brewing pressure.

Can I tell a difference, no. But my skills as a barista are no where near Malachi's, nor is my sense of taste as developed. One day, years from now, who knows?

I suspect you are selling yourself short. Is there any actual evidence for Malachi's claims?

Some people are blessed with an acute sense of taste and can detect very small changes in flavor. There are professional taste testers that literally have their tongues insured for millions. Scientific fact my friend.

I'd say it's just a fact. However unless it is backed up by objective testing it's not. Malachi claims his taste is subjective and that certainly is not scientific.

So is HB about scientific, verifiable and repeatable investigations in espresso or is it about something else?

GRB

[cannonfodder]

Don't know, maybe a better phrase would have been '...is maybe due...'. I am just an amateur learning as I go.

I do know in other applications that a very small change can yield a difference in performance. Sounds like this would make an interesting study.

[another_jim]

What? The shape and proportion of a LM double basket is significantly different to another double basket?

Yes.

Baskets vary from quite conical (wider at the top than the bottom) or cylindrical. LM baskets are completely cylindrical, even their two-step single baskets; Faema and Cimbali baskets are nearly cylindrical; and other baskets are more tapered.

LM baskets also have a slightly different shape of hole at the bottom; this, I think, may make more of a difference than the shape.

In any case, it doesn't take a double blind testing, since the difference is quite visible: LM baskets tend to start with a lighter flow, that stays nearly the same color throughout the shot; whereas Cimbali and Faema baskets tend to start very dark and lighten more. This is why many people prefer the LM for normales and the other two for ristretto shots. In barista competition, where even colored crema and normale shots are a must, LM baskets definitely will give the competitor an edge. This is also true when making beauty pictures of espresso shots or extractions.

Whether the difference would survive a double blind, blind-folded taste test (when, as the old cook school trick shows, most people can't tell rhubarb from calve's liver blindfolded), and how one could double blind test a basket (how many statisticians does it take to mount a PF?), are, in themselves quite fascinating questions.