Lever Yield Master List

[grong]

How much delicious espresso per pull? Please represent your machine!

Ponte Vecchio Lusso
1 pull--1/2 ounce, 15ml
2 pulls--1 ounce, 30ml

[timo888]

How much delicious espresso per pull? Please represent your machine!

Ponte Vecchio Lusso
1 pull--1/2 ounce, 15ml
2 pulls--1 ounce, 30ml

Thanks for this thread. Richard (espressme) refuses to believe me when I tell him that I drink my espresso from a thimble.

Regards
Timo

[peacecup]

This is a good idea. I'll second grong's volumes, adding 0.5 oz. per pull up to four, for the PV Export. I'll qualify by saying volume in the cup can vary somewhat depending on GDT (grind, dose, tamp).

I think you need to add a dry weight of coffee column to the table, so we can figure dose pe unit vol, and important component of taste.

PC

[peacecup]

BTW, the last few shots I've pulled have been "leaners": ground fine enough choke the PV spring, and requiring me to put my body weight over the machine and lean down on the piston to get a decent flow rate. This, of course, increases the pressure. I have to say these shots have been VERY tasty and crema-laden.

If I had a couple of grand and a lot of counter space I might opt for a spring-lever Conti with its coupled lever mechanism.


PC

[grong]

timo 888 writes

I tell him that I drink my espresso from a thimble.

Is that one pull or two to fill your thimble?


Quoting peacecup

I think you need to add a dry weight of coffee column to the table...

Okay!

Coffee dry weight for PV Lusso (Macap grinder)
delicious single basket: 8g
delicious double basket: 14g

[timo888]

Peppina

a) depress the lever and allow it to rise immediately: ~45mL
b) depress the lever, count to 20, then allow it to rise: ~50mL

Regards
Timo
P.S. This is gross volume of water from the shot with no coffee in the basket.
P.P.S. Not using original one-way washers in the piston cylinder and group but thin (1/16" and 1/32" respectively) very flexible nylon-reinforced EPDM washers, doubled up.

[timo888]

Do we have pics of the PV single and double baskets?

[grong]

PV baskets, next to an espresso cup for reference.




Thanks for the details on Peppina, timo888!

[espressme]

Peppina
a) depress the lever and allow it to rise immediately: ~45mL
b) depress the lever, count to 20, then allow it to rise: ~50mL
Regards
Timo
P.S. This is gross volume of water from the shot with no coffee in the basket.
P.P.S. Not using original one-way washers in the piston cylinder and group but thin (1/16" and 1/32" respectively) very flexible nylon-reinforced EPDM washers, doubled up.

45ml - 1.5oz.....BIG thimble! How much with 12gr coffee in double basket?

[grong]

espressme asks timo888:

How much with 12gr coffee in double basket?

Yes, we must know how much actual delicious espresso is produced per piston stroke.


espressme,

Perhaps you could represent Cremina with a report on Cleo? I for one would value this information.


Elektra?


With gratitude,

grong

[timo888]

espressme asks timo888:

How much with 12gr coffee in double basket?

Yes, we must know how much actual delicious espresso is produced per piston stroke.

You're attempting to eliminate some variables by specifying a cylindrical double basket and the dose. But the net yield of espresso from the gross volume of water will depend upon several additional factors as well:

dose
basket headroom after dose
depth of roast
age of roast
type of bean(s) and their ratio in the blend (if applicable)
grind
tamp
basket filter design
humidity
preinfusion

Unfortunately, the internet format does not allow for this kind of comparison to be made. We would all have to be in the same room using the same roast, grind, and tamp to arrive at a more telling comparison between machines.

An extreme example: this morning I overdosed the Cremina's taller single basket (the more radically conical one) with about 12g of fairly oily Black Cat (I don't remember BC being this oily in the past but my mind could be playing tricks on me) which had been ground too finely (a newly opened bag) and tamped at about 30#. I had to fight to get the shot which was all but stalled. The net yield was only 22ml. All other things being equal, if I were to loosen the grind and ease up on the tamp a little, the volume could jump to 35ml.

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

45ml - 1.5oz.....BIG thimble!

The volume would be ~5ml less if I were using a stiffer washer for the group one-way valve, which would prevent the trickle, and an additional ~5-10ml less if the one-way valve between piston and kettle were stiffer. FE-AR recommended short shallow pumping strokes in the user manual not only for purposes of preinfusion, but because the one-way washer below the kettle was fairly thick and stiff and didn't flex immediately in response to the upstroke of the piston. The 1/16" nylon-reinforced EPDM washers offer a more delicate diaphragm and correspondingly greater water flow. Also, the stiffer washer in the group allowed for air to be sucked through the group. The 1/32"-thickness EPDM group washers seal the group more effectively than the thicker stiffer OEM washer did, permitting a suction to develop on the upstroke, pulling more water down from the kettle. Finally, the thinner washers at the base of the kettle cleave to the ring of portholes on the downstroke, sealing them better than the OEM washer did; the OEM washer allowed a small amount of backflow from the piston chamber back into the kettle. Clean water, not backwash from the group, but that's water that doesn't make it out to the group. All of these factors combined result in greater volumes when using the replacement washers.

Regards
Timo
P.S. My supply of one-way washers for the piston cylinder is now depleted.

[grong]

timo888 said:

Unfortunately, the internet format does not allow for this kind of comparison to be made.

My curiosity is to find out typical lever yields by individuals with their machines, perhaps stating basket size and shape, and degree of roast, creating what they consider to be their average desirable cup. What size is your typical double? single? Do you achieve a double in one pull, or two? If one, how do you create a single? By pulling your cup away at a certain volume, at the first sign of blonding?

I typically roast to Full City or Full City+. With my cylindrical double basket holding 14g, I usually yield 30ml, in two pulls. In my tapered single basket holding 8g, I yield 15ml of espresso in one pull.

timo888, would it be fair to say that your Cremina yields 35ml of espresso in one pull, using 12g of Black Cat in a double basket, in a single pull? I could never get 35ml of espresso in a single pull on my machine on what I considered to be a representative shot--to get something similar I would use my double baset, 14g of coffee, and two pulls. This is a big difference. I am not implying that one is superior to the other, just wanted a rough feel as what to expect regarding volume given different machines. But perhaps I am over my limit of pulls already.

Again, thanks.

[timo888]

timo888 said:

Unfortunately, the internet format does not allow for this kind of comparison to be made.

My curiosity is to find out typical lever yields by individuals with their machines, perhaps stating basket size and shape, and degree of roast, creating what they consider to be their average desirable cup. What size is your typical double? single? Do you achieve a double in one pull, or two? If one, how do you create a single? By pulling your cup away at a certain volume, at the first sign of blonding?

I typically roast to Full City or Full City+. With my cylindrical double basket holding 14g, I usually yield 30ml, in two pulls. In my tapered single basket holding 8g, I yield 15ml of espresso in one pull.

timo888, would it be fair to say that your Cremina yields 35ml of espresso in one pull, using 12g of Black Cat in a double basket, in a single pull? I could never get 35ml of espresso in a single pull on my machine on what I considered to be a representative shot--to get something similar I would use my double baset, 14g of coffee, and two pulls. This is a big difference. I am not implying that one is superior to the other, just wanted a rough feel as what to expect regarding volume given different machines. But perhaps I am over my limit of pulls already.

Again, thanks.

I like variation and switch beans often, preferring lighter northern over darker southern roasts. I pull almost exclusively with the single basket, single pull.

I like to experiment with cooler water on the Peppina and the Caravel. One of the best shots I've had was at 195F with a bean from Terroir outside Boston.

Cremina: 40ml from single basket with 10g dose
Peppina: 30ml single basket with 7g dose
Caravel: 35ml with 10g dose

I often pull lungo on the Peppina and the Caravel, usually with S.O. beans.

Regards
Timo

[espressme]

espressme asks timo888:

How much with 12gr coffee in double basket?

Yes, we must know how much actual delicious espresso is produced per piston stroke.
With gratitude,
grong

espressme,
Perhaps you could represent Cremina with a report on Cleo? I for one would value this information.

Hi Grong and all!
In Cleo's favor I've had wonderful experiences since she moved in!
Well, this is my poor daily fare
With the testing of me and three different beans and roasts since I got her, for one pull, she consistently delivers very close to 28-30 ml in the cup. That's with a ten sec pre-infuse ( lever slowly up to top stop till drip in tray) One pull, Double basket, Approximately 12 grams, ground #4 above touch on a Rocky doserless. 20# tamp.

Here' local roasted Yirgh. 3rd day since roast.

shortly after pull.

let set for a minute or two.

I'm not using my single basket.
LaPeppina would give me about a 15 to 20ml pull into the cup using a similar technique. Still a very good brew!
My la Pav would do about 25 to 30ml for a pull. I never got the method of her, but will try again soon.
I am awaiting a PF gasket for the Enrico with its 55mm piston and 68mm basket. It looks to be a 40 -60ml shot at minimum.
I hope this adds to the confusion!
Sincerely
Richard

[grong]

timo888 and espressme,

Thank you for indulging me with such rich information.

Nice crema, espressme!

[peacecup]

There is not much I can add to this list - Timo has outlined the additional factors that affect volume, other than GDT. I think it is a very interesting subject. If you think about it PV users get a much higher coffee:water ratio than some of the other machines, which has to affect the flavor. Also, if we go for more volume we have a two or more pull pressure profile, which differs from other machines, and which also must affect flavor.

Perhaps karlschneider will chime in with data for the Elektra.

Once youve collected a little more data you could sum it up in a table and post it.

PC

[grong]

Yes, we have information on the following machines:

Peppina
Caravel
Olympia Cremina
la Pavoni
Enrico (projected)
Ponte Vecchio Export and Lusso

peacecup:

Perhaps karlschneider will chime in with data for the Elektra.

What other machines are we missing?

I think a chart is in order.

[peacecup]

La Cimbali
Faemina
Zerowatt
Bezzera (old group style, not the same as the current PV)
Olympia Club spring lever

[Alchemist]

What other machines are we missing?

I think a chart is in order.

The two Gaggia's come to mind. The Factory and Achilles.
And the Sama.

Chart? Fine idea. Make it so #1