Lever Yield Master List - Page 2

[timo888]

And I'd like to see the chart include basket shape variants and their capacities while we're at it.

Regards
TImo

[grong]

And I'd like to see the chart include basket shape variants and their capacities while we're at it.

How should we describe the basket styles? With a term to match a sketch on a reference chart of basket styles? A photo of basket shapes by users within this thread would be helpful.

Capacities: should this be amount in grams that the user typically packs into the basket, allowing for necessary headspace?

[timo888]

For capacity, how about weight in grams of unground beans required to fill the basket level, not heaping.

Shape can be given as follows:

Single:
overall height in mm
inner diameter at rim in mm
how many mm down from the rim does the conical taper begin
outer diameter of base

Double (cylindrical):
overall height in mm
inner diameter at rim in mm

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

The Peppina's single basket (conical) if filled level to the brim holds ~11g of unground beans. I normally dose 7g, which is the capacity of the Peppina's bakelite spoon.

Inner diameter at rim: 45mm
Height: 22mm
Taper begins 10mm down
Diameter of base: 35mm

The lip is flat, not arched, is 1mm thick, and the lip's ledge is 3mm wide.



Regards
Timo

[grong]

For capacity, how about weight in grams of unground beans required to fill the basket level, not heaping.

Still thinking this one through. The leveling method works great for my PV single. But the double basket is so tall and skinny that there is much compression at tamping time. A leveled double basket, once tamped, would leave excessive headspace. A fully heaping basket, tamped, leaves more than enough headspace. So, I feel that what amount is normally fitted into the basket, with reasonable distribution and tamping, could be a more meaningful, and accurate enough measurement. So for the single basket, a leveled basket measurement works for me.

Nice drawing, timo888. Very clear. Should it contain mm down from the rim whence the conical taper begins?

[timo888]

Still thinking this one through. The leveling method works great for my PV single. But the double basket is so tall and skinny that there is much compression at tamping time. A leveled double basket, once tamped, would leave excessive headspace. A fully heaping basket, tamped, leaves more than enough headspace. So, I feel that what amount is normally fitted into the basket, with reasonable distribution and tamping, could be a more meaningful, and accurate enough measurement. So for the single basket, a leveled basket measurement works for me.

Nice drawing, timo888. Very clear. Should it contain mm down from the rim whence the conical taper begins?

Yes, I forgot to add the 10mm measurement to the drawing where the taper begins and also the outer diameter below the rim.

On measuring basket capacity: there's two things we want to share, and the recommended dose tells us only one of them.

1) It is good to know a recommended dose for a given basket, understanding that the recommendation could vary with depth of roast, type of bean(s), fineness of the grind, force of the tamp, temperature, pressure.

2) But we also need to know the capacity of the basket in absolute terms. We need an objective measure. To measure the raw capacity of the basket, I suggested filling the basket with whole beans (unground) level to the brim, to see how much it holds, roughly, in absolute terms.

Regards
Timo

P.S. Is there a good European supplier of vintage baskets? (53mm and smaller?)

[grong]

timo888,

Sorry I misread your post about unground beans!

Absolute volume calculation suggestion: I asked my wife, who is a math person, if she could calculate the volume of the single basket easily. She suggested I fill it with water, and measure the water in a calibrated shot glass. Adhesive tape across the bottom of the basket seals the holes from leaking. This works great, and is probably more absolute than unground beans.

Basket shape: We could label your drawing of a basket with letters to designate the parts, then in a simple chart with the letters in one column, fill in the appropriate measurement. With this, we could reconstruct any basket shape, I think.


Best,

grong

[espressme]

timo888,
Sorry I misread your post about unground beans!
Absolute volume calculation suggestion: I asked my wife, who is a math person, if she could calculate the volume of the single basket easily. She suggested I fill it with water, and measure the water in a calibrated shot glass. Adhesive tape across the bottom of the basket seals the holes from leaking. This works great, and is probably more absolute than unground beans.

Basket shape: We could label your drawing of a basket with letters to designate the parts, then in a simple chart with the letters in one column, fill in the appropriate measurement. With this, we could reconstruct any basket shape, I think.
Best,
grong

Hello Grong,
There was an H-B thread a while back " Archimedes Challenge:"
http://www.home-barista.com/forums/post17432.html#17432
A few different methods of computing basket volume were suggested. And here would be a good place to use one that is compatible with all baskets. If it were salt or sugar, the brand and grind must be specified! Using unground beans as a volume dose may require a different amount for every bean type and roast(size,) basket diameter, depth and bottom radius. With the roasted beans I buy, that works for me. I can make up the variables through measuring container, grind and tamp.

And I'd like to see the chart include basket shape variants and their capacities while we're at it.

Regards
TImo

Hello Timo,

Remember 1cc =1ml. That is a difference of maybe .2mm or .008 on the measured inside radius of a deep straight sided 51mm basket!

How do we measure the height and degree of the angles and define the center of radius for the various radii of the various basket types????Their diameters at what points? Inside or outside? Whether the basket rolls over the top of the PF or is contained in and only the top edge contacts the group gasket? What about quantity, size, shape and pattern of perforations. Thickness of metal at various points of the basket? Let alone the simpler measurements of diameter, height of the basket itself or the level it is filled to (headspace.) What tools does everyone have at home to define the basket?
After reading many H-B threads, I can think of at least ten variables for basket definition which could make a difference in performance.


I would need to go into my toolboxes and get at least four relatively expensive tools and tool sets ( approximate total cost on the cheap=$350+) to do a fairly decent job of describing the outside geometry of any given basket. This could be a forever project.! I've worked at design drafting, tooling design and metrological fixture design for incoming parts inspection and such questions will make a huge difference in whether a part always fits or whether a supplier receives payment.

I am not being facetious. All these H-B thread efforts to get inter-machine variables down to absolute science waste everyone's energy and time. That time could be spent relaxed, enjoying a good "Cuppa"

Some useful opinions and future individual direction can come from looking at relative basket shape, size + tamp. BUT that is only a beginning of the experience of making good coffee.

It is like asking a centipede which leg moves when. Total confusion instead of a natural movement!

Nit-picking wastes the time and energy of others!

Each person will make decisions according to their taste and training. Another person and I get a very different resultant volume in cup using the same lever machine. I can grind the same roast with the my Rocky at the same setting, the same weight measured by triple beam balance into the same tared dry basket and use the exact same basket on two different machines side by side and get a totally different result in the cup and mouth.


Best regards to all!
richard

[timo888]

Richard,
If it would be a waste of your time, don't involve yourself in the enterprise. What could be simpler? No one's forced to contribute data.

But someone somewhere put a lot of thought into the shapes and dimensions of the baskets and into the ratio of filter surface area to volume, filter-surface-area to diameter, filter-surface-area to height, etc. I find their design choices interesting.

Also interesting to see when a manufacturer abandoned one basket shape for another. It's a hobby within a hobby... paleofilterbasketology.

Regards
Timo
P.S. Knowing the dimensions also helps you locate replacement baskets.

[mogogear]

Yes, we have information on the following machines:
EDITED- NOV 2007!
Peppina
Caravel
Olympia Cremina
la Pavoni
Enrico (projected)
Ponte Vecchio Export and Lusso

peacecup:

Perhaps karlschneider will chime in with data for the Elektra.

What other machines are we missing?

I think a chart is in order.

Missing........

Gaggia mini-
(Commercial)Gaggia Palanca -Bill
(Comercial)Faema- various - Paul?
Faemina-
Riviera- ?
(Commercial)Conti- Ok ,Richard!
Bezzera-Fullsack!
Zerowatt- Hbuchtel?
Bezzera- Zizx
La SanMarco- Danzela
(Comercial)Conti- Latte Jed
Olympia Club- Sneakymagic soon
Termozona- Hperry
Microcimbali-?
Microcasa A L- Karl and others
Gaggia Factory-? same as La PAvoni- Alchemist and others
(Commercial)Rancilio? I don't think anyone here has one
(Commercial)Astoria Lever-


Thats all I can think of that we are missing......

[Alchemist]

Just happen to run across this thread and figured I could at least update the couple I know.

Gaggia Factory, with a 20% pre-infusion pull and then full pull, 1-1.25 oz.

Gaggia Achille, also 20% pre-infusion pull and full pull, 1.75 - 2.00 oz. Standard 58 mm basket, 15 g coffee.