Lever multiple pull techniques - Page 4

[timo888]

I am only using the weight of the tamper with a slight push with my index finger . You are using a different machine than I so dosing will behave differently between the two, but what dose are you using? I was filling the basket to the top and simply leveling off the mound. That should be around 13.5 (give or take a few tenths) grams.

I may try dismissing the tamp all together and just thump the portafilter onto my tamping stand 3 times to settle the grounds and see what happens. The surface of the puck will be compacted by the shower screen when doing that.

I was using a smaller dose with the Lusso double basket, 10-11g. I pulled a single this morning with the Cremina using the steeply conical basket, filling only the lower portion, and no tamp but just a few taps of the basket on the countertop. Worked very well. I dose the baskets outside the PF.

Regards
Timo

P.S. With a fluffy grind, dosing level with the top of the basket works well too. If your tamper is heavy, just press down only 1/4 inch. The tampers Richard made for me, modelled on the tamper that shipped with Peppina, and very close to it in size, are much lighter than the larger weighted ironwood tampers Les makes. If I am using Les's tamper, I don't press down at all and even have to hold it back a little.

[cannonfodder]

I have been using the super fine grind and next to no tamp on both the Elektra and Gaggia Factory this week. I have tightened the grind down to the point my burrs are touching while experimenting. I am getting better results thanks to timo's tips. I am still getting better results from my Factory (non spring assisted) than I do from the Elektra.

I do notice a marked difference between the initial pull and the second pull. There is less resistance on the second stroke even with the super fine grind. The fine grind does reduce the difference between the two but it is still there. The difference between the shots on the Elektra and Gaggia may be due to my ability to vary the lever pressure and keep a consistent flow rate versus the Elektra's spring lever. It could also simply be the difference between the design of the two machines.

I find myself using the fine grind and light tamp with one and a half lever pulls when making a milk drink. The one and a half ounce shot it produces are still pretty good but for a straight espresso I still find myself preferring a longer preinfuse with a single lever pull. Maybe with time and practice my results will continue to improve.

[bill]

Normally you have to let the machine sit for a moment or two so it can depressurize. To get around this, I lift, or lower, the lever while removing the portafilter. This kind of debunks the idea that air is not sucked up through the puck with a second lever lift. By lifting, or lowering, the lever after a shot I can suck air back into the group which allows me to remove the portafilter right after a shot with no portafilter sneeze.

I've been using this technique since I read cannonfodder's post. It works great, but tonight I had an unusal experience. Lowered the lever a tad, removed the filter holder, and it was 'empty'. Looked up at the bottom of the group and the puck was stuck to the dispersion screen. Now I'm wondering what else besides air is being sucked back into the group. Anyone have any thoughts?

[cannonfodder]

If you raise it too much, you will suck the sludge out of the basket and into the group. I use a small raise on the lever. Around a quarter of the lever stroke is all I use. At worst, I get a small hiss when I pull the portafilter off. I have a habit of raising the lever and purging out some water to wash off the shower screen on both my levers and pump machines.

[bill]

I use a small raise on the lever. Around a quarter of the lever stroke is all I use. At worst, I get a small hiss when I pull the portafilter off.

I don't lower the lever nearly that much but they're obviously very different machines. There must be a considerable amount of suction generated as the entire puck was stuck to the screen. I'll just have to be very careful.

I have a habit of raising the lever and purging out some water to wash off the shower screen on both my levers and pump machines.

I always do the same so maybe I needn't be concerned.

[peacecup]

Bill,

I'd been using this lever-lift PF removal myself since I'd read the post. It was so much fun to be able the remove the PF instantly, but after reading your post I stopped! Even if the chance is very small, the last thing I want to do is draw ANY grinds into my piston cylinder. My Ponte Vecchio has worked flawlessly for two years, and I do not want to risk any unnecessary maintenance for the convenience of a few seconds before removing the PF.

PS: just finished my umpteenth reading of His Last Bow, and immediately went round to the first page of the Canon, where I'm currently rattling away in a hansom towards the Brixton Road for the very first time (again!)....

PC

[HB]

Even if the chance is very small, the last thing I want to do is draw ANY grinds into my piston cylinder. My Ponte Vecchio has worked flawlessly for two years, and I do not want to risk any unnecessary maintenance for the convenience of a few seconds before removing the PF.

I'm confused. How is the effect of Dave's "early portafilter release" technique any different than multiple lever pulls, a practice you've repeatedly advocated?

[peacecup]

I'm confused. How is the effect of Dave's "early portafilter release" technique any different than multiple lever pulls, a practice you've repeatedly advocated?

I guess I was thinking of using the technique after the machine had been turned off. You're correct, in that if the machine is still on, if one pulls the lever down, removes the PF, then allows water to be expelled under pressure to clean the group it should be the same.

I've had the dispersion screen off my PV several times, and have never noticed any grinds in the chamber, so taking multiple pulls does not appear to create enough suction to pull grinds into the chamber.

EDIT: FOR MOST OF THE PAST TWO YEARS I HAVE BEEN TAMPING RELATIVELY HARD, AND I STILL TAMP FIRMLY. VERY FINELY-GROUND, LIGHTLY-TAMPED COFFEE MAY BE MORE EASILY SUCKED INTO THE PISTON CHAMBER DURING MULTIPLE PULLS.

PC

[HB]

EDIT: FOR MOST OF THE PAST TWO YEARS...

Er, why are you "yelling"?

[peacecup]

I'm concerned that very finely-ground, lightly-tamped coffee might get into the group during multiple pulls. I wanted to be sure that no one damaged their machine assuming that since I have not seen grounds in the group during multiple pulls, they would have the same results. Wanted to be sure they saw it.

PC

[HB]

I wanted to be sure that no one damaged their machine assuming that since I have not seen grounds in the group during multiple pulls, they would have the same results.

Damage what?

Even if a few errant grounds made it past the dispersion screen into the piston chamber, they aren't going far. The rising piston will create an air space with a smidgen of coffee grounds at the bottom; the piston reaches the fill hole; the chamber fills with water. Next the water pushes the grounds back out through the dispersion screen. End of story.

[RapidCoffee]

Here is a little trick I have been using lately...
Normally you have to let the machine sit for a moment or two so it can depressurize...
So if you are in a hurry and need to pull a second shot in rapid sequence, try raising the piston about half a stroke and unlock your portafilter, but please be cautious just in case.

I'm sure Dave discovered this technique on his own. But for the record, I was rereading Mark Prince's La Pavoni Professional First Look! and came across this familiar-sounding tidbit:

Because of the manual nature of this machine, you do suffer the dreaded "portafilter sneeze" if you try to remove the PF too soon after pulling a shot. There is a trick to minimize it - lift the lever about 3/4 of the way to relieve some pressure inside the portafilter and grouphead.

The article was posted March 13, 2002.

[stsmytherie]

Damage what?

Even if a few errant grounds made it past the dispersion screen into the piston chamber, they aren't going far. The rising piston will create an air space with a smidgen of coffee grounds at the bottom; the piston reaches the fill hole; the chamber fills with water. Next the water pushes the grounds back out through the dispersion screen. End of story.

Actually, the dispersion screen -- at least the one on my recently acquired vintage Sama Export a cousin (twin?) of the PV -- has some indentations on the inner surface that can and do trap particles directly around the holes in the screen. Over time, these particles can build up sufficiently to block holes in the screen. This suggests that it may be easier to pull grounds in than to flush out. You'd have to remove the screen and scrub occasionally to monitor this. Not convenient or a lot of fun.

Granted, how long it takes to block the dispersion screen beyond usefulness is open to debate. But my Export suffered from this buildup of grounds on the inside of the dispersion screen. Took lots of scrubbing and a fine needle to correct. Perhaps more frequent preventive maintenance on the part of the previous owner would have helped.

YMMV

[mogogear]

I do use the following to help keep the bottom of the piston bore clean in my levers:

Starting with a machine up to temp:

1. Fill a old margarine tub with a tsp of Caffiza or equal. add boiling water
2. Remove PF
3. Immerse the bottom of the group in the foaming cleaner solution. Either raise the manual lever or pull down the spring lever to draw the solution in through the screen.
4. Hold what you have for a while and expel.
   NOTE: You can replace water in the tub with clean to do a rinse cycle also

Careful not to draw piston up so far as to admit solution bits in to the inlet from the boiler. Just to be safe!

Repeat as needed. I believe that this can also diminish the lube on the piston seals so YMMV.

[HB]

Perhaps more frequent preventive maintenance on the part of the previous owner would have helped.

It doesn't take a lot of effort to keep an espresso machine clean. I've seen a smidgen of grounds behind the dispersion screen of the equipment I've used and maintained, but Steve's Restoration of an Olympia Cremina demonstrates there's plenty of cleanliness slackers out there:

Job 5, Cleaning the Dispersion Screen

For those of you thinking that my morning went smoothly, let me tell you a little secret: "The Coffee Gods have a nasty sense of humor". Fresh from a string of good luck with the group head, I started to clean the silly little dispersion screen. Tried scrubbing, tried cleaner, tried straight dishwashing detergent, tried toothbrushes, tried scrub bushes...none would work. What was lodged into every little machined hole of Swiss Miss' dispersion screen was the equivalent of petrified black tar. The only way I could get it out was to use a sewing needle and work each hole.



My 5 minute job resulted in being the longest task of the day taking over one hour to complete. Had I been on Monster House, I would not be leaving with the Makita tool kit or welder. But, on the bright side the group head is completely apart, usable and now ready for rechroming.

I do use the following to help keep the bottom of the piston bore clean in my levers:

Interesting. For the Lusso, I flush the group frequently and pop the dispersion whenever the mood strikes me. It's always been clean, but I keep doing it anyway, just in case there's oil buildup.

[mogogear]

Good observations Dan
You do have to assume that if not much makes it through the holes in the basket that the screen would be equally as effective in preventing upward movement.

I only draw/flush my levers about 1-2 times a year. So I don't over do it for sure. I am a little leery of popping the screen off a lot since they are not super available.

I am with you though my cleaning most likely is not really needed even the old Creminas I first rebuilt didn't have any crazy build up in the cylinders and the screens were no less than 90 percent open. Mostly blocked at a few edge holes.

I am a slacker about really deep cleaning the grinder out----- no vacuum here..............just brush and clack, clack clack! There I said it- flog me!

[narc]

I only draw/flush my levers about 1-2 times a year. So I don't over do it for sure. I am a little leery of popping the screen off a lot since they are not super available.

Placed an order with Vaneli's for some Ponte Vecchio Lusso spare parts. Not sure what their inventory level is. Last I checked with 1st-Line they had not yet stocked any spare parts. They are the only two on-line retailer of Ponte Vecchios I know of.