Lever Espresso Machines Smackdown - Page 5

[frege]

You cite a good reason not to obsess over crema appearance. As the old espresso adage goes (paraphrased): "Beauty is skin deep, but taste goes to the bone."

I'm not obsessing! I just like getting pretty crema. Coffee's a visual experience too- all cuisine is. Everything we consume is.

[HB]

Are you reviewers a little stumped?

Can we conclude, therefore, that the typical HB'er is just over twice as interested in big. noisy electric machines than they are in small, quiet espresso makers?

Give us a break. It's the holidays and some of us have been working long hours to bring you gifts.

[Fullsack]

Not to throw a wet towel on the smackdown, but I'm wondering how much actually depends on the machine itself and how much will depend on the miriad of other variables: pressurestat setting, how the coffee pairs with the particular machine, how the grinder pairs with the particular machine, the familiarity of the barista with the machine, etc. It seems like it will be tough to level the playing field.

11/11

I still agree with myself

Are you reviewers a little stumped?

Well intentioned, but not as easily accomplished as anticipated?

[Kaffee Bitte]

In fact, it took 26 days to go from top of page 1 to top of page 4.
The Titan thread took 12 days.
Can we conclude, therefore, that the typical HB'er is just over twice as interested in big. noisy electric machines than they are in small, quiet espresso makers?

PC

You could also conclude that we lever fanatics are too busy making great espresso and keeping the lever forum fully supported to look anywhere else on this site.

[peacecup]

Give us a break. It's the holidays and some of us have been working long hours to bring you gifts.

Sorry Dan, no offense meant Must be the sleep deprivation due to the arrival of a new nestling.

PC

[Fullsack]

whoops

[calb]

You cite a good reason not to obsess over crema appearance. As the old espresso adage goes (paraphrased): "Beauty is skin deep, but taste goes to the bone."

I'm not obsessing! I just like getting pretty crema. Coffee's a visual experience too- all cuisine is. Everything we consume is.

I agree with both

[Fullsack]

I've been wondering myself just why this thread has been so slow to develop.

It is because the Lever Machine Smackdown looks more like the Lever Machine Putdown, with Dan being the only non-LMWDP exception.

That's one of my pet peeves about most lever machines: Why do they insist on putting a screw under the drip tray? Any liquid that gets spilt on the base will end up under that drip tray. Most drip trays on these machines are small, and the drip tray on the Leva is particularly small. You most certainly will overflow it one day. Then all that water will end up under the drip tray. Once there, it will find its way around that screw and into the base of the machine. Once in there, the machine will slowly rust from the inside out. It would be nice if the screw was relocated to a non water prone location, like under the machine or behind the boiler. The other option is to create the base from a non rusting metal like stainless (such as the Gaggia Achille) or giving it a corrosion resistant coating, but I digress.

My best Pavoni pulls rival a good strong cup of coffee or Aeropress cup, but they still don't compare to Vetrano shots.

However, you're right it's still not anywhere near the clarity you can get out of a nice PID machine, such as a Synesso.

What I don't get is the taste clarity that I get with my Marzocco.
The Lusso is a fun, modern antique. So far, I'm glad it's in my basement.

It is the Hatfields reviewing the McCoys

[HB]

It is because the Lever Machine Smackdown looks more like the Lever Machine Putdown, with Dan being the only non-LMWDP exception.

Do you disagree with the comments you excerpted?

I don't consider it damning commentary that the Lusso was bested by a highly modified La Marzocco Linea. And Dave's right about the Microcasa base: I've only had it for a few years, it's seen light duty, and there's already traces of rust around that poorly placed screw hole. I adore Elektra's workmanship, but in this case, they're wrong. La Pavoni makes the same mistake. The base attachment screw should come up from the bottom so there'd be no hole in the driptray area (like the Gaggia Achille).

It is the Hatfields reviewing the McCoys

Given the quality and thoroughness of the site's reviews, I believe we deserve a bit more credit than that. If you prefer to read "fan boy" reviews, I'm sure Google will be happy to assist you in your quest.

[Fullsack]

Do you disagree with the comments you excerpted?

That's not the point, this was billed as the Lever Machine Smackdown, not as a lever machine vs. pump machine comparison with the pump machine advocates doing the comparisons. I don't believe this is what 1st-Line Jim had in mind when he sponsored the "Smackdown."

And Dave's right about the Microcasa base:

I don't take issue with that. He attributed the defect to "most lever machines." That is just not true.

Given the quality and thoroughness of the site's reviews, I believe we deserve a bit more credit than that.

The reviewers, admittedly, don't have much lever machine experience.

[HB]

That's not the point, this was billed as the Lever Machine Smackdown, not as a lever machine vs. pump machine comparison with the pump machine advocates doing the comparisons.

I disagree, comparisons are inevitable and expected, if only because that's what potential buyers will have to do. Originally Jim and I discussed a standard "Buyer's Guide" review of the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. But since lever espresso machines were not well represented in the reviews, the idea of side-by-side comparisons a la the Titan Grinder Project emerged.

I don't take issue with that. He attributed the defect to "most lever machines." That is just not true.

Few would argue that the La Pavoni Europiccola and Elektra Microcasa a Leva are among the most popular lever machines. Dave could have said "many" or "many of the most popular," but that's nitpicking over word choice.

[cannonfodder]

I am not bad mouthing any machine, just as with the other reviews the positives and negatives must be brought to light so anyone that decides to make a purchase based on the supplied information gets a realistic experience. Just like pointing out the plastic gauges and extra vibration noise on the VBM, picking on a screw under the drip tray must mean that the rest of the machine is pretty solid. I believe the Elektra, Gaggia, LaPav, a LaPav like Olympia, I think I remember seeing on the La Peppina and others, but again that is nitpicking.

It is the holiday season, there is a life outside of cyberspace so the going is a little slower than during the off season. At least it is for me. Comparing a lever to a pump, you have to have a benchmark to compare to. I do not have a LM at home so my benchmark comparison is against an Elektra A3, and I am a long time lever user. I just did not bother with a LMWDP number.

I have been using the levers almost exclusively since they arrived. My focus is moving onto the Factory/LaPav machine right now. I pulled one of my best shots in some time using it with some twin cities espresso from Counter Culture yesterday. Absolutely mind-blowing, and with a single lever pull, I even snapped a photo before I sipped it down.

[Fullsack]

I think I remember seeing on the La Peppina...

Same kind of a drip tray insert, but no screw.

Greg, "mogogear's" list of lever machines:

http://www.home-barista.com/forum...s-t3600.html#38394

[gscace]

The reviewers, admittedly, don't have much lever machine experience.

Hey Fullsack:

I personally find your comments pretty insulting. As a reviewer I'll post something when I think it's useful and I can produce some new knowledge. For now, I have one lever machine in my possession. I've written about it as accurately as I can. I've learned a bunch about it, and I think what I wrote is fine.

I think your argument that we don't have much lever experience is bull, and I personally think it's probably a good thing if we can look at extractions critically without a lot of baggage. Unless you can point to references that show otherwise, I think coffee and water are dead, and they don't give a ratsass what device shoves the dead water through the dead coffee - lever, pump, or banjo. We taste, we try to improve, we try to correlate taste to other physical clues that we are doing things correctly. In my observations, I've chopped a portafilter so that I can look at the extraction viscosity, flow symmetry and color. I know what brew pressures are produced by the Lusso. I've also done a very reasonable thing IMO by comparing the shots from the Lusso to shots produced by the current state of the art in espresso machinery. And I've put some small effort into learning what it is that causes the difference. I think that all of these things are within the bounds of a smackdown. And when I get a free moment, I'm going to build a thermofilter for the Lusso and I'll learn some more about it.

Regarding the Lusso, and First Line - Jim's really sticking his neck out because he handed me a machine with NO groundrules on what or how I'm supposed to evaluate it. That means to me that he trusts me to be fair, and that he believes that he is selling a good machine. I think I've been pretty on the mark here. If you want fluff, go read some consumer reviews that are written by folks who just purchased their first espresso machine 3 days ago. If you want substance, I'll report back to you when I get something new.

-Greg

[Fullsack]

I personally find your comments pretty insulting.

No insult intended, just an opinion. Review debates are just that, debates. I'm right and you are insulting me isn't a debate.

[SJM]

arrival of a new nestling.

PC

I dunno, I probably missed this at some point, but just in case it's really really recent and there is room for yet another one, I'll just say: C O N G R A T U L A T I O N S . I can't imagine a more peaceful nest than the one you and yours are providing.

Susan

[HB]

No insult intended, just an opinion. Review debates are just that, debates. I'm right and you are insulting me isn't a debate.

Well, I've taken your comments to mean you believe the reviewers are biased and unqualified. Or did I misunderstand? I chose not to be insulted because I know that's not true. If you have specific suggestions on how we can do a better job, or wish to offer your own findings, please do so.

The reviewers, admittedly, don't have much lever machine experience.

Sorry, missed this comment the first time around. Dave and I have several years of experience, plus I have the advantage of regular private lessons from the Leader of the LMWDP, Steve Robinson. Greg and John haven't used levers much, but they're highly skilled baristas and well qualified to evaluate espressos. I intentionally include a mix of experience levels in the reviews, though it's not always explicitly called out (e.g., sometimes I'll loan out equipment to "newbie" locals for confirmation of my findings).

[Kaffee Bitte]

I think this review is going well. I would however like to see some more of the newbie reviewers thoughts as they climb towards the peaks of the learning curve. I have had my machine for almost a year now and am just beginning to feel like I know her manual levered ways. The new to lever reviewers would really benefit from hearing feedback on using their machines. I cannot even begin to explain just how helpful the lever forum was at bringing me up to speed.

So to the never used a lever crowd, please post your thoughts and experiences. It will facilitate your rapid learning. Every single one of the lever users started at a similar point to where you are right now. No one, not even the long time lever fiends, was born with extensive knowledge of the inner workings of levers. Such things are grown, not born. There is a wealth of knowledge and ideas to be gathered from other users, so please don't let newbie status keep you from posting!

We may seem like an elitist crowd at times, but I have found most regular lever forum users to be helpful and at least marginally gentle to the noob.

POST AWAY!

[jgriff]

Greg and John haven't used levers much, but they're highly skilled baristas and well qualified to evaluate espressos. I intentionally include a mix of experience levels in the reviews, though it's not always explicitly called out (e.g., sometimes I'll loan out equipment to "newbie" locals for confirmation of my findings).

I, for one, appreciate this. I have zero experience on levers so it's good to get a "newbie" point of view. I've only had a "real" espresso machine for a year, so it's also good to get all the background information on how levers work, etc.

I also appreciate this forum, "The Bench". In a way, it allows any interested HB member to have their say in the review process and get a behind-the-scenes peak at how the final reviews are put together. In essence, the final product is a cumulative effort between the official test reviewers and other posters that make suggestions, prompt questions, and otherwise give the reviewer a different perspective. I think this probably helps the review to be much more thorough and answer questions we all might have in advance.

However, I get kind of frustrated when threads in this forum get away from the original topic or end up being overly concerned (my opinion, of course) with minutiae. That's why I'm content--for the most part--with sitting back and watching as the information unfolds. We're lucky that we get that privilege rather than having to wait until the final review is posted on the homepage.

Justin

[Kaffee Bitte]

You should grind about 12grams of coffee for the double basket.

I've actually found that a small amount of overdosing helps a lot...

It's a real stretch to call 12g overdosing (or even updosing).

This Pavoni must be a pre millenium model. On my millenium it is no problem to get around 15-16g in the double basket. Mind you this is with a larger 51mm group and deeper basket by far.

Something that might be a good idea for the reviewers using this older model is to get an Elektra Microcasa a Leva double basket to use with the pavoni. It allows more coffee to be used, possibly bringing the ability to make true doubles. Something to think about.