Lever Espresso Machines Smackdown - Page 13

[cannonfodder]

Karl,
could you please add some comparison of the taste of La Pavoni shots vs Electra's and Cremina's?

And...

Dave, could you please keep your promise and write some more info on that topic? (that is the set-up itself and the temp profile/stability of your 'little man')
I will probably buy La Pavoni in near future and would be very happy and appreciating your elaborations.
Thanks!

Well, there is an inherent problem with a pressure driven lever. The water has to be hotter than brew temperature to create steam. That steam forces the water from the boiler to the group. It was quite a bit of work and if I had to do it again, I would not. I did a post about it three years ago, for more info... Digital temperature controller on a lever machine

[CoffeeOwl]

Thank you both!

[peacecup]

Pawel,

If you are concerned with micromanaging temperature, I'm not sure any of the lever machines commonly available will work. They all, as Dave notes, use pressure to push water to the group - and this water therefore is hot - ~230F (Pressure increases the boiling point). The very large piece of brass, known as the group on lever machines, draws away the extra heat, allowing proper brew temperature. This is why they tend to overheat during prolonged use. Eventually the group cannot absorb enough heat to cool the water sufficiently.

Managing these temperatures to +/- 1 degree, therefore will be very difficult. That said, there is a very long list of very satisfied, and some very discriminating, lever users. This is because lever espresso tastes great, and because using a lever espresso machine is a beautiful experience. Somehow each of these users has developed means to obtain the brew temperatures they like, and you will too.

Any of the commonly available lever machines (Pavoni, Elektra, Ponte Vecchio) will make a great espresso, and will be a joy to use. You'll need to decide between spring and manual levers, and plenty has been written about each.

Good luck,

PC

[CoffeeOwl]

Peacecup,

honestly, we espresso drinkers cannot even be 100% sure that this brew temperature control is all that important to the excellence of taste in the cup ( -> Semiautomatica review).
Anyway, my line will be Pavoni - Electra - Cremina... LOL, I guess I forgot I'm not yet a millionaire... so at least in tasting the espressi it will be, with Semiautomatica in there too. What will I buy in (hopefully) near future - La Pavoni Stradivari 16 cup in wood, just because I prefer a manual lever first.
And well, I pray to my Gods for this being really soon, for I want LMWDP number 198 and it looks like there's a lever crowd!

[HB]

honestly, we espresso drinkers cannot even be 100% sure that this brew temperature control is all that important to the excellence of taste in the cup ( -> Semiautomatica review).

Follow-up comments split to article feedback for the Buyer's Guide to the Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica...

[narc]

CoffeeOwl:

Anyway, my line will be Pavoni - Electra - Cremina... LOL, I guess I forgot I'm not yet a millionaire

Don't forget about the Ponte Vecchio lineup. Once warmed up the Lusso with its in-direct connected grouphead is relatively temp stable. I waste less water flushing the group with this machine than my retired Isomac Tea (E61/HX) used. Normal procedure is one pull on the lever (~30-60ml of water flushed), lock the portafilter, pull the shot.

Not very common, megabucks & 220volt/+18amp, but are not the Astoria Rapallo levers a HX design? If the groupheads are indirect connects like the Lusso should be minimal problems with overheating grouphead. Adjustments to the boiler pstat should allow you to have some control over brew water temp.

[caeffe]

I quite enjoyed reading through this smackdown and was most interested in comparisons of the Mcal and the Europiccola especially since I have a Europiccola myself.

My biggest takeaway from all this is that each of the machines have their own characteristic - be it manual lever or spring assisted lever. However, are the differences between the Lusso and the Mcal minute enough that we can classify them as of the same character? For someone new to espresso is the difference actual so great that he/she can taste the difference between say the Mcal and the Lusso?

For me the difference between my europiccola and my NS Oscar is a 'softer' edge on the manual vs the Oscar HX semi-auto pump. I was convinced of getting a lever after trying some espresso at Lux coffeebar in Phoenix. They have a 3 group manual 'spring' lever machine there. As is often the case for me I always order an espresso prior to ordering a cappuccino to check basics. I found the commercial lever to have an even softer edge compare to my europiccola. I can probably drink a big gulp of espresso's from there. Of course this could relate to the person behind the lever.

It seems to me that most if not all commercial levers I see mentioned here in HB are of the spring lever type. Is this true?

Is the softer edge due to the pressure from a spring is lower - <9 bar? If commercial levers are mostly spring type, why then are semi-auto pumps recommended at 9 bar? I'm assuming this has been debated before, being a relative newbie I'd appreciate a link to such posts.

[CoffeeOwl]

I quite enjoyed reading through this smackdown(...)

ME TOO!!!

For someone new to espresso is the difference actual so great that he/she can taste the difference between say the Mcal and the Lusso?

and MCal and Pavoni (the taste difference between Cremina and MCal was that widely discussed that I assume even a relative newbe would notice it).

(...)pressure from a spring is lower - <9 bar? If commercial levers are mostly spring type, why then are semi-auto pumps recommended at 9 bar? I'm assuming this has been debated before, being a relative newbie I'd appreciate a link to such posts.

The spring's force is the equivalent of 8BAR of pressure

That's what makes me wonder too...

[cannonfodder]

I believe the end of shot pressure is more in line with 6 bar on the Microcasa Leva, not sure about the commercial machines.

[Dogshot]

I'm curious to know if the Lusso can be temperature surfed like one would a typical e61 machine? What I mean is, are differences in taste profiles obvious when the Lusso is flushed 1oz prior to brewing versus when it is flushed 3oz?

I have gone through this thread a fair amount, but missed whether Greg put a Scace on the Lusso after-all - did he come up with a guide of any kind that might indicate what temperatures could be expected from a Lusso with pstat set to X, and after flushing A, B, and C amounts?

Mark

[HB]

I have gone through this thread a fair amount, but missed whether Greg put a Scace on the Lusso after-all...

Greg recently finished the custom thermofilter for the Lusso, but he's busy preparing for the USBC in Minnesota. We haven't forgotten, just a matter of bad timing with his SCAA responsibilities, my work on the site upgrade, dealing with the Tax Man, job responsibilities, family responsibilities, and so on. Don't worry, we'll be sure to give the Lusso the full brew and temperature profile treatment before the final writeup.

[Jarno]

I'm not sure about the other levers, but the la Pavoni grouphead holds about 1.5 oz in an outer chamber which then becomes the brew water for the next shot. At one time I toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the grouphead into its outer chamber in order to place a thermocouple there. It wouldn't be great temperature control, but it would be better than what's already there...

Wow, just got done reading the last entries of the thread... What a thread...

[Dogshot]

Greg recently finished the custom thermofilter for the Lusso, but he's busy preparing for the USBC in Minnesota. We haven't forgotten, just a matter of bad timing with his SCAA responsibilities, my work on the site upgrade, dealing with the Tax Man, job responsibilities, family responsibilities, and so on. Don't worry, we'll be sure to give the Lusso the full brew and temperature profile treatment before the final writeup.

Thanks for the information, Dan. I honestly wasn't sure if this had already been posted or not. I look forward to reading about it.

Mark

[caeffe]

I'm not sure about the other levers, but the la Pavoni grouphead holds about 1.5 oz in an outer chamber which then becomes the brew water for the next shot. At one time I toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the grouphead into its outer chamber in order to place a thermocouple there. It wouldn't be great temperature control, but it would be better than what's already there...

Wow, just got done reading the last entries of the thread... What a thread...

Agree that this is a great thread.... I have to read it again, and again .... and again.

I didn't realize that the europiccola had a 1.5 oz outer chamber - does this mean it is an 'infused' or 'saturated' group? I thought that all the brew water was in the boiler and not until one pulls lever and exposes the 'hole' does one get brew water in the grouphead. I recall seeing a cutaway of a La Marzocco grouphead here cutaway-of-la-marzocco-saturated-grouphead-t700.html - is this what you mean? Is there a cutaway of the europiccola around?

[r-gordon-7]

I'm not sure about the other levers, but the la Pavoni grouphead holds about 1.5 oz in an outer chamber which then becomes the brew water for the next shot. At one time I toyed with the idea of drilling a hole through the grouphead into its outer chamber in order to place a thermocouple there. It wouldn't be great temperature control, but it would be better than what's already there...

Wow, just got done reading the last entries of the thread... What a thread...

Wouldn't having "an outer chamber which then becomes the brew water for the next shot" mean that if you shut the machine down for a while and then come back later you'd have to flush out from that "outer chamber" the now-too-cold water before pulling the first shot? I've not experienced the need to do that on my Pavoni-like Gaggia Factory...

(And, absolutely yes - great thread indeed!)

[Jarno]

Agree that this is a great thread.... I have to read it again, and again .... and again.

I didn't realize that the europiccola had a 1.5 oz outer chamber - does this mean it is an 'infused' or 'saturated' group? I thought that all the brew water was in the boiler and not until one pulls lever and exposes the 'hole' does one get brew water in the grouphead. I recall seeing a cutaway of a La Marzocco grouphead here cutaway-of-la-marzocco-saturated-grouphead-t700.html - is this what you mean? Is there a cutaway of the europiccola around?

I'm not sure of the concept 'infused' vs 'saturated' for this particular model. When the brew water reaches the head, it is superheated and needs to cool down to brew temperature. Thus, the grouphead acts as a heatsink in this manner. However, the brew water does not recirculate with the boiler again. It is used for the next shot, so the temperature of the brew water is not stable and timing your shot is everything. I measure the temperature delta by placing a thermocouple on the grouphead surface and search for the optimum temperature there. I'd say the consistency shot to shot from this method is about 80%.

[Jarno]

Wouldn't having "an outer chamber which then becomes the brew water for the next shot" mean that if you shut the machine down for a while and then come back later you'd have to flush out from that "outer chamber" the now-too-cold water before pulling the first shot? I've not experienced the need to do that on my Pavoni-like Gaggia Factory...

(And, absolutely yes - great thread indeed!)

When I first turn on the machine in the morning, I find my first shot, if I don't flush first, to be too cool. The espresso runs thin and the flavor is bright. The second shot is near perfect with good mouthfeel. The third shot is too hot/bitter and loss of mouthfeel. By the 4th shot, the lever jams. So my first blank shot is only about an ounce so that the next brew water is a mixture of hot and cool water and the final brew water is about right.

Just for more insight into the Pavoni grouphead, the entire head holds about 3 oz, as there is another 1.5 oz in the space above the piston. Therefore with each flush/pull, the grouphead is heated with 3 oz of superheated water, not 1.5 oz. When the lever is raised, the water above the piston is actually pushed back into the boiler (notice that the pressure gauge registers a drop due to a temporary drop in boiler temp) before the inlet hole is uncovered allowing the brew chamber to fill for the shot.

When I make my second espresso (after the blank shot and first espresso), I first proceed to cool the grouphead. I first turn the machine/boiler off. I have a lever rest which I use to hold the lever in the cocked position, but not open all the way. The purpose here is to evacuate the space above the piston. After all, why cool 3 oz of water when you can just cool 1.5 oz. Do the usual wet rag/ice cube bit. Then turn on the boiler and measure the grouphead surface temp to 127 to 135 deg F depending on coffee and ambient temperature, then brew. Repeat as often as needed. It takes me 10 minutes per cup.

[caeffe]

Jarno-
I still don't quite follow this.
Are you saying that after the 1st shot/flush there is actually water in the grouphead amounting to about 1.5 oz? hence If I only pull 1 shot, and leave the machine there will be water in the grouphead? I thought that water didn't enter the grouphead until the lever/piston is raised past a certain point. This water is then pushed out through the puck by the barista pushing down on the lever. What would happen to the water in the grouphead if I turned off the machine?

[ntwkgestapo]

Yes, there's about 1.5 oz of water that sits ABOVE the piston. That's why they recommend you do 2-3 "half" pumps on the FIRST shot. It's to push that water BACK into the boiler and pull some hot water back in. It warms the group up.

I usually do about 3 of the "half" pumps to warm the group for the first shot. Then I wait for the p-stat to finish cycling and then pull the first shot.

[Jarno]

Jarno-
I still don't quite follow this.
Are you saying that after the 1st shot/flush there is actually water in the grouphead amounting to about 1.5 oz? hence If I only pull 1 shot, and leave the machine there will be water in the grouphead? I thought that water didn't enter the grouphead until the lever/piston is raised past a certain point. This water is then pushed out through the puck by the barista pushing down on the lever. What would happen to the water in the grouphead if I turned off the machine?

Hi Caesar,

There is always water in the grouphead. Even after the machine is off and cold, the water is still in the grouphead, held suspended by vacuum, as no air is allowed in the grouphead. I haven't yet found an accurate schematic of a Pavoni head (and I would draw one if I were any sort of artist), but if you remove the head from the boiler and then the tube from the grouphead, you will find that there is still water left in the head. Upon removing the piston (for cleaning) you will see that there is a nylon sleeve (millenium model) that the piston fits in. There are some pictures of this somewhere on this site. The top of the sleeve are 4 slits that allow in the boiler water above the piston. Also, there is space around the outside of the sleeve from which the inlet hole allows in fresh brew water. This space amounts to about 1.5 oz. And as noted, the piston may be pushed up and down and thus moving the water back and forth into the outer chamber of the grouphead and the boiler. The maximal space above the piston is also about 1.5 oz.