Lever Espresso Machines Smackdown - Page 2

[RapidCoffee]

I hope you guys will also note the coffees and grinders used for the evaluations. I'd also like to hear more about technique used. John are you using WDT? Is anyone else? Lets hear it! In the meantime great work, this is really shaping up to be a lot of fun!

I'm grinding with a doserless Mazzer Super Jolly into a glass spice jar, and declumping by stirring with my trusty dissecting needle. The grounds are then transferred into the filter basket, and leveled to the top of the basket. If the dose is too high, grounds are removed by stirring with the needle and releveling. You can pack 15g into the Pavoni double basket without hitting the screen, but the taste suffers. When I downdose to 12g the taste is far better. As you can see, the tamped grinds are well below the rim with a 12g dose:



I'm pulling 20-25ml volume from the double basket, using the Fellini move approach. This amounts to one full stroke after the puck has fully preinfused and the first drops appear.



The brew ratio is around 50% (46.4% in this case), smack dab in the middle of the "regular espresso" category.

[Javier]

Hi Greg,

Since it's my first lever machine experience I don't have lots of experience wrt coffee taste compared to other lever offerings aimed at the home market. I find the coffee taste to be creamy and sweet. These attributes are at the expense of flavor clarity.

I am glad you chimed in. It was really interesting to read your first impressions about the Lusso.

If you would like to test another home lever machine, I can bring over my Gaggia Factory (i.e., rebranded La Pavoni) and loan it to you for a few weeks. Please, let me know if you are interested.

Javier

[peacecup]

I don't worship flat line temperature

Nice to hear someone say this.

This is probably as good a time as any to say that I just don't get why the piston displacement is so small.

That's because:

The Lusso is a fun, modern antique.

(the antique part).

Ever looked on Ebay Italy? Most of the older home levers have small PF - I suppose the folks who designed these liked small doses of espresso - not exactly what our post-Starbucks society finds to their liking.

The espresso made with a modern machine using a 58mm portafilter and 18+ grams of coffee is not the espresso made by the Lusso. It's a similar, but different.

All the reviewers should post this above their machines!

two less-microscopic double basket, which I'm told holds around 13 grams of coffee each.

I've weighed up to 16g in mine, but have not checked for a while. I suggest you try updosing. Why? Because:

You have to resign yourself to recocking the lever if you want a ¾ to 1 ounce drink.

Right, unless you want ~1/2 oz shots you need to pull twice. There is a small air release valve at the top rear of the piston to allow air displacement during the lever pull. But, if you got 13g floating around the bottom of the basket it clearly will be difficult to have the puck undisturbed when you cock the lever the second time.

If ya'll wanna see what the Ponte Vecchio is made of someone should try cramming the basket full and pulling some 15g, 1-oz ristrettos.

PC

[gscace]

Nov. 7 AM update:

This morning I matched coffee dose volumes as best I could between the Marzocco and the Lusso. I have lots of 58mm baskets and I have a small straight sided double basket that is very shallow and holds about what a Rancilio basket holds - 14gm. I used this basket and pulled shots of Harrar from the Marzocco. These were extremely sweet berry bombs. I was able to get quite close with the Lusso by updosing, very little pre-infusion, and the pulling technique I described yesterday. Lusso shots were less viscous and slightly less sweet, but creamy. Volumes were what they were. I don't get hung up on shot volume. I look at the extraction and how it progresses, stopping when the extraction lightens and thins, or I get the taste profile that I want. Volume is what it is. FWIW these shots were prolly a little less than an ounce.

I'll mention here that the Marzocco is fed by a Fluid-O-Tec TMFR rotary pump. The pump speed is controlled by a variable speed controller whose output is regulated by a PID process controller and an electronic pressure transducer (If you wanna fall asleep at your computer there are posts on HB that blog about the pump and its effect that were published last spring when I put the system together). The result is that the pre-infusion and brewing pressure profile is variable and reproducible. The current pressure profile is to use a 2-second constant pre-infusion at low pressure, followed by a fast, concave-up pressure ramp to full pressure, then declining pressure similar to lever profile. So I'm in a position to make observations of the Lusso's behavior, try to duplicate them on the Marzocco, taste the result, and see if I understand the process.

The thing I came away with this morning was the accentuated sweetness and berry taste of the small Marzocco shots brewed with a shallow basket. At this point I attribute this to the reduced temperature gradient from top to bottom of the shallow basket, compared to the straight-sided 18 gm basket that is my usual starting point. The slightly reduced sweetness from the Lusso shots compared to the Marzocco shots may be the result of the extra depth of the small diameter Lusso basket compared to the shallow one i used in the Marzocco. At this point I'm also thinking that the required second pull on the Lusso results in reduced viscosity. I may program the Marzocco to duplicate it.

Another interesting idea I had was to bore out the center of a very shallow 58mm blind filter basket so that I could install the Lusso's basket into the marzocco. Sealing between the Lusso basket and the bored 58mm blind filter could easily be accomplished using a Viton O-ring. By doing this I can minimize differences in brew basket configuration when comparing machines.

What would I learn? If I can produce identical taste from two fundamentally different machines by producing the same temperature and pressure conditions in the coffee cake, then I'll learn something about the effect of pressure and temperature profiling wrt coffee taste. I'd also learn a little about what makes lever machines tick, whether or not the taste produced by a lever machine is intrinsic to the machine configuration (the lever, chamber, etc.), or whether it can be duplicated regardless of machine style.

-Greg

[gscace]

Hi Greg,



I am glad you chimed in. It was really interesting to read your first impressions about the Lusso.

If you would like to test another home lever machine, I can bring over my Gaggia Factory (i.e., rebranded La Pavoni) and loan it to you for a few weeks. Please, let me know if you are interested.

Javier

Hey thanks. Glad I didn't bore you too much. WRT the Gaggia Factory - I think I'm in the queue for a Pavoni at some point in this dog's breakfast and I should prolly opt for the test machine so that I'm on the same page as the rest of the reviewer / conscripts. If I'm wrong I'll let you know and take you up on yo' kind offer.

-Greg

[peacecup]

Greg,

Very interesting. Re: pressure configuration, I've had a kind of sense that the little (i.e. 45-mm diameter) column of water being forced through the Lusso's puck makes for a fairly laminar flow. I have no idea how dispersion is produced by a LM, but on cheap pump machines it comes out from a smallish opening and is dispersed by the screen or a plate. This is quite different than a "solid" column of water being forced directly through the puck by a flat-surfaced piston.

I've found deep, narrow shape of the 45-mm basket is very forgiving, at least in producing "good" espresso. I have not chopped the PF, but the pucks seldom seem to show effects of channeling. Whether this shape is capable of producing "berry bombs" may be another matter, as you raise the possibility that temp. differential within the puck may have an effect.

Some lever machines seem to need a lot of headroom (Pavoni, Elektra). The Ponte Vecchio needs very little headroom to operate. I'd be interested to hear what you think of shots in the 15-16g range. I've taken three, and occasionally four pulls on these, but they make very high brew ratio two-pulls.

PC

[frege]

...long pre-infusions didn't work well. I got better taste and a more uniform extraction cone (bottomless portafilter, remember?) when I pre-infused for shorter periods, only a couple of seconds-worth.

This goes against recommendations for my MCaL but I gave it a try, and the results have been beautiful. I may never go back to 10++ second pre-infusions. It takes great resolve to release that lever after two seconds-- it feels so.... wrong.

[HB]

Welcome John and Greg, thanks for joining the fray!

I took a couple days off from the Lusso and returned to it today. Before starting the session, I thought about the "stale water" comments that come up occasionally, though typically in the context of the perennial heat exchanger versus double boiler debates (e.g., Tasted Your Reservoir Water Lately? and Can water go stale?). Since the Lusso has a fairly large boiler, it stands to reason it would potentially suffer from this problem. So I let the boiler come to temperature, drained a cup of water, and let it cool for 30 minutes before tasting. After two days, yes, there was an unmistakable metallic / stale taste to the water. Thus the moral of the story: If you want the best tasting espresso, drain down the boiler each evening.

On other news, the Elektra Microcasa a Leva is en-route to Dave's and should arrive on Friday. He's a long-time La Pavoni / Gaggia Factory user, but has only tried the Microcasa one other time. I look forward to hearing his reprisal of Steve's Elektra/Pavoni side by side, especially given the dosing / preinfusion suggestions from Karl, Greg and John (frege) above.

[cannonfodder]

The Elektra arrived today safe and sound. I love the lines of the Elektra, always have always will despite the tiny portafilter and drip tray. I did not realize how much I have gotten use to a plumbed machine until I had to remember to flush into a pitcher. I am tempted to buy one for nothing else than decoration, but I do like the shots it makes. Unique is the only way I can describe it. They are less espresso like and more like a rich and bright coffee. Actually, the more I think about it, it reminds me of a cup from a Clover but a little thicker and with a little more intense flavor.

I have also gotten use to a 3 way valve. Now I know this does not have one but in the daze of routine, I pulled a shot, 'not bad, let me try another with a different dose' so I grab the portafilter and twist, POP! Arrrrr. Portafilter sneeze. Luckily it was partially depressurized so it just splattered instead of exploded.



The Elektra twins, or should I say the youngster and his great, great grandfather same brand but with designs that are decades apart. Two more diametric cups do not exist, both excellent yet drastically different. Was this pairing fate? Or more importantly will they have to pry the portafilters from my cold dead hands to get it back, time will tell.

[peacecup]

Dave wrote:

They are less espresso like and more like a rich and bright coffee.

gscace wrote:

The espresso made with a modern machine using a 58mm portafilter and 18+ grams of coffee is not the espresso made by the Lusso. It's a similar, but different.

Peacecup wrote:

All the reviewers should post this above their machines!

Hey, I'm loving this thread, so please don't take my comments amiss. I value all of the reviewers experience.

Dave, I might propose just the opposite - that is, the lever machine produces espresso, and the pump machine produces something else - not sure what. I keep coming back to this (and I'm sure most of you think I'm nuts!), but why do we assume that the 2007 (or 2000, or 1995, etc) LM Godshot is espresso? Just because its new don't make it so. I.E. Machines are developed for many reasons other than just the quality of their product. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are living (or dying) proof of this, but I'm sure it extends into the food and beverage industry.

Espresso, like scotch, is, as we've discussed previously, an acquired taste. If one acquires his/her taste on a modern pump machine that will be espresso. I've spent the past two years acquiring a taste for 45-mm-group, antique home lever machine espresso. To me this is now espresso. Pump espresso tastes over-gassed to me, like keg beer that has been filtered then pressurized with CO2 (vs. "cask ale"which ages naturally and produces all of its own CO2).

Maybe we should enlist the non-HB partners (husbands, wives, kids) who like coffee but don't live it. Or better yet friends who rarely drink the stuff. Pull them a shot from the lever and the pump, and ask them which tastes better.

Hmm..

Keep up the tasting!

PC

[HB]

Dave, I might propose just the opposite - that is, the lever machine produces espresso, and the pump machine produces something else - not sure what.

This point has already been discussed in Levers and lower crema production, namely:

That comment is typically applied to spring-powered levers, not manual levers like your [Gaggia Factory, Gaggia Achille, Olympia Cremina, etc]. While I've not measured the brew pressure of my Elektra Microcasa a Leva, Lino calculated its spring is capable of generating about 6 bar at its peak, tailing off to 4 bar. Perhaps needless to say, the crema production of an electric pump machine set to 6 bar is a lot less than one set to 9 bar; the same observation applies to spring-powered versus manual levers. Whether the loss of crema production is offset by a more appealing taste profile is frequently debated.

Of course I'm assuming the key factor producing spring levers' distinguishing characteristics is their brew pressure profile. We can test this assumption because Greg has the Lusso in house and tricked out La Marzocco capable of mimicking any brew profile pressure (once he crafts the custom thermofilter for the Lusso).

Pump espresso tastes over-gassed to me, like keg beer that has been filtered then pressurized with CO2 (vs. "cask ale"which ages naturally and produces all of its own CO2).

If you want to make the distinction, it would be more accurately described as "low pressure" (spring lever) versus "high pressure" (pump and manual lever). To my tastes, some manual lever espresso machines are capable of producing espressos that are indistinguishable from electric pump driven machines.

Maybe we should enlist the non-HB partners (husbands, wives, kids) who like coffee but don't live it. Or better yet friends who rarely drink the stuff. Pull them a shot from the lever and the pump, and ask them which tastes better.

"Better" is a judgment based in part on personal preference. When judging professional barista competitions, sensory judges are called upon to agree on the boundaries of what defines "better." While I certainly enjoy and appreciate espressos from both spring lever and pump-driven machines, no informed drinker would claim they're the same. I'll elaborate on this point tomorrow as part of my weekend writeup of the Ponte Vecchio Lusso versus the Vibiemme Domobar Super.

[jgriff]

I just want to say that I'm really enjoying hearing about you guys testing out the levers, especially from those that are new to them in any form. I got my first "real" espresso machine just under a year ago and it's been great. I am consistently getting great shots, and just the other day had the first "holy sh*t" moment when I realized the shot I had pulled in the morning was better than the one I was sipping at Stumptown in the afternoon. I'm curious about the whole lever experience and it will probably be my next venture into espresso machines since I've decided there's no need to upgrade Anita, so keep the info coming!

Justin

[KarlSchneider]

While I certainly enjoy and appreciate espressos from both spring lever and pump-driven machines, no informed drinker would claim they're the same. I'll elaborate on this point tomorrow as part of my weekend writeup of the Ponte Vecchio Lusso versus the Vibiemme Domobar Super.

This discussion reminds me of another. In the first edition of his "World Atlas of Wine" Hugh Johnson raised the question, "Which is better, Bordaux or Burgundy?" and answered by quoting someone who said that he could not decide because he had too much fun exploring the alternatives.

Johnson described the difference between Bordraux and Burgundy as one appealing to the intellectual who wrote his observations in a small leather-bound volume and the other who was a hedonist who loved the experience of tasting. I suspect Hugh would find the pump machine lovers to be those who love to explore the engineering of each machine and to document the differences quantitatively. By contrast the lever folk are completely immersed in the passion of tasting. I know that I have learned that I am a member of the latter camp. I started with a fine pump machine but once I moved to the lever world have found my space.

I have no need to argue which is better.. There is too much fun in considerng the alternatives.

KS

[cannonfodder]

We had my son's 8th birthday today so I did not have much time to play. I pulled the plumbed in Bunn off the espresso bar and dropped the Gaggia (La Pav pro 16) on the bar and wired it in.


You know a machine has a big bling factor when your non coffee drinking parents come over for a birthday party and are drawn to the machine. But onto the business end, I played with some dosing and grind settings. I have still not decided on a dose but the Elektra appears to work better with a higher dose. I am still not hitting the shower screen after the puck has expanded.

I decided to try my hand at frothing with the Elektra so I started a shot and grabbed my pitcher. The Elektra has a fixed steam wand on the right side of the machine but it protrudes far enough from the machine to give you some work room. She has plenty of steam power especially for a small boiler. It was quite easy to whip up some decent microfoam, especially considering this is the first time I have frothed with the machine.


Much more to come.

[gscace]

This discussion reminds me of another. In the first edition of his "World Atlas of Wine" Hugh Johnson raised the question, "Which is better, Bordaux or Burgundy?" and answered by quoting someone who said that he could not decide because he had too much fun exploring the alternatives.

Johnson described the difference between Bordraux and Burgundy as one appealing to the intellectual who wrote his observations in a small leather-bound volume and the other who was a hedonist who loved the experience of tasting. I suspect Hugh would find the pump machine lovers to be those who love to explore the engineering of each machine and to document the differences quantitatively. By contrast the lever folk are completely immersed in the passion of tasting. I know that I have learned that I am a member of the latter camp. I started with a fine pump machine but once I moved to the lever world have found my space.

I have no need to argue which is better.. There is too much fun in considering the alternatives.

KS

Actually, while I like to understand how our glorified hot water pumps operate, my motivation for doing so is taste driven. What's the big deal with levers and lever mystique? In the end, it's gotta be that you get to yank a handle rather than push a button. In the case of the Lusso, anyway, since it's got a spring-actuated piston that's pretty much it, with the exception that you get to add some variability with the pre-infusion. Here at Espresso Research Company HQ that don't amount for much because we let a micro-processor do variable pre-infusion. So I'm gonna put myself in both wine camps and encourage the discussion to move toward understanding and taste, rather than differences in any camp. Let's understand them, taste the difference we get by combining the virtues of one with the virtues of something else in order to improve the taste. Let's also recognize the intrinsic satisfaction of brewing this amazing elixir manually. It is fun, after all. And I like fun.

Now to start stripping away the lever mystique and understand what is going on:

One significant difference between the Lusso and most pump machines is that the brew pressure declines as the extraction progresses. In the case of the Lusso, the brewing pressure at the start of the extraction is a maximum of 100 psi, declining to a maximum of 50 psi at the end of the piston stroke. The fall rate is linear with displaced volume unless the spring is progressively wound, which I doubt. Notice that I said "maximum" The pressure values were measured by installing a pressure gauge into one of the Lusso's portafilters, sealing the basket to the portafilter, and bleeding all of the water out of the portafilter and chamber above the portafilter. The measurements are for static pressure, not for pressure during brewing, which will be lower since water and coffee is flowing out of the spouts.

-Greg

[frege]

Cannonfodder- in my experience the Elektra Microcasa does NOT work better with a "higher dose." When I have less than, say, 5mm of headroom (grind of 6 or 7 clicks above "zero" on my Rocky, which is FINER than I ever used for my pump machine), I choke the machine and/or end up with crema-less crap. Try dosing less.

It must be awful to get so much contradictory advice- some say use a coarser grind and a light tamp. I've never had success with either of these. I use a very fine grind (as I say, finer than I'd used with my pump), lower dose, and an aggressive tamp. And since I've read Greg's story, I've been doing a 2- to 3-second preinfusion. I've been loving my shots lately.

[cannonfodder]

But half the fun of learning is experimenting. When I say updosed, I am putting 16 grams of coffee in the basket, so that would depend on your definition of updosed. I have run from 12 to 16 gram so far but these are very prelim impressions.

I was using a light roast and getting pretty good shots but I have changed to a slightly darker roast and the cup is barking 'Hot Hot' so I may turn down the pressurestat. I thought it was high to start with. It is running around 1.3 bar. With my temp controlled Factory I can adjust the pressure at will. I find the minimum pressure on it to be 0.8 bar to get sufficient boiler pressure to fill the brew chamber. I may tweak it down to one bar on the Elektra.

Another item of much discussion is the one pull, two pull, pump it like you life depended on it techniques. One habit I developed years ago is to raise (or in this case lower) the lever until just before the water flows, lock in, raise (or lower) until the piston chamber is full then start the pull. You can clearly hear when the piston is full, that is around 4-5 seconds on the Elektra.

I also go with a single pull on the lever, most of the time. If I do go with multiple pulls I only let the lever travel until the first drops start to form and then reload. When I have tried a half pull then reload, my shots appear to suffer. Other discussions have linked this to air disrupting the puck as you raise the lever. Jim is the expert in laminar flow, but maybe that sudden negative pressure disrupts the fines migration in the puck. That disruption then adversely affects the remaining extraction. Whatever the reason, my taste buds are leaning toward the single pull flavor.

Another thought, keep in mind the core market for most of these machines. They are manufactured in Italy for a primarily European market. The norm is a single shot which a single pull on the lever appears to be tuned for. I need to do some testing on that theory.

[narc]

"Better" is a judgment based in part on personal preference.

Definitely agree when it comes to taste. With a limited experience using the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (PVL) and a few years of experience with the Elektra Micro Casa a Leva (MCaL) I'm not going to even consider which machine is "better" than the other. So far, the machines are pulling distinctly different types of espresso. I perceive the differences as positives. Each lending its own character to the drink.

[calb]

Another thought, keep in mind the core market for most of these machines. They are manufactured in Italy for a primarily European market. The norm is a single shot which a single pull on the lever appears to be tuned for.

Unfortunately a single pull will hardly deliver a single shot (at least with the Pavoni Europiccola), rather a (smallish) ristretto shot.

[HB]

In the case of the Lusso, the brewing pressure at the start of the extraction is a maximum of 100 psi, declining to a maximum of 50 psi at the end of the piston stroke.

This is consistent with Lino's estimates of the Microcasa's starting and ending brew pressure of 6 bar (87 PSI) and 4 bar (58 PSI) respectively. As an aside, he replaced the spring in Bob Barraza's old Microcasa, but was unable to source one with precisely the correct length. The replacement was a little bit longer and a lot harder to coerce into place (his publicly reported comments are limited to "I wouldn't want to do that again!").

Back to the Smackdown, this weekend I pulled lots of Paradise Roasters' Espresso Havana:



Don't confuse this with the Havana Reserve; the similarity ends at the name. Espresso Havana is roasted dark. The oils were clearly showing three days post roast when it arrived last Friday. The session started with the Vibiemme Domobar Super. Below are my taste notes and scoring using the standards defined for SCAA barista competitions against the best drinks of the session for each setup:

Vibiemme Domobar Super:

Rich, thick crema with deep tobacco flavors. Palate coating, heavy. Although the roast is dark, roast notes are muted; there's not even the slightest hint of ashiness. Pleasant finish of berry/fruit.

crema color: 4.0, crema consistency and persistence: 3.5, taste balance: 4.0, tactile balance: 4.0

Ponte Vecchio Lusso:

Surprising front brightness with tobacco finish, nearly an inversion of the Vibiemme taste experience. Medium body. Absolutely zero bitterness, zero ashiness. A very pleasant drink.

crema color: 2.5, crema consistency and persistence: 3.0, taste balance: 4.0, tactile balance: 2.0

Encouraged by the good pours, I added the Elektra Microcasa a Leva to the lineup. I thought it would require a grind setting close to the Lusso's, but it was actually a couple clicks finer, which cost a couple sink(ish) shots. Narc comments above that "So far, the [Lusso and Microcasa] are pulling distinctly different types of espresso," but that wasn't my experience. It's trickier to compare them head-to-head because the Microcasa's brew temperature is a moving target. The "window of opportunity" was fairly wide because I dropped Elektra's pressurestat setting to ~0.9 bar; I came to fully appreciate the Lusso's temperature predictability. That is, the Lusso's first extraction tends to run afield, later extractions stay within an acceptable range (as of yet unmeasured; I would guess it wanders a 3-4F degree range). My abbreviated scores:

Elektra Microcasa a Leva:

Early espressos exhibited similar tobacco/fruit characteristics as the Lusso; as the brew temperature rose, the flavors flattened. The crema of the first few shots showed nice tiger striping and flecking, fading to monochromatic as the grouphead overheated.

crema color: 3.5, crema consistency and persistence: 3.0, taste balance: 4.0, tactile balance: 2.0

Although the top-most taste balance scores were the same for these three machines, they certainly didn't taste alike. Paradise Roasters' describes Havana Espresso as "Deep and smokey - a heavy bodied espresso that can stand up to milk or a fine cigar," which was abundantly true for the Vibiemme. The levers reduced the body significantly and lightened the deep tobacco flavors, perhaps explaining why I perceived their espressos as brighter.

Usually when I've reviewing a piece of equipment, I'll hold my thoughts in reserve until I'm confident that my observations could reliably be reproduced by others. Since this is a "Smackdown", I'll loosen up and toss out a completely unsupported assertion: The combination of the high "humped" brew pressure profile, smoothness of the brew pressure, and lower/declining brew pressure of spring-powered lever espresso machines are the major factors contributing to the enhanced clarity and smoothness (Andy, sorry for using that word!) frequently noted in lever machine discussions. Manual lever machines operated by a skilled barista will produce espressos that are equivalent to their pump-driven cousins in terms of crema / body.

Which produces a "better" espresso? A pump driven E61 like the Vibiemme or spring driven lever machines like the Microcasa or Lusso? It's a loaded question, I know...

If high body espresso with loads of crema volume, gorgeous color, and rich consistency are your thing, it's an easy win for the E61 tribe. If it's all about taste, the answer is less definitive. In my opinion, some blends play to the strengths of lever machines. For example, Espresso Havana morphed under the influence of the spring-powered lever, becoming a brighter, fruitier blend with subdued tobacco notes. That is, a darker roasted coffee that I'd expect to have less varietal characteristics brewed more like its lighter roasted counterpart. On the other hand, so-called "comfort espressos" that are very popular these days (lots of chocolates, heavy body) play against the spring-lever's strengths and right into the hands of the E61 crowd.

So which produces a better espresso? Unsatisfying as it may be, my answer to-date is: It depends on what espresso characteristics you treasure, and what blends you typically choose.