Lever Espresso Machines Smackdown - Page 6

[Fullsack]

If you have specific suggestions on how we can do a better job, or wish to offer your own findings, please do so.

I do.

I think coffee and water are dead, and they don't give a ratsass what device shoves the dead water through the dead coffee - lever, pump, or banjo.

This statement leaves no room for the possibility, that the ability to manually control and the ability to vary that control, could somehow improve the shot. This is reminiscent of the rigid stance taken by the flat line temperature advocates prior to another_jim's revelation, in his Semiautomatica review, that a range of temperatures may actually improve shot quality.

It doesn't take into account the talents of lever users, who for years, have continually improved their skills with lever machines

[cannonfodder]

You should grind about 12grams of coffee for the double basket.

I've actually found that a small amount of overdosing helps a lot...

It's a real stretch to call 12g overdosing (or even updosing).

This Pavoni must be a pre millenium model. On my millenium it is no problem to get around 15-16g in the double basket. Mind you this is with a larger 51mm group and deeper basket by far.

Something that might be a good idea for the reviewers using this older model is to get an Elektra Microcasa a Leva double basket to use with the pavoni. It allows more coffee to be used, possibly bringing the ability to make true doubles. Something to think about.

The La Pavoni (Gaggia Factory) I have is the millennium grouped machine. The stock double basket will take 13 grams of coffee using the ubiquitous over fill and level off the top method, more if you give it a little tap to settle the grounds. I do not normally put that much coffee in the basket. I have to weigh the basket (I dose by sight) to see what I am dosing but I would guess it is around 11-12 grams in the 51mm basket.

In a previous post I measured both the Elektra and Pavoni double baskets and was surprised to find that both hold relatively close amounts of coffee. While the Elektra uses a small group the basket is deeper, the 51mm LaPav basket is larger in diameter but shallower.

I think I get a better cup from the Factory when doing multiple pulls, or partial pulls in my case vs the Elektra. When doing a multi pump pull I will allow the puck to preinfuse under boiler pressure for 5-6 seconds, pull a half stroke, then gently raise the lever and hold it for another 2-3 seconds before pulling the full shot. That allows the piston chamber to refill with water and I get one and a half ounce (give or take a little) shot. I think I still get a better shot with a single uninterrupted pull but that puts the shot in the ristretto range.

[timo888]

Let the caffeine flow

If one's daily squeeze, for years, has been a modern pump machine, then one has learned by heart many barista techniques optimized for that modern platform which won't transfer well to a vintage (or vintage-design) domestic spring lever (VDSL). The VDSL has a smaller water draw, a basket with different geometry, a lower brew pressure that tapers off, and does not go about preinfusion the way a modern pump machine does.

This is not to cast aspersions on users of modern pump machines, but the LMWDP handbook requires me to remind you, "with glare in eye and out-thrust chin" that if you think you can transfer pump-oriented barista techniques, unmodified, to a VDSL, you are headed for disappointment. While it's certainly fair to compare the espresso made on the VDSL with the espresso produced by a modern machine, fairness also requires adaptation of technique. The barista techniques themselves are not writ in stone; the machines are not built around them. It's the other way around.

Regards
Timo

[gscace]

This statement leaves no room for the possibility, that the ability to manually control and the ability to vary that control, could somehow improve the shot. This is reminiscent of the rigid stance taken by the flat line temperature advocates prior to another_jim's revelation, in his Semiautomatica review, that a range of temperatures may actually improve shot quality.

It doesn't take into account the talents of lever users, who for years, have continually improved their skills with lever machines

Coffee and water don't care if pressure is varied over time or volume by pump, person, banjo, as long as the feedback loop is properly closed, and as long as the right parameters are being used to control the feedback loop. You can make arguments about whether or not the right parameters are being judged. I think that one of the potential advantages of manual extraction is that the barista can quickly shift between parameters being judged.

[HB]

It doesn't take into account the talents of lever users, who for years, have continually improved their skills with lever machines

That's all well and good, but practical matters require that I focus on what a typical home barista can reproduce in their own home without years and years of experience. This approach to reviews works out well for me because I consider myself an "average" home barista who only happens to have more espresso equipment in his house than average, plus the site can publish a few reviews a year instead of one every three to four years.

...if you think you can transfer pump-oriented barista techniques, unmodified, to a VDSL, you are headed for disappointment. While it's certainly fair to compare the espresso made on the VDSL with the espresso produced by a modern machine, fairness also requires adaptation of technique. The barista techniques themselves are not writ in stone; the machines are not built around them. It's the other way around.

I learned long ago that barista techniques have to be adapted to the equipment before you-- that's one of the primary values of the Buyer's Guide --but thanks for the reminder.

[Fullsack]

That's all well and good, but practical matters require that I focus on what a typical home barista can reproduce in their own home without years and years of experience. This approach to reviews works out well for me because I consider myself an "average" home barista who only happens to have more espresso equipment in his house than average, plus the site can publish a few reviews a year instead of one every three to four years.

No argument there, but a disconnect occurs when a seasoned pump machine user with limited lever machine skills, compares his pump machine to a lever machine.

[HB]

No argument there, but a disconnect occurs when a seasoned pump machine user with limited lever machine skills, compares his pump machine to a lever machine.

Thanks for clarifying, I think we'll be able to handle it.

[narc]

Just finished reading the last 3 pages on this thread.

This just my personal view coming from someone with 25 years of using a pump machine if you include the "Dark Ages" with the Gaggia Coffee. The last ~6 years with a more contemporary E61/HX machine (isomac tea) , ~5 years with a MicroCasa a Leva (MCaL) and <1 month with a Ponte Vecchio Lusso 2(PVL).

The comparisons between pump & lever are important to people who are thinking about acquiring a lever machine. I found gscace's evaluation of the PVL, including his investigation into what may be the reasons why PVL pulls the shots it does helpful & interesting. Happy someone is really into tweaking gear to nth degree.

To state the obvious, there are just many more variables to control in a lever machine. Between the two lever machines I own it seems like to pull the optimal espresso specific to the particular machine requires different "technique". By technique I'm including the total process from grind to extraction. I have my strong doubts that you will be able to duplicate the cup pulled from a MCal by the PVL. Or the reverse. Relatively unique characteristics in the espresso pulled from these different machines IMO is a good thing. The world of espresso would be boring if all machines duplicated each others shots.

I've decided that using lever machines means you are always in the process of learning and relearning. For some reason I feel more satisfied when the exceptional shot is pulled relative to hitting the button on the pump machine. Have I become a lever snob/geek/dweeb?

Looking forward to future discussion, evaluations of this group of lever machines.

[peacecup]

I have not read the past two pages yet, but I'm glad the material is coming so fast. I will do so, but at the risk of repeating, here are some thoughts I had this AM:

Consider that the potential buyer is thinking about spending $500-1000 on a machine, probably at least his/her second machine. When I was about to buy my lever machine I was comparing to something like a Silvia, but the more expensive levers might compare to others. I realize some of this has already been covered, but how does the lever compare to a pump machine in this price range, in terms of:

1. Reliability - anything gone wrong yet? How is it built - is it worth my hard-earned cash. How often will I need to ship it back to 1-rst Line for repair? How much are parts? Can I do it myself? I have pulled 3-4 shots per day on my Export for two years, and have done nothing but put a drop of olive oil on top the piston, on the brew group gasket, and in the rubber feet.
2. Repeatability - I, for one, have found it very easy to dial in my Ponte Vecchio - if I follow the same procedure each time I can expect very consistent results.
3. Usability out of the box - are there a lot of minor things that need to be tweaked?
4. Support - online or phone resources for problems, brewing advice
5. Quality, quantity, taste of espresso (obviously subjective, and has been well-discussed already)
6. User experience - how do you like the hands-on approach? The quiet, mess, etc. I personally cringe every time a hear a pump machine now (or an electric grinder), but of course this is a personal preference.

Thanks,

PC

[RapidCoffee]

This Pavoni must be a pre millenium model. On my millenium it is no problem to get around 15-16g in the double basket. Mind you this is with a larger 51mm group and deeper basket by far.

Something that might be a good idea for the reviewers using this older model is to get an Elektra Microcasa a Leva double basket to use with the pavoni. It allows more coffee to be used, possibly bringing the ability to make true doubles. Something to think about.

Not true. This is the newer model La Pavoni with the 51mm basket. My comments clearly state that 12g is not overdosing. I can also pack 16g into the double basket.

[RapidCoffee]

Consider that the potential buyer is thinking about spending $500-1000 on a machine, probably at least his/her second machine. When I was about to buy my lever machine I was comparing to something like a Silvia, but the more expensive levers might compare to others. I realize some of this has already been covered, but how does the lever compare to a pump machine in this price range...

This is a valid point. The $600 La Pavoni compares pricewise to a Silvia; a high-end rotary pump fully plumbed E61 machine like my Vetrano costs 2-3X as much. If it makes you feel any better, in comparison with an E61 HX machine, I'd be making uncomplimentary noises about the Silvia too.

[Jarno]

It is the Hatfields reviewing the McCoys

I didn't mean for my earlier comments to be construed that my lever produces an inferior espresso to the fully automated double boiler systems. Actually I'm quite satisfied with what I can produce. I think from the forum's comments that there are many different flavors that can be had from coffee if one had very tight controls over the variables that these modern machines can offer. I think it is only my curiosity to experiment/play and to see for myself what the fuss is about rather than looking for "better" espresso.

If I were given a thousand dollars and told to "fit the espresso maker in the budget" I think I would be very happy with my lever machine/grinder combo as well as with a good thermometer.

[RapidCoffee]

I'm not obsessing! I just like getting pretty crema. Coffee's a visual experience too- all cuisine is. Everything we consume is.

I agree! The key to good crema on a manual lever appears to be simple: pull hard! I've started pulling much harder than 30-40#, pretty much throwing as much weight as possible on the lever (maybe 50-60#?), and I'm getting much more crema.


More crema shifts the flavor balance from strong coffee towards espresso.

[RapidCoffee]

In my opinion 14-15 g of coffee to 0.5 oz of espresso (i.e. one pull) is too great a brew ratio. The choice therefore is to lower the dose and take one pull, which many of you seem to like better, or to dose fuller and take multiple pulls. I personally don't like smaller doses in the double basket, so if I want a one-pull shot I use the 7-g single basket.

Pulling good two- or three-pull 15g, 1-1.5 oz. doppios on the Ponte Vecchio requires a little practice, and experimenting with the grind, dose, and tamp. But simply giving up is not an option.

I'm working with La Pavoni, so these comments may not apply to Ponte Vecchio pulls. However, I do find your reported volumes on the low side. With the Fellini move (preinfusion), I can produce an ounce of espresso with a single pull, yielding a brew ratio squarely in the standard espresso range (40-60%):


14g dose in double basket


Yields about an ounce of espresso with a single pull.


Brew ratio is exactly 50%

At this point in my lever odyssey, I just don't see the need for multiple pulls on La Pavoni.

[Kaffee Bitte]

Not true. This is the newer model La Pavoni with the 51mm basket. My comments clearly state that 12g is not overdosing. I can also pack 16g into the double basket.

Gotcha. Sorry was kind of speeding through the reading and posting before I had somewhere to be.
Keep it coming.

[peacecup]

I don't understand the brew ratio system very well. I can read the numbers, but I don't understand how your 30 ml shot can end up with a 50% brew ratio? Going by volume, AndyS chart claims it should be somewhere over 60%, i.e. a double ristretto. Does this mean you are under-extracting, and getting less solids, thereby resulting in a lower total weight?

I've always used Illy's 7g to 30 ml (1 oz) as a guide to a typical solo, and 14g:60 ml as a typical doppio. This fits right into the volume part of the table, but I have never weighed my shots to check the brew ratio.

Something just doesn't make sense here...

PC

[HB]

I've always used Illy's 7g to 30 ml (1 oz) as a guide to a typical solo, and 14g:60 ml as a typical doppio. This fits right into the volume part of the table, but I have never weighed my shots to check the brew ratio.

Illy is calling out volume (30 and 60ml), Andy is calling out weight. I prefer Andy's system because the drink's weight is not affected by rambunctious crema production.

Example: 14 grams dry coffee used to make 28 grams liquid espresso. Brewing ratio is 14/28 = 50%.

[timo888]

Can one of you guys put 10g in the Lusso's double basket, pull a single-pull shot (with the grind and tamp loose enough that you see a drop in the cup under 1.1-1.2 bar boiler pressure alone) and then weigh the beverage, using two different roasts, a very light 100% arabica espresso roast such as Barefoot Redwood, and a dark roast such as Caffe D'Arte Taormina, which uses robusta?

Regards
Timo

P.S. And then run a comparable experiment on a pump machine, dosing the basket to the same proportion of its overall volume? You could then compare the brew ratios of the two machines and get a fairly objective index into their differences, which I think would largely be the result of their brew pressure differences, since the 10g dose and light tamp diminish the differences in basket height-to-width ratio.

[RapidCoffee]

I don't understand the brew ratio system very well. I can read the numbers, but I don't understand how your 30 ml shot can end up with a 50% brew ratio? Going by volume, AndyS chart claims it should be somewhere over 60%, i.e. a double ristretto. Does this mean you are under-extracting, and getting less solids, thereby resulting in a lower total weight?

I've always used Illy's 7g to 30 ml (1 oz) as a guide to a typical solo, and 14g:60 ml as a typical doppio. This fits right into the volume part of the table, but I have never weighed my shots to check the brew ratio.

Something just doesn't make sense here...

Water weighs 1g/ml, and espresso is mostly water. But crema changes things. I'm generally pulling shots on my Vetrano that run slightly under 2oz (about 50ml) and pour as 100% crema. Some of the crema subsides by the time the shot is finished, but it's still 80-90% crema (e.g., see pix on page 1 of this thread). The shot volume may be reduced by half (to about 30ml) when the crema has completely subsided, especially when using a bottomless portafilter. Its weight, however, will change very little with release of CO2 in the crema.

As many have noted, lever shots tend to have significantly less crema. If you pull a 30-35ml lever shot that reduces in volume to 25-30ml after the crema subsides, it will weigh close to 30g - similar to that 50ml bottomless pour from a pump machine.

So unless you're willing to let the crema subside (and sacrifice the pour ), the weight of the shot is a more reliable measure than its volume. That's why I've been a fan of AndyS's brew ratios from the beginning. Another reason: weight measurements with a decent scale are much more precise than volume measurements in a shot glass.

BTW, the Italian Espresso National Institute (Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano) claims 25ml volume for a 7g single dose. Of course, they also claim 9 bars pressure...

[peacecup]

Thanks Dan and John, this confirms what I thought I knew.

SO....when I say that in my opinion, a 14-g, one-pull shot (~15 ml) on the Ponte Vecchio is too great a brew ratio, this is a ~100% shot. These do taste good, but they can hardly be compared to a 50% shot can they? They are different beasts.

On the Pavoni I could pull the 50% shots with one pull. These can be done with the single basket on the PV, (7g to 15 ml) but not with one pull on the double basket unless you dose very low (maybe 10g to 20 ml). It may just be me, but whenever I try pulling shots with a basket half full or less the results are poor. I've always attributed this to the puck being disturbed, but I have no real evidence for this. Thus, I have perfected my two-pull technique, and I don't feel that the shots suffer. In fact, they're better that just about anything I've ever gotten at a cafe, including some well-know shops in Seattle.

PC