Leaving coffee beans in hopper

[mturkel99]

Assuming beans are roasted within the week. Is there any benefit in keeping them in the paper/plastic airtight bag as opposed to leaving them in the hopper?

[mogogear]

IMHO- I don't know if this is a method used by all - but generally most members seem to keep beans in an airtight container. This helps retard oxidizing and affection of ambient humidity etc. In addition the hopper is dosed per shot or series of shots.

The time between grinding coffee and dosing into the PF is kept as brief as possible as well. Maybe 15 seconds to say 30 seconds. This all to preserve the natural aromatics for the cup.

This sounds a little AR- and is by some measure. I am sure there is a variation amongst members regarding which detail is the most important to them.

I am sure we all can attest that fresh beans is one of the Holy Grails we seem to collectively pursue.

Others?

[edwa]

In addition to what mogogear writes I think you'll find that the inside of your hopper starts to get very oily and then you'll be adding new beans to that. Do yourself a favor and do a comparison. Put a pound in an airtight container in cool dark place and pull from it only what you need for the moment then return it to its hiding place. Make notes of the characteristics of the shots over the week. Then for the next week put them in the hopper as usual. I believe you will find that at the end of the week the hopper stored beans will have a lot less life to them to say nothing of the taste.

[HB]

A day or two supply of coffee beans in the hopper doesn't bother me. Anything more than that, I store in a Mason jar -- either the small 4 ounce size or the larger 8 ounce size if I'm testing. Some members prefer to single dose "hopperless" and I did that at one time. Nowadays I pull 4-6 espressos each session to spread out experimentation over weeks instead of an intense weekend, so I always use the hopper.

[mturkel99]

Any reason for the smaller jar? I normally purchase locally roasted beans in 1 pound quantities

[HB]

Any reason for the smaller jar?

Why else? To maximize the freshness.

Ideally once I open a bag, I split it into small mason jars (approximately six jars for one pound) and store half of them in the freezer. The larger mason jars hold almost half a pound. Out of laziness, I use them most of the time. If I don't finish them before the week's up, no problem, they're already packed. If a couple weeks have gone by and I still haven't finished them, I give them to my neighbors. They like good coffee, but they're not as picky as me.

[malachi]

I dump a pound into the machine at a time.
Then again... I go through about a pound every three days.

My argument is simple...

1) Even when stored in "optimal" circumstances (as Dan describes) I don't find espresso drinkable outside of a 3 day window (starting at day 2-5 depending on coffee).

2) I clean the hopper between each batch so oil build-up is not an issue.

3) I find that low bean volume in the hopper results in inferior grind quality.

[Ken Fox]

I dump a pound into the machine at a time.
Then again... I go through about a pound every three days.

My argument is simple...

1) Even when stored in "optimal" circumstances (as Dan describes) I don't find espresso drinkable outside of a 3 day window (starting at day 2-5 depending on coffee).

I think there is a lot of variability in this, and it depends a lot on the specific coffee and roast level. In changing my roast profiling recently, I accidentally "incinerated" some recent roast batches. Surprisingly, they were quite drinkable as SO espressos from about days 2-4 or 2-5, but immediately thereafter began tasting like a charcoal briquet. Contrarywise, I have done some very very light roasts that were vibrant and (in my view, excellent) for SO espresso for periods as long as 7-9 days (say days 2-11 post roast, at best). I would leave those beans in the hopper for a couple or 3 days, but not for that entire period.

3) I find that low bean volume in the hopper results in inferior grind quality.

This is a point I have tried to make repeatedly on posts dealing with the use of commercial grinders for individual shot dosing, a practice that I feel impacts the resulting beverage negatively, e.g. operating most commercial grinders without a bean column on top of the beans that are being ground.

ken

[malachi]

This is a point I have tried to make repeatedly on posts dealing with the use of commercial grinders for individual shot dosing, a practice that I feel impacts the resulting beverage negatively, e.g. operating most commercial grinders without a bean column on top of the beans that are being ground.

Yup.
Been fighting this battle myself for years - to no avail.
It's a bad idea but a lot of folks seem to prefer low waste to high quality coffee.
Shrug.

[Ken Fox]

Yup.
Been fighting this battle myself for years - to no avail.
It's a bad idea but a lot of folks seem to prefer low waste to high quality coffee.
Shrug.

I don't even think it is (primarily) a waste issue. The reason why people do this is that they convince themselves that they must have 3 or 4 (or more) types of roasted coffee available all the time, and they must consume them all the same day, ground from the same grinder. If you buy into that idea, in my opinion, the only way to really do that well is to be willing to use ~50g of coffee beans for each shot. The first 10g is used to clean out the previous coffee, and the last 20g or so to weigh down the bean column. That works, but is obviously hugely wasteful.

Instead, people try to use 25g to get their desired 20g, or 20g to get a desired 15g.

What I do, which is completely irrational, is I have 3 grinders. Most people have more common sense than to buy 3 commercial grinders or to tie up that much kitchen counterspace, but that is a real solution if one is searching for it.

I would absolutely love to see a real study using scanning electron microscopy to evaluate the grind size distributions when coffee is ground with a bean column above and without. People compensate for the absence of a bean column, most of the time, by fining up the grind. But what does that do to the bean fragment distribution? My opinion is, probably nothing good.

ken

[AndyS]

I would absolutely love to see a real study using scanning electron microscopy to evaluate the grind size distributions when coffee is ground with a bean column above and without. People compensate for the absence of a bean column, most of the time, by fining up the grind. But what does that do to the bean fragment distribution? My opinion is, probably nothing good.

I tend to agree, but haven't tested it much. What is interesting is that Versalab specifically recommends that their grinder be used without any beans on top.

[cafeIKE]

What is interesting is that Versalab specifically recommends that their grinder be used without any beans on top.

Chicken or egg?

[AndyS]

Chicken or egg?

Ike, help me out here. Maybe I get your point, maybe not.

[cafeIKE]

Ike, help me out here. Maybe I get your point, maybe not.

I'm not disparaging the Versalab as I've never laid eyes on one

IIRC, the Versalab uses a DRM burrset. Other high capacity grinders that use a similar burrset use a hopper.
The Versalab is designed for the enthusiast, many of whom load the grinder by the shot.

Is Versalab's recommendation because it makes the best grind or because it's what the owner wants?

FWIW, I've closed the circle and leave beans in the hopper. IMO, it makes for a more consistent, full bodied shot.

[cannonfodder]

I keep around 3 days worth in the hopper. As others have mentioned, I find it not only convenient but necessary with conical grinders. The grind most definitely shifts as you reach the end of the beans. Once dialed in, I need next to no adjustments but as I get to the last two shots worth of beans in the bottom of the hopper, I continually tighten the grind by a couple of notches or more to maintain the grind consistency, or more specifically the shot consistency. My flat burr grinder does not appear to suffer as much from the end of bean run out.

A 3 day supply for me is a half pound. If I am running a pound of the same blend then I refill the hopper every day to maintain the same level in the hopper. I also store my beans in an air tight container.

[cafeIKE]

My flat burr grinder does not appear to suffer as much from the end of bean run out.

On the M4, it's either two turns finer or two grams of coffee to keep the same shot time.
Neither gives the same taste.

[JonR10]

This is a VERY interesting topic for me....I'm intrigued on multiple levels.

The reason why people do this is that they convince themselves that they must have 3 or 4 (or more) types of roasted coffee available all the time, and they must consume them all the same day, ground from the same grinder.

Hmm....Are there people who have told you this was the reasoning?

If you buy into that idea, in my opinion, the only way to really do that well is to be willing to use ~50g of coffee beans for each shot. The first 10g is used to clean out the previous coffee, and the last 20g or so to weigh down the bean column.

Does this mean that 20g in the hopper or grinder throat is enough to weigh down the bean column satisfactorily? Wouldn't such a small quantity cause variation from the percentage loss as the shot gets ground? It would seem to me that if one was to try to reduce variation using bean column above the burrs then the more mass available the smaller the variations would be as the column is consumed.

I would absolutely love to see a real study using scanning electron microscopy to evaluate the grind size distributions when coffee is ground with a bean column above and without.

I would also like to see some objective evidence of any kind.


Y'all please feel free to set me straight. Lord knows I could use someone to help me understand

[Ken Fox]

This is a VERY interesting topic for me....I'm intrigued on multiple levels.


I would also like to see some objective evidence of any kind.


Y'all please feel free to set me straight. Lord knows I could use someone to help me understand

Many have posted here and elsewhere that they use a single grinder to make shots from several different types of coffee per day.

20g for weighting down beans is an estimate based upon what I have seen with my own grinders; your's may be different. This is approximately the amount that I have found is necessary to weigh down the beans being ground by the burrs in order to avoid any needed change in grind setting for the situation where the hopper is used in a "normal" fashion.

ken

[bcquinn1]

I completely agree that loading the hopper in my grinder (a Cimbali Jr.) is crucial (at least for me) in getting a consistent grind.

I used to keep it empty, and only load it on a per shot basis... until the thought occurred to me that pressure above the beans being ground might make a difference. On a whim I dumped 12 ounces of beans into the hopper, and two things immediately struck me: 1) I suddenly needed to coarsen the grind setting and 2) I had a step-function improvement in the consistency and quality of my extractions. Honestly, night and day.

As for the amount of beans you need to maintain sufficient pressure, I'm not sure. I probably have between 40g and 80 g at any given time above the beans being ground. In the Cimbali Jr., there's a small plastic circular chute above the throat of the grinder, that's open around the sides as well as the top. I just top that up each morning. Anything beyond that just starts to fill the rest of the hopper (e.g., around the chute), and I don't think that really applies more pressure than the beans sitting in the throat and the chute. And I don't notice a difference when I'm at 40g vs. 80g of additional coffee in the chute. How's that for scientific rigor?

[CoffeeOwl]

This is a VERY interesting topic for me....

Yes for me too.
The grind setting should be adjusted with running empty grinder. Now, weather conditions change from morning to evening even though it's winter and sometimes I have open window or a humiditor on etc. Then the conclusion is: the units are all inadequate for home use (anyway this is what is in the manuals written with big bold red letters).
I will buy Versalab one day (but I want Hottop first) - it is designed in such way that it is irrelevant if there are any beans in its (optional) hopper.