Leaving coffee beans in hopper - Page 2

[woodchuck]

FWIW I run about three to four days worth of coffee in the hopper (about 1/2 a pound). The next batch comes out of the freezer , thaws out and gets poured on top of the previous batch. I change coffees about once a week. That's the time I give the grinder a really good cleaning and start again. I have a Macap M4 and find the grind pretty consistent with minor tweaks for coffee aging and humidity changes ... Cheers Ian

[JonR10]

The grind setting should be adjusted with running empty grinder. Now, weather conditions change from morning to evening even though it's winter and sometimes I have open window or a humiditor on etc. Then the conclusion is: the units are all inadequate for home use (anyway this is what is in the manuals written with big bold red letters).

Interesting point.

I believe that the reasons I first started to run single shots (empty hopper) were to minimize waste and to be able to make adjustments with the grinder running empty, and thus enable me to make truly precise adjustments on consecutive shots without grinding up a bunch of wasted coffee. In this way I can measure my dose into the throat of the grinder and when I clear it through I have my desired dose in the basket with only wisps of waste left behind in the grinder (fractions of a gram, at worst)

It seems to me that if I choose to run my hopper with (for example) 1/2 pound of beans in it all the time then I would need to measure my doses coming out of the doser. To me this would seem to involve much more waste because there's no way to precisely grind just the amount I want so I'll always end up with excess in the doser at the end of my session. Maybe with a precise timer I could guesstimate the grind quantity closer?

As I narrowed down the short list for this last grinder upgrade, I considered the Anfim Super Caimano with the hitech timer upgrade. I presume that the timer was developed for this very purpose (in my limited understanding it's precisely tweakable)

[jesawdy]

It seems to me that if I choose to run my hopper with (for example) 1/2 pound of beans in it all the time then I would need to measure my doses coming out of the doser. To me this would seem to involve much more waste because there's no way to precisely grind just the amount I want so I'll always end up with excess in the doser at the end of my session. Maybe with a precise timer I could guesstimate the grind quantity closer?

Jon-

My advice would be to give a try for a week or so and see what you think. You may love it or you may hate it.

I started out on the Rocky, and dosed the hopper and ground until empty. I gave it up fairly quickly as it was an extra step, and I also found that I could eyeball the dose pretty well from the doserless Rocky. I use ridgeless baskets and a 0.1 gram scale to confirm as needed. My waste ground coffee went into a small square Pyrex dish under the exit chute. Typically, in two weeks time, I'd have a little more than a doubles worth of waste in that dish.... just in time for a seasoning shot after a chemical backflush, no waste (you may like to chemical backflush more or less frequently, I prefer to water backflush every session, to each his own).

On my Cimbali grinders, same thing, only now my waste goes to the grinds tray. Give yourself some time to see what sort of waste accumulates over a week or two's time... I think you will find that it doesn't amount to much most of the time.

As for an accurate timer.... I just count in my head, brush the retained grinds from the chute and empty the doser into the portafilter, typically gets close enough for me. Little to no waste, grinder ready to go for the next shot or next session. Again, use a scale to confirm or "recalibrate" periodically. Grind/dose a bit more or level with a bent finger to adjust. Voila! (underdosing or "proper" dosing may give some headaches in adjusting the dose with your finger)

[JonR10]

On my Cimbali grinders, same thing, only now my waste goes to the grinds tray. Give yourself some time to see what sort of waste accumulates over a week or two's time... I think you will find that it doesn't amount to much most of the time.

As always I appreciate good advice.

So how do you handle dialing in a new blend? ( for example, today I was given a pound of Klatch WBC Blend). I assume it must be done with plenty of beans in the hopper, and then if a shot runs too fast or slow you'd have to grind through as you adjust the grind and then you'd have to clear all that ground coffee for the next trial shot. If it takes 2-3 shots to get close, it seems to me it seems that would add up to alot of waste....

[HB]

...if a shot runs too fast or slow you'd have to grind through as you adjust the grind and then you'd have to clear all that ground coffee for the next trial shot.

Are you typically that far off? Most coffees I use are within a couple notches of each other. I know manufacturers and vendors say "Thou shall not move thy grinder setting" unless the motor is running, but if I'm moving the setting a couple millimeters, I don't worry about the burrs binding.

[JonR10]

Are you typically that far off?

When I run my own or similarly-roasted blends I'm usually VERY close....but when I run much lighter roasts or darker oily roasts then it usually takes me at least 2-3 shots to get dialed in. As an extreme case, when I ran the Paradise espresso it took me several shots to get acceptable timing.

This is my concern today with the Klatch roast in my hands, it's lighter than my norm


EDIT - Please remember also that I just got a new grinder and I don't have a great feel for how difference much a 1-turn adjustment really makes. I tried a few shots today with some bean column and the results were interesting....but i also burned through quite alot of beans (this conical grinds FAST!)


Today, with just a couple shots' worth in the throat there was no discernable difference. With twice that amount my "normale" setting poured more like a "ristretto". No measurements and nothing scientific yet, but I can see that there will be a difference keeping beans in the hopper.


EDIT 2 - so far I'm not thrilled with the ++waste. Shot consistency is not an issue for me loading per shot...but it was be an issue today with beans in the hopper because the shot timing changes as the bean column reduces (unless of course I keep a few days' worth at all time and continually top off).

[Ken Fox]

I know manufacturers and vendors say "Thou shall not move thy grinder setting" unless the motor is running, but if I'm moving the setting a couple millimeters, I don't worry about the burrs binding.

I've decided that there is no way a grinder can be damaged by adjusting the grind to become coarser when the burrs are not moving. I can't come up with a way that a grinder would be damaged under that scenario. So, I don't hesitate to adjust coarser with the grinder at idle. I do not do any significant adjustments to a finer setting unless the burrs are moving, but in all honesty I think these commercial grinders are robust enough that this wouldn't matter, either.

ken

[cannonfodder]

EDIT 2 - so far I'm not thrilled with the ++waste. Shot consistency is not an issue for me loading per shot...but it was be an issue today with beans in the hopper because the shot timing changes as the bean column reduces (unless of course I keep a few days' worth at all time and continually top off).

That is what I do.

One of the interesting things about the conical grinders are the small bean to bean adjustments and the day to day changes, or lack there of. I recently ran 3 different blends/SO's in a Robur all in the time span of a few hours (around 9 pounds of coffee). The Robur took a very small adjustment between blends, one shot and I was good to go. I later packed up the grinder, drove 6 hours back home and set it up on my espresso bar.

The next day I dumped in one of my home blends, one shot, one adjustment and I was off and running. A half pound later I had made no adjustments to the grind until I reached the last two shots worth of beans. Knowing that the grind shifts and the shots start to flow quicker, I automatically tighten the grind a couple (or three) notches to compensate. While the shots were not as spot on as the rest of the coffee, it was still very drinkable. I usually use the last shots worth of beans in the grinder to do a seasoning shot after a backflush.

Conicals are a different beast and have they own idiosyncrasies and those vary from brand to brand just like espresso machines. Once you get a little more time on the MK7R you will be able to anticipate the shift and needed adjustments. The waste will go down eventually.

That Klatch WBC blend is something else, the USBC blend is very good as well. I actually preferred the US blend. I should order another pound before it is gone for good.

Almost forgot, when I am adjusting the grind it is usually one or two notches on the Mazzers or one or two clicks on the Cimbali Max. I do not run the grinder during that small change. I do sweep out the grind chute and give the grinder a quick one or two second pulse to clear out the grinds in the burr chamber. On a big burr buzz saw of a bean crusher like the MK7R and Robur that is half a shot of beans. That is the price we pay for the quest for the ultimate espresso. I believe there is a little more waste with most of the conicals, just a passing observation with the Titan grinders and my own bean crusher of death.

[JonR10]

Conicals are a different beast and have they own idiosyncrasies and those vary from brand to brand just like espresso machines. Once you get a little more time on the MK7R you will be able to anticipate the shift and needed adjustments. The waste will go down eventually.

That Klatch WBC blend is something else, the USBC blend is very good as well. I actually preferred the US blend. I should order another pound before it is gone for good.

Sucks to be the profit of my own failures, but the worst case is evident to me this morning.

The Klatch coffee is dramatically different in pour characteristic than my own and I made the mistake of trying to run it on the big conical loaded up instead of using my faithful Super-Jolly. Now because I was trying to run with beans in the hopper the end result was WAY too much wasted coffee.

Perhaps it's just my incompetency in technique but I can honestly say if I was grinding per shot then I would have only burned 2-3 shots worth to dial in. I didn't weigh the waste but it's easily 6-7 doubles. The stepless worm drive takes a few turns to move the collar even one notch.


So for me it's absolutely NOT worthwhile to load up a hopper full of beans and then attempt to dial in a blend. So if I'm going to be switching beans (even occasionally) then I'd refrain from such wasteful practice.

Almost forgot, when I am adjusting the grind it is usually one or two notches on the Mazzers or one or two clicks on the Cimbali Max. I do not run the grinder during that small change.

My Macap has a stepless worm drive, so I guess I'm a little afraid to use that mechanism to FORCE the burrs closer together while they are filled up with grounds being compacted by a bean column above. Forgive me for being a chicken, but the last thing I want to risk is damaging my new investment.

I'm giving this notion up, at least until I go back to running my own blend week-to-week.

I've decided that there is no way a grinder can be damaged by adjusting the grind to become coarser when the burrs are not moving. I can't come up with a way that a grinder would be damaged under that scenario.

Agreed - I would only be concerned about adjusting finer.

[Ken Fox]

Perhaps it's just my incompetency in technique but I can honestly say if I was grinding per shot then I would have only burned 2-3 shots worth to dial in. I didn't weigh the waste but it's easily 6-7 doubles. The stepless worm drive takes a few turns to move the collar even one notch.


So for me it's absolutely NOT worthwhile to load up a hopper full of beans and then attempt to dial in a blend. So if I'm going to be switching beans (even occasionally) then I'd refrain from such wasteful practice.

I don't think there is any difference in waste between the "techniques" if one is dialing in a new coffee. I do this all the time with my Max's, which should be less forgiving than your new conical. It is very rare for me to waste more than one shot's worth in dialing in a new coffee, running the hopper with a couple day's worth of beans in it as my normal practice. One other thing I do (when feasible) is to plan the bean change for first thing in the morning, so that the first shot would go into my once-daily cappa. I will use an espresso shot that is at the margin of acceptability in a cappa, that I might pitch were it in a straight shot. This further cuts down on the potential waste, regardless of grinder loading "technique" used.

I believe that your problem is, as you suggest, unfamiliarity with your new grinder. I would suggest that it is probably best to experiment with new grinding "techniques" when one is using a familiar and inexpensive coffee such as a garden variety homeroast. The same can be said for any significant changes in approach in any part of espresso production. I recently changed my roasting technique and ended up incinerating about 6lbs of very nice green, quite stupid in retrospect. When I went to do a trial roasting session 3 days ago, to "get back on track," I used some coffees that were not particularly special to me, so that if I had to pitch them, it would be no great loss.

I just want to make the point, that there is nothing inherently more wasteful about loading up a hopper vs. dosing into it for each shot, and I continue to think that the grind quality suffers when using the latter technique, in comparison to the former.

ken

[JonR10]

I don't think there is any difference in waste between the "techniques" if one is dialing in a new coffee. I do this all the time with my Max's, which should be less forgiving than your new conical.

Once again Ken, you fail to consider that there things you may not know before writing.

There are differences between the Cimbali and Macap grinders. Consider rate of adjustment (turns/notch) and grams per second being ground up and wasted during the adjustment process. End result = more waste.

Also, if you want to make a "true" adjustment you would consider thread engagement backlash and if you're using a worm drive to adjust a threaded carrier then you have 2 sources of backlash. Best practice would be to let the burrs spin freely and then zero in on your adjustment. If one does this with a huge conical grinder loaded with beans one might very well grind up ALL of your 2 day's supply provided. The best alternative is probably to start at one end and inch up on the setting from one direction (backlash only occurs when changing direction)

It is very rare for me to waste more than one shot's worth in dialing in a new coffee, running the hopper with a couple day's worth of beans in it as my normal practice.

Good for you. It's clear that your skills, abilities, and intellect are superior to mine

I believe that your problem is, as you suggest, unfamiliarity with your new grinder.

This is what I was trying to say. It was an error in judgement on my part.

I just want to make the point, that there is nothing inherently more wasteful about loading up a hopper vs. dosing into it for each shot, and I continue to think that the grind quality suffers when using the latter technique, in comparison to the former.

I disagree about the waste, and I have no evidence for grind quality comparison for myself (yet)

[Ken Fox]

Once again Ken, you fail to consider that there things you may not know before writing.

There are differences between the Cimbali and Macap grinders. Consider rate of adjustment (turns/notch) and grams per second being ground up and wasted during the adjustment process. End result = more waste.

I disagree about the waste, and I have no evidence for grind quality comparison for myself (yet)

I own a Compak K10, whose adjustment mechanism is completely unlike the Cimbalis, so it isn't like I'm unfamiliar with this issue on big conical grinders with different adjustment mechanisms, sir. I used that grinder with many different coffees, switching back and forth, and generally did not waste more than one shot on a change of coffees. But then, maybe I drink shots that you would pitch? I'm much more into how shots taste than how they look.

I did use a homemade hopper on the Compak, but most of the time had a bean weight on top of the burrs. When Jim Schulman was visiting, we used the Compak on a shot by shot basis, also, which is Jim's preferred approach.

I have no further comments to make on your grinder or your experiences with it.

ken

[cannonfodder]

I have the smaller Macap conical at the house right now but I have not used it yet. It sounds like the screw adjustment is much finer threaded than I imagined, assuming one turn of the screw equates to the same burr travel distance between the two grinders. But that is a big assumption on my part.

I know the conicals are sensitive to the amount of beans, or more specifically the amount of weight above the burrs on the coffee column. That is very evident as you reach the end of the beans. At what point that grind starts to shift I do not know. I think we need to keep in mind that these big grinders were designed for business use not home use. In a business environment the hopper will be more full than empty where in a home environment we tend to run them more empty than full. That may make the shift in grind more apparent because we are already at the bottom of the hopper.

The key may simply be keeping the same amount of coffee above the burrs all the time which is what I tend to do. If you normally keep two shots of beans in the hopper, than always keep two shots worth of beans in the hopper and the grind should stay relatively stable. If you dose per shot than always dose per shot and the grind will stay relatively stable, if you keep a tamper on top of the beans then always keep a tamper on top of the bean column, if you (you get the idea, consistency).... Some burr sets may also be more susceptible to the change than others.

[Ken Fox]

I have the smaller Macap conical at the house right now but I have not used it yet.

I think we need to keep in mind that these big grinders were designed for business use not home use. In a business environment the hopper will be more full than empty where in a home environment we tend to run them more empty than full. That may make the shift in grind more apparent because we are already at the bottom of the hopper.

(you get the idea, consistency)....

As we often point out, this commercial equipment (just not large conical grinders, but all commercial grinders; not just grinders, but espresso machines, etc.) was not originally designed for home use. There are advantages to this equipment over home equipment, but also disadvantages. There are ways to mitigate some, but not all, of the disadvantages. Most people with experience will find good ways to get the best out of the equipment they choose to put in their homes.

For people just starting out, it is probably best that we recommend using equipment more or less as it was designed to be used. For commercial grinders, this would be with a bean column above the burrs, as occurs in commercial usage.

ken

[bcquinn1]

When I made the switch from keeping an empty hopper to a partially full one, I felt like I was wasting a lot of coffee as well. Heck, half my problem was learning when to shut the grinder off as I was thwacking the doser (since before I could just let the grinder run until it was empty). First time I tried it I think I ground about 40g of coffee before I managed to shut the thing off (shaking with panic as I remember).

Honestly, if you're trying this out, accept that initially you're going to waste some extra coffee (probably $5 worth, gasp). But give it a week or two and I think you'll find you're not actually wasting much coffee at all as you get the hang of it. As for dialing in new coffees, I think the most I've wasted was about two shots worth of beans. Probably because I still drink shots that are close but not "on," since it helps me to figure out what's not "on" about it. But I've also gotten better at making quick grinder adjustments as the grinder's running, and I've gotten better at guessing a good initial grind setting (which I can set with an empty grinder as I change between coffees).

I really do think there's a significant difference. I've definitely seen it and tasted it in my shots. To put it differently, without a column of beans above the burrs, how can you not have "popcorning" as the grinder empties? How else can you explain the difference in grind a full hopper produces (e.g., almost always producing a finer, as in less coarse, grind)?

[JonR10]

I apologize for venting at you Ken, you are only mildly feeding into my overall frustration. My real frustration is with my error in judgement. I should not have tried a new technique on a new grinder with a new coffee.

When I switched back to grinding per shot I was dialed in on the second shot and no additional wasted coffee from adjustments. From this spot I can make as many small incremental adjustments as I please, and produce lovely shots while exploring the range that the coffee offers.

Sometimes what is familiar is best for the moment...



I do want to thank the posters on this thread for at least trying to offer me some helpful advice. I agree with Ken's previous statements that running with a hopper full probably works out best for people who don't make too many grinder adjustments. However, when I am dialing in a new blend I make alot of adjustments.

I taste, adjust, taste again, repeat....and repeat again. I play with dose levels and pour characteristics and temperatures. I am not looking for "acceptable" shots I am looking for the sweet spots as I try to understand how the coffee behaves under different extraction conditions so I can adjust different variables to my tastes. My shots all LOOK good, and if that was my only criteria then I wouldn't even bother to post here.


I'm still very interested in this topic, but I will wait until I am in more familiar territory to try it out for myself again. I have a nice batch of "garden variety" home roast just waiting for me to finish with the WBC blend.

I'm actually looking forward to it

[bcquinn1]

you do raise a good point about familiarity with the coffee, and the frequency with which you change beans. i stick with one coffee per week, and with some exceptions i stick with 3-4 coffees i know pretty well, and enjoy consistently. so it's easier for me when i'm switching blends... e.g., with hairbender i know to start at "4" on my cimbali jr. and go from there. if i've never used the coffee, and am playing with dose, then it's a bit uglier in terms of waste (but again, probably never more than a few dollars worth).

but do give it a shot and report back. maybe i'm delusional, but i really did see a big difference in quality once i started keeping the hopper full.

[CoffeeOwl]

The key may simply be keeping the same amount of coffee above the burrs all the time which is what I tend to do. If you normally keep two shots of beans in the hopper, than always keep two shots worth of beans in the hopper and the grind should stay relatively stable. If you dose per shot than always dose per shot and the grind will stay relatively stable, if you keep a tamper on top of the beans then always keep a tamper on top of the bean column, if you (you get the idea, consistency).... Some burr sets may also be more susceptible to the change than others.

My tired eyes smiled and shined with love as I read it... thanks!

To put it differently, without a column of beans above the burrs, how can you not have "popcorning" as the grinder empties? How else can you explain the difference in grind a full hopper produces (e.g., almost always producing a finer, as in less coarse, grind)?

I agree there's no way to escape from popcorning, yet does it really spoil the grind? (I mean: does it cause the particles to be of a variety of sizes and shapes?)
The grind is finer with a full hopper because the column of beans presses the beans actually being ground against the burrs.


I used to keep beans in the hopper for a short time, but gave it up as soon as I tried dosing beans per shot for the first time. Maybe it's an issue of my ignorance but I haven't noticed any change in shot quality, only the grind became coarser.

[Ken Fox]

I agree there's no way to escape from popcorning, yet does it really spoil the grind? (I mean: does it cause the particles to be of a variety of sizes and shapes?)
The grind is finer with a full hopper because the column of beans presses the beans actually being ground against the burrs.

Unlike fine temperature differences, this is something that could be tested fairly easily, both by examining the grinds (a scanning electron microscope would sure help ), and on a taste basis with paired simultaneous shots using two identical or nearly identical espresso machines and 2 identical grinders. My guess is that if there are real taste differences to be found, that they are subtle and would require very many paired shots to find.

Most probably you could make the same sort of conclusion we reached on the freezing study, i.e., if there is a difference it is not huge and it couldn't be detected with the number of shot pairs you could reasonably perform in such a test before your testers would lose all interest.

This sort of conclusion makes freezing a viable approach for medium term coffee preservation, and would enable those who like to run their grinders empty to continue to do so without "shame," in the absence of an obvious huge reduction in the quality of espresso shots so produced.

ken

[RapidCoffee]

I know the conicals are sensitive to the amount of beans, or more specifically the amount of weight above the burrs on the coffee column.
...
The key may simply be keeping the same amount of coffee above the burrs all the time which is what I tend to do. If you normally keep two shots of beans in the hopper, than always keep two shots worth of beans in the hopper and the grind should stay relatively stable. If you dose per shot than always dose per shot and the grind will stay relatively stable, if you keep a tamper on top of the beans then always keep a tamper on top of the bean column, if you (you get the idea, consistency).... Some burr sets may also be more susceptible to the change than others.

Based on some tests I ran during the TGP last summer, I became convinced that popcorning is indeed a factor in grinding. And not just with conicals grinders. Pours ran significantly faster (6-8 seconds) with just one dose of beans in my flat burr Mazzer SJ (link here).

I can get good pours with single dose grinding, but my consistency improves with two or more doses of beans in my minihopper. More beans seems unnecessary in my setup, but I haven't tested it with large hoppers (and don't intend to ).