La Pavoni Pro with extremely low crema production - why?

[buzzmc]

Hello All - Intro'd myself in the rollcall area, and went searching for help. Found lots of helpful advice, and I'm still stuck, with extremely low crema production from my new Pavoni.

For reference:

Grinder: Estro. (I've seen Seaco's (?) that look just like this) It's a burr grinder, and I can grind beans pretty fine, definitely finer than normal sugar, which seems to be a hint that you're getting close.

Water: Aquafine bottled water. Love the stuff.

The last several shots have been with the portafilter/basket warmed up too!, and what I'll describe below is just the last few attempts.

Beans: From a Coffeehouse/roaster that's local. It is a blend that's fairly dark. They are fresh, and I don't grind more than I'll need for a couple days... The last few days I've not been grinding more than I need to use it up in a session of trial and error. This has been the fastest pound of coffee I've ever gone through.

And last, I'm talking with Les at Thortampers.com to get a new tamper. I personally believe from what I've read now that it's criminal that Pavoni sells this magnificent (albeit extremely frustrating right now) machine with such a POS tamper.

So, I've ground at 5, 3, 1.5, and now 0. Anything more (coarser) that 0/zero, and I can't tamp hard enough to get any pressure from the lever, and water flows through the grouphead w/o delay.

Grind at 0, fill the portafilter, and tamp hard.. I'm sure more than the 30lbs that seems to be the standard, and it takes maybe 4 seconds before water starts flowing (slowly) from the spouts. What comes out is very dark, and stays that way until I start to pull the lever and get about 1/2 way down, at which point what's coming out finally turns a lighter color.

The shots always end with bubbly "crema" coming from the spouts.

If you pull the shot into a couple shot glasses there's really no crema, except on the very very top, extremely thin.

Ok, that's it. As you can guess I'm frustrated. The Shots usually taste decent.

I've tried to tamp hard enough to lock up my Pavoni, and cannot do so, even if I lean on the tamp with most of my body weight. So I'm not sure if that's an indication that even though *I* think my coffee is ground fine enough, that maybe in fact it needs to be even finer. I don't want to go plunk down $250-700 on a grinder if I don't *have* to, but if that's the ticket, you can bet I'll order one.

Any helpful thoughts will be most appreciated. Thank you!

-bryan

[HB]

Grinder: Estro. (I've seen Seaco's (?) that look just like this) It's a burr grinder, and I can grind beans pretty fine, definitely finer than normal sugar, which seems to be a hint that you're getting close.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with that grinder. Do the burrs look like this?


From The Home Barista's Guide to Espresso

If so, that could be the beginning of the problem, as Jim explains in his article:

Finally there are contraptions falsely called burr grinders that cost around $50. These are not actually burr grinders, but use knobs to crush the beans. Since this produces a large quantity of fines, they will produce an acrid shot with even the most mild mannered all-Brasil blends. They are to be strictly avoided for any coffee use.

Beans: From a Coffeehouse/roaster that's local. It is a blend that's fairly dark. They are fresh, and I don't grind more than I'll need for a couple days... The last few days I've not been grinding more than I need to use it up in a session of trial and error.

If you are pregrinding the coffee, that will lead to dark, bitter, fast-flowing extractions, even if you STAND on the tamper. Really, really horrible stuff. The coffee needs to be ground moments before use, not days.

I don't want to go plunk down $250-700 on a grinder if I don't *have* to, but if that's the ticket, you can bet I'll order one.

I'll bet that's the ticket. Read about the key features of a top-end grinder. The article doesn't mention the Rocky Rancilio, but it's also well capable of serving your needs and is less expensive (e.g., Rocky doserless is currently $285, but it may pay to call around for a better deal).

[j7on]

It makes ALL the difference to have a decent grinder(i noticed this myself just recently..)
I had a "good" burr grinder that turned beans into powder if i wanted to, you mentioned you are getting "sugar", not fine enough for the Pavoni.

I tried to compensate the bad grinder with(hard) tamping, all i got was occasional "ok" coffee with the variety of burnt/"cremaless", watery..yuk!

I got myself the Minimoka(m-205) by Demoka(was like €250 where i live, but it was worth it!) and everything changed, now i do not tamp as hard as i used to(=i don't stand on the tamper anymore ), get a bottomless portafilter, you will learn to "read" it the tamp was good.

Yes, i still use the "crappy" plastic tamper that Pavoni supplies, i can do a decent job with it and i do not want to turn this immediately into a "gadget-sport", it's about the "Barista" "too"..
Get a good tamper when you get decent results with the crappy one(by then you know what you need or want).

Now my crema is rich, thick, creamy and lasts longer than the last drop of coffee, and now i consider my old "good" grinder to be a complete crap.

I have compared my machine to a Isomac Tea(actually i was thinking of getting myself one cuz this "Pavoni thing" was not kicking off) that a friend of mine has and i (and he..) would say that the Pavoni crema is richer, thicker & "tastier" than from the Tea(and now i will not give up the Pavoni, ever!).

Be patient, i spent like 3 months & many kilograms of (sadly, too good) beans til i got to the point i now only then & now get the occasional bad cup, i would not recommend the Pavoni for anyone without any experience in home-espresso cuz it might ruin the entire experience if you are not willing to commit yourself to "mastering"(i doubt anyone ever REALLY will..) it.

[HB]

PS: See La Pavoni Pro in the hands of pros. Searching on "pavoni and technique" found several good threads too.

[cannonfodder]

It will pull a good shot...

[buzzmc]

I'm going to go take apart my grinder right now and see if that's what the "burrs" look like.... I've cleaned it once before, but I can't recall if that's what they look like or not.

I fully expect at this point I'll need to buy a grinder.

As of right now, aside from cleaning, since I live about 45 minutes or so from Sweet Maria's, I'm going to go up there and get a 1/2 pound or so of whatever they recommend, and have them grind it, for use with my Pavoni, to eliminate that variable. They seem to have a pretty strong following, so I think that should help quite a bit, and prove once and for all if my grinder is indeed a POS for Espresso.

[HB]

As of right now, aside from cleaning, since I live about 45 minutes or so from Sweet Maria's, I'm going to go up there and get a 1/2 pound or so of whatever they recommend, and have them grind it, for use with my Pavoni, to eliminate that variable.

If you have them grind coffee for you, it will still be stale on your return, and it's equally likely their guess at the proper grind setting will be off. The Pavoni isn't big, why not take it with you? Of course this assumes that Tom is willing to endulge your onsite test. Never hurts to ask; we've met briefly and he seemed like a very friendly and helpful guy.

[buzzmc]

(note, I was told Tom was out of town before I went up, and didn't see him) ... Anyway...

I went up there, talked to a couple very nice ladies, and came back with a pound of Sweet Maria's Monkey Espresso Blend and a new, doserless Rancilio Rocky.

Of course I couldn't to straight home, which was killing me, since I needed to check this thing out. Of course I tried to give myself a hernia lifting the 22 pound beast (I wasn't expecting that).

So after I get home, I set up shop. Turn the Pavoni on, set the Rocky to 10, grind away into the portafilter basket, made a mess, tamped carefully with the POS from Pavoni while I await my new, properly sized tamper from Thors, walked over to the Pavoni, inserted the handle, and tried to pull a shot.

Locked up! Can't do that with my current grinder... No way, no how. I can tamp as hard as I can, on the finest setting, and no way could I lock up the Pavoni.

So I'm already pretty excited.

Backed off 3 ticks on the Rocky, tried again. This time it takes a long time for anything to drip out of the spout, but it does finally (probably 10+ seconds... a long time), and the pull is still very, very firm. So I think maybe 1-2 more ticks off on the Rocky and I might be there.

But even with the 2nd, what I feel is a very hard pull, I produced more crema than probably the last dozen shots combined.

So, at least now I'm on to fine tuning and learning, etc. No doubt that the grinder was *it*.

Now I need a brush for the grinder, so I can get the grounds that are stuck in there on other settings out, without getting out a screw driver and disassembling the spout first. I doubt I'll change coffee's a lot (I mean, a pound lasts a bit after you're done fiddling with things), so maybe this cleaning thing won't be so often after a bit.. Dunno.

Thanks all for the help. I'm sure I'll have more questions.. The biggest one will be about how hard to pull, though from reading I understand that this is not an insignificant effort... So maybe what I feel is a "fairly hard pull" is actually just about right.

[HB]

Nice to hear the happy ending!

Before we close the book on this one, one request and a couple pointers. I'm curious if the burrs on your former grinder were indeed pseudo-burrs. Would you post a picture (instructions)? You may also be interested in the Rocky uber mods and flush mod.

[buzzmc]

Well, the picture you posted earlier looks quite a lot like the burrs in the Estro, though with the description given, I don't see the "knobs", so I'm not sure if they are exactly the same or not.

What I know for sure is that the Rocky does a better job, since I'm already getting better results.

I just finished cleaning the Estro for storage... Wish I'd read this before and I'd have taken a picture.... We'll see if I can't do that tomorrow anyway... It doesn't take too long to get it apart

[buzzmc]

Ok, so I have a couple more questions / observations.

First, I believe I've pulled one outstanding shot. Not bitter at all, slightly creamy, and I'll tell you I was definitely a "non believer" when the coffee I buy says hints of chocolate and licorice, but I could taste the chocolate in the aftertaste.

If I can get to doing that more often than not, I'll be a very happy camper! The creme stayed on that shot for quite some time too.

So that brings me to the following:

1) The last couple shots have had very thin crema. Is there generally one or two things that are usually the culprit?
2) I'm probably tamping too hard or my grind is too fine, but it still takes quite some time for anything to drip out of the spouts. 10+ seconds. Or, maybe that's just about right?
3) How do you pull a double with the Pavoni? I read the instructions, but it seems I'll never get near 2.5 oz, even if I were to bottom out on the first pull. Maybe I have too much coffee in the portafilter?

That's it for now. I think I'm going to go read more tomorrow and try and find a book or two that I can go buy about my new hobby/passion. That one shot was so yummy, and I've *never* tasted anything like that from Starbucks, Pete's, or any "one-off" coffee shops.

[Alchemist]

Well, that was pleasantly quick troubleshooting to your crema problem. Congrats.

The other main culprit to a lack of crema in levers that I have seen is an insufficient pressure in the extraction (usually by those that just don't have the physical capability) or occasionally burning it away too fast. Actually, the other reason is a variation of your original problem - old beans or beans past their prime. Keep that in mind if you have good luck with a particular roast batch, but it starts going south.


IMO, you should not have to wait 10 seconds to get flow - that is too long. I find I actually get the start of a couple drops with a 10 seconds pre-infusion, and then about 10-15 seconds of flow on my first down stroke, and another 10 seconds or so on the seconds stroke until blonding starts - the classic 23-28 seconds for a double.

As for your tamping, go read up of Malachi's suggestions about tamping. After speaking with him a year ago, my espresso took a quantum leap up. He began me down the path of truly "understanding" what I was doing and WHY I was doing it. From him, tamp is all about preserving distribution - end of story. The real trick it turns out is getting a consistent distribution.

As for that, I wanted to see if anyone else here uses a Zass grinder, and if so, how do you deal with consistent distribution? I am not going to say it is the end all of grinders, but I do note that I get NO clumping that I see with various high end grinders. My grind looks a lot like the pictures of the M3 grind - sort of a volcano type, clumpless mound. Right now I spoon from my drawer into my PF and it works pretty good, but is not perfect. I could hack my DG 169 to accept the PF direct, but I am loathe to do that.

[buzzmc]

Ok, so to start, I just don't want to break my Pavoni. That being said, read on!

When I first got the Rocky I set it at 10, and I Believe I locked up my machine. Then I went to 13, and I felt it required quite firm (too firm) pressure on the lever. I tried another shot tho at 13, and just went with it, and it produced a fair amount of Crema, and was the best tasting shot I've ever had.

Since I felt the pressure was still too firm I went up to 15, and the pressure seems to be going down, but so has Crema production.

I see why many quote "magic" is part of the formula.

So today I went back to 13 on the Rocky, and just "pulled through" what I felt was like too much pressure, and again, I got a pretty dang tasty double.

As a side note for anyone reading this, I still have yet to measure dosage w/the Rocky. I bought a doserless model, and I just put the portafilter down there, and fill until it's a bit over level, level out the basket, which pretty much fills the filter basket, and then tamp very carefully with the POS Pavoni tamper. I'm making a large assumption that this at least gets me in the ballpark of acceptable. Would someone care to comment on this technique?

I suppose it'd really be nice to have two pressure gauges on this thing... One for the boiler, so we knew when it was ready, and one inside the portafilter, so we knew just how hard we needed to pull. I'm thinking this is my biggest variable right now. I'm wondering if I grind at 10, tamp, and just "yank" on the handle, if I'll get even more Crema, and if that might actually be "just right", instead of me "babying" my Pavoni.

Thanks!

-bryan

[mr. brown]

A number of threads here have dealt with the question of finding the "right" amount of pressure and how to measure it. Probably the most intuitive and easily reproducible example I've seen is depicted in the "Elektra/Pavoni side by side" thread where Steve Robinson put a bathroom scale under his machine and measured pressure on a good pull. I think that the 40 pounds he measures would correspond to the desired 9 bar. Check it out.

http://www.home-barista.com/forum...-by-side-t139.html

I'm not suggesting that you actually do this, but it was helpful for me to learn what 30 pounds worth of pushing felt like when I wanted to troubleshoot my tamping method. 40 pounds probably isn't that much, and it definitely isn't enough to snap the lever off your machine.

[buzzmc]

Thanks... I hadn't found that thread searching, or I skipped for whatever reason. I'll read up on that when I wake up later this morning

I wasn't as worried about the 40 pounds of pull breaking the machine as I am about the possibility that I'm pulling a lot harder than that.

Interestingly enough, when I tried the bathroom scale for tamping, I felt 30 pounds was quite easy. Then I decided to tamp on the scale at counter hieght, and well, that's a different story completely.

[buzzmc]

Here we go:



Now, I'm thinking that looks pretty dang good. It smells good too, and even tastes pretty good in my latte, though I only poured it in there 'cause I'd already frothed the milk... I think I should have drank this one straight up, DOH!

So that's a double pull, and the only thing that I'm not getting is the volume.. I think that's around 1.5 ounces, not near 2, and the only way I think I can get 2 ounces is with 2 1/2 pulls. Any ideas there?

Thanks everyone for the help, and continued help! This is making my new Pavoni so much more enjoyable.. Sites like this are really, really valuable to many, including myself.

[HB]

So that's a double pull, and the only thing that I'm not getting is the volume.. I think that's around 1.5 ounces, not near 2, and the only way I think I can get 2 ounces is with 2 1/2 pulls. Any ideas there?

I prefer ristrettos from my lever machine anywhere from 1.0-1.5 ounces. It's difficult to say with the lighting of your photograph, but it appears a little too tan and monochromatic. I like to see good brown-reddish coloring and mottling. The extraction below was no crema monster, however the flavor was very good:

From More signs of ECD (espresso-compulsive disorder)

Photographing my godshots has proven difficult, as you can see below:

From Effects of high humidity on lever machine's extraction

You have more flexibility to "finesse" the pull because yours is a manual (not spring) lever, but generally speaking, I prefer a slower extraction on the Microcasa than for a pump-driven espresso machine. You might try allowing ample time for preinfusion and reducing the volume to around 1.25 ounces. For more specifics, I defer to the Pavonites of the LMWDP...

[buzzmc]

The photo didn't lie, it's definitely very uniform, and the crema very tan in color. When first pulled it compromised about 15-20% of the shot, and that crema actually stayed around long enough to go get the camera, and take a few photo's, that being the best of the three. I'll try and zoom in from farther away next time and reduce the lightening of the flash, though that is basically the color I received.

I'm going to go somewhere tomorrow to get a couple of shot glasses with measuring ticks on them so I know how much I'm getting instead of guestimating.

So here's the rest of the details of that shot:

Lifted the handle up, and did my in-head count to 10, at which point I pulled. No fluid came out while the handle was at the top allowing water into the basket. Pulled the handle back up, and fluid just dripped/trickled out while I held it there for a few seconds, and then I made the 2nd pull, which also needed a pretty solid pull, though not quite as much effort as the first pull.

Right now I get the feeling from what I've read that after 10 seconds there should be something in the bottom of your cup... But on every cup I've pulled when I've had anything in the cup in that 10 second window, it's been more than a few drops, and the effort to pull the shot has been very easy, and I get no crema.

If I get no liquid in the cup after 10 seconds, and have a firm pull, I definitely get less fluid overall, but I also get more crema, and I also get much better tasting shots, and almost never get any "bubbling" at the end of the pulls.

I do know now why "magic" comes into the equation. Trial and error and experience = Better control of the magic

[buzzmc]

So I got some shot glasses tonight to get a better idea of shot volume... With my normal dosing/tamping, I might get 1/2 ounce per pull total, so like 1/4 ounce per shot glass. 4 pulls for a double... something's not right.

My only guess is that I have too much coffee in the basket w/too tight a tamp to allow any amount of pre-infusion to have enough water in the basket to have acceptable shot volumes.

I backed off on the dose just slightly, as well as the tamp, and I get much better results, shot volume wise. Here's a pick after a 2-pull double with the just slightly different tamp/dose combo:



This produced a bit under 2 ounces, but close enough that I'm not going to whine about it.

[MikeR]

Even though I'm new, I will boldly proclaim that the point of espresso is the TASTE!
I certainly have a lot of developing to do in terms of my palate. But I am not going to worry too much about crema, volume, pre-infusion etc.
I've had many of the same experiences you've had with your lever machine.
I try to remember what my mistakes and screwups look/taste like. I even used up some old coffee pulling (and tasting) a shot before things were properly heated up--too cold-- and after leaving it on 30 minutes--too hot. How else would I know what those things taste like?
I'm trying to get over my inherent cheapness (not wanting to waste coffee) with the thought that it's foolish to spend a grand + on a espresso machine and new grinder but no money on extra coffee usage.