La Pavoni Pro lever resistance problem

[trix]

I have a La Pavoni Pro which I got on ebay a few months ago. I've enjoyed the learning curve with it but I think it needs new gaskets since I am getting no resistance pressure not matter what technique I try. I am using a Pe De Dienes grinder with it. I don't yet have a very good tamper...only a cheapy.

[mogogear]

Hey Welcome Trix...
When you say "no pressure"... you mean - No resistance to your pull or "no pressure" as you can't get boiler pressure to build up?

[trix]

I meant no resistance in the pull...no matter what I try...when we first got it I had a couple of pulls that were were way too hard to pull (we thought)...I think we may have tried to force it....thus blowing a gasket...seal?
I bought gaskets for it but they haven't been put in yet.

The lever stays up on it's own when not in use as I believe it should. Everything else seems normal. The machine seemed fine when we got it. It is a pre-millennium model (mid-90's) and I doubt it has ever had seals replaced or had regular maintenance. It didn't look like it had heavy use. I descaled it when we got it.

My husband home roasts the coffee.

There is plenty of steam and I am able to froth milk...

[trix]

Also, espresso starts to drip out before the pull and doesn't stop...before the lever is all the way up.

[mayhew]

I'm guessing tamp or grind, actually. If you're getting drip before you pull the puck isn't offering any resistance to the water pressure.

I suppose it is possible, but in practice you can't blow a seal by pressing down too hard on the lever. I suspect the first thing to give would be the screen gasket. If you're getting good pressure (and no hissing) it sounds like it's well sealed.

Typically the first gaskets to go are the boiler to base (the machine starts to rotate) and the group seals (the lever is very stiff both up and down but gets better s the machine heats up).

Grind and tamp and keep fine-ing up the grind, watching your shots.

It would be worth replacing the seals though. It's relatively easy to do (there are great directions on this site for your model).

[A2chromepeacock]

I'm guessing tamp or grind, actually. If you're getting drip before you pull the puck isn't offering any resistance to the water pressure.

yep, i totally agree.

the solution: a real tamper, ASAP. and a grinder capable of grinding fine and even, even ASAP-er. in the meantime, see if your hand grinder can be adjusted to grind fine enough such that the grinds choke the machine (so much pressure to the pull that you can't pull the lever down, nor get any espresso out). if so, then slowly back off on the grind until you hit black gold.

I'm not too familiar with the hand grinders (though many members here are *very* familiar), but I recollect that some hand grinder owners have questioned their ability to grind fine enough for espresso. This is not a general statement by any means--I think peacecup uses a hand grinder exclusively--but I think others have wondered about the adjustment range on a grinder-to-grinder basis, even of the same brand and model.

[trix]

I had two Dienes manual grinders. I just sold one of them...(some regrets about that because it was the smaller of the two and easier for me to handle...) but, I had set both to the finest they would go....by all appearances the grind seemed very evenly fine. I've tried course to fine, hard tamp, to light with no difference.

I hope to be ordering a new tamper soon. What about all the talk about fine grind/light tamp I've been reading lately? I suppose we'll need to save for a electric grinder to rule that out.

What about the piston...could we have damaged that? I do want to rule out the machine.

Neither my husband nor I have any other espresso machine experience except an inexpensive Delonghi pump machine which seems to do a fine job and gives us decent crema. We've gotten crema once or twice with the LP early on, when there was still resistance.

I've been trying the LP more than my husband (he had been traveling a lot)...maybe he will have more luck. I've read everything I can find...he hasn't. He is going to try to pull one right now.

[mayhew]

You didn't damage the piston. I believe they're metal on that version. I have the newer model with the plastic piston and have done every bit and worse to mine.

WRT to light tamp, I don't think I buy it. I watched almost every shop owner in Pittsburgh use my machine and i told them *not* to tamp lightly. They did just fine with the machine. (One guy did over tamp, everyone else was fine).

One quick test is to get your hands on some store bought Illy pre-ground. It's close enough to a good grind to get you in the ball park.

[trix]

So, we brought the LP pro to MMSI to replace the gaskets/seals. Since I neglected to leave the portafilter with them the first time they weren't actually able to properly test the machine.

We still have the same problem. We still don't have a great tamper (I should be ordering a new one soon) and we are still using a PE DE Dienes manual coffee mill set to the finest setting. We have been using fresh roasted coffee. We get little to no crema.

When I heated it up the first time the lever remained up and if I hadn't caught it in time all the water would have flowed out of the portafilter spouts before putting in the coffee. That never happened before.

My husband thinks we should bring it back to them.










-Lucy

[trix]

I just made some espresso and after I took the coffee out I wanted to put some water through it to clean it. There was more lever resistance without coffee in the portafilter than with coffee. Why would that happen? I am baffled. What actually causes lever resistance if I can have more without coffee?

This last time I used coffee ground finer than Illy.and a firm tamp.

[timo888]

With a domestic lever, a "real tamper" is unnecessary as long as you have "real grinder" -- one capable of making micro-adjustments to the granularity. As others who use them will concur, vintage manual grinders can produce an excellent espresso grind and can hold their handles high when standing next to a $500 grinder; but some are simply worn out with age and use, while others are not micro-adjustable; these would be unsuitable for espresso but may do very well for french press. No need to toss them.

Tamping is not a necessity, and until you get your grinder dialed in, tamping will only complicate matters by adding an additional variable and side-effects to the extraction. Grind, dose, and distribution are where you should focus your attentions primarily.

This no-tamping advice may appear to depart from prevailing wisdom; but they don't do much tamping in Italy, and the espresso they make there is said to be almost as good as what is made here in the States
Once you've established your baseline, you can decide for yourself whether you like espresso that has been tamped or not.

To establish a baseline with your grinder, try to grind finely enough to "choke" your machine (so that nothing flows at all even as you press down the lever) using only a moderate dose (~14g in the double basket) and no tamp whatsoever. If you can do this, then coarsen up the grind from that point in micro-adjustments until you get a nice flow that is not too rapid. If you cannot choke the machine in this manner, time to scout out another hand grinder on eBay -- one that is stepless and whose burrs are not dulled with years of use.

Regards
Timo

[trix]

I'll try to not tamp next time, but when I've tried a light tamp before I had no change in the resistance.

The burrs on my Pe De Dienes do not appear worn. I have ground the coffee finer than Illy and have started backing it off some...so that it is a little easier to turn the crank. So far no difference. Still trying to rule out the machine.

I'll try the Illy again to see if there is any difference in resistance....I don't think I've used any since getting the machine back.

[mayhew]

I just made some espresso and after I took the coffee out I wanted to put some water through it to clean it. There was more lever resistance without coffee in the portafilter than with coffee. Why would that happen? I am baffled. What actually causes lever resistance if I can have more without coffee?

If you mean you raised the lever and it was hard to do so, the piston seals need to be replaced. As they wear the lever offers more and more resistance.

[trix]

Sorry, to not make myself clear.

No, not when I was pulling the handle up without coffee but when I pulled it down to flush there was more resistance than when I pull my shots. I did try it again a few minutes later and there was no resistance as usual. But I just thought it odd that there would be any pressure pulling when the portafilter & basket was empty.

The main problem with my pulls is no resistance in the lever...thus no crema. It also leaked water when heating up with the lever in the up position...but it really shouldn't have been as high as to be in the fill position; but I guess it must have been?

[timo888]

I'll try to not tamp next time, but when I've tried a light tamp before I had not change in the resistance.

The burrs on my Pe De Dienes do not appear worn. I have ground the coffee finer than Illy and have started backing it off some...so that it is a little easier to turn the crank. So far no difference. Still trying to rule out the machine.

I'll try the Illy again to see if there is any difference in resistance....I don't think I've used any since getting the machine back.

You don't say whether you've managed to grind it fine enough to "choke" the machine.

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

I'll try to not tamp next time, but when I've tried a light tamp before I had not change in the resistance.

The goal is to see if your grinders are up to snuff, marginal, or not good enough. When you tamp, you make that analysis more complicated. We want to see what the grinders are capable of, by themselves.

If you have the grinders at their finest settings, and are dosing moderately, i.e. ~14 g in the double basket (no underdosing), and the water flows (not drips) through the coffee into the cup even before you've pressed down the lever, one or both of the following is true:

-- the grind is too coarse [i.e. grinders are not suitable for espresso]
-- the boiler pressure is much too high

I suspect it's the grinders.

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

Sorry, to not make myself clear.

No, not when I was pulling the handle up without coffee but when I pulled it down to flush there was more resistance than when I pull my shots. I did try it again a few minutes later and there was no resistance as usual. But I just thought it odd that there would be any pressure pulling when the portafilter & basket was empty.

The main problem with my pulls is no resistance in the lever...thus no crema. It also leaked water when heating up with the lever in the up position...but it really shouldn't have been as high as to be in the fill position; but I guess it must have been?

The lever should be in the down position when the machine is at rest and heating up Blame those d*mn retail photos where they make manual levers appear to be spring levers.

When the lever is up, water exits the boiler under pressure and enters the piston chamber and exits through the filter basket, except that the coffee is there to present resistance.

Regards
Timo

[mayhew]

It would be worth your time to read this:
http://pavoniexpress.com/espresso.html

so you know how to use your machine.

That will eliminate a lot of variables and perhaps sources of problems for you. Plus, I agree with his recommendation to use the single basket and not tamp. I find I have to grind more coarsely for the single basket which would help determine if your grinder(s) are the problem. I suspect they are.

[trix]

I have read lots at pavoniexpress...but will go again to see if there is something I've missed. I've read everything I can about the LP...here, the cg forum, Daniel Ho/guru, Chris Martin etc.

We've only choked the machine once shortly after getting it...and not since. Without getting any resistance how would I be able to choke the machine?

...purpose of thread=lack of resistance in the lever pull....always.

I've had two Pe De grinders...have since sold one...what is the least expensive electric burr grinder that will work well for espresso?....really not ready to spend 4 or $500 on a grinder.

Thanks for the trouble shooting help.

Lucy

[trix]

As far as the lever being in the up position while at rest: mine always seems to be in the up position at rest. I am pretty sure that the lever goes to the up position on it's own as it cools after use...at least I don't remember putting the lever back up. I'd have to go back and put it down later then it probably won't go back up.

I have been using the single basket though I have also experimented with the double basket. Though I don't always weigh...I have weighed the doses.

The spent puck looks fine...no channeling...solid when I knock it out. Whereas on our inexpensive Delonghi pump machine the puck is always soupy...
Also, I am able to remove the portafilter rather soon after the pull without any sense that it will spit...not much pressure left at all.

Could it be that I am not letting the pressure build enough? The pressurestat reads between .9 and just at the 1.1 or right at the last of the green and just before the red starts.