La Pavoni Pro and pull volumes

[buzzmc]

Ok, I'm only posting this new topic as I think this may be lost in my 'low crema' topic.

I've measured out 2 ounces of fluid, emptied that into the glass I'm using right now for pulling shots, and I tell you I can't really figure out how to get a good double with just two pulls on the Pavoni.

The grind and tamp I'm using now doesn't seem to allow for any fluid flow for I don't know how long, the longest I've waited is 15 seconds before making my first pull.

I'll take a guess that a double pull like this produces 1.5 ounces. No more.

I've pretty much thrown out the manual that comes with the Pavoni. So little info there it's silly. But in reading things here I've come to believe that somewhere in the 6-10 second range you should be getting something, even if it's just a few drips, no?

Should I be getting an ounce per pull? Certainly I know I'll get no crema if I don't tamp hard enugh to have pressure when pulling the handle. And if I do that, I also get fluid flowing within the first 3 seconds of pulling the handle up, if not pretty much instantly.

These two-pull "short" shots are very strong, and usually bitter, though I did pull one that was much sweeter and buttery in feel.. That was very nice

[flttrainer]

These two-pull "short" shots are very strong, and usually bitter

I have experienced this also. It takes a couple pulls to get a double and for the most part they are bitter.

[AndersNygaard]

If you are using fresh coffee, you most likely will not see anything from the Pavoni before lowering the lever. I only experience this with older or preground coffee.

I normally only use the single filter, and have perfected my technique to this, but sometimes I use the double. The best way to enhance volume with the double filter is to lower the lever 2/3, then quickly raising it for a very short period, and lowering it again.

A first this leads to bitter doubles, but as you find the right place to raise, the right amount of time to wait, and get the feel of the whole process, it produces very fine doubles.

The Pavoni is all about try, try, try and try again. You will fail better each time.

Best regards

/Anders

[Paul L]

This is very much a personal view, I don't profess it's authoritative.

I don't attempt to pull doubles if I understand correctly here, a double being the addition of a second pull using the same puck. My own relatively short experience is that to optimise the grind, tamp and taste for a pull means that it just gets destroyed to use it again. No different from using a teabag twice or emptying a pot and starting again with the same loose leaf tea. Urghh, I am English after all!

In fact, I pulled a double by default the other day when talking and distracted. I forgot to change the basket, I pulled, it was flat, it looked weak, I added the milk and it would quite easily have made a good medical specimen . Needless to say, I immediately poured it down the sink. So, my own take on things is that a Pavoni is a low shot-volume set-up, no big deal, just factor it into the routine. If one can't adapt around it then maybe the answer lies in a different machine. Either pull two separate baskets for your shot/capp or make two drinks to give you the volume of 'hit' you're looking for. It's the latter that I follow and which described in an earlier thread precisely because a solitary double out of the Pav is not enough for me either.

When I first got the Pav it felt strange to use a basket that dropped in and out of the portafilter without being held in place and it did not seem popular out there, however I liked it from very early on. So simple to turn upside down and knock out without losing the basket, it doesn't take much effort to get the technique. Now whilst one could redose, distribute and tamp easily enough, I took the advice of the seasoned Pav user I visited and bought a second basket from the beginning, therefore when I start my two-pull routine I've got both barrels ready to fire. It's obviously fast and easy to drop a second ready-prepared basket straight in, lock and go and without touching any hot surface or losing the 'important for some' time in keeping going given the Pav's continuously-heating nature.

I have tried adding both together for a larger shot and I have tried frothing the milk volume together rather than one at a time which does have benefit until you really get good on a Pav. However, and forgive me for this, the size is just too American for me. If I were on the move and prepared it into a flask or take-out cup for the car then no problem but in the home 9oz is as big as I want to drink. Purely personal preference. I kind of like finishing one, looking at the bottom of the cup and savouring and then feeling good as I pick up the second cup that I can do it all over again.

[Paul L]

You will fail better each time

Anders, that's a fabulous phrase to describe the Pav journey.

[AndersNygaard]

Anders, that's a fabulous phrase to describe the Pav journey.

Thanks. It comes from an old Samuel Beckett quote, but works great in this context

Best regards

/Anders

[MikeR]

(I too am a newbe) and have had the same experience with 1 1/2 oz. doubles--with almost two full pulls.
I guess it's safe to say that La Pavoni doesn't believe in "Supersizing." An expermental 3rd pull on one particularly short double was foul to say the least.
I usally get a few drops at about 5-6 seconds of pre-infusion.
By the way, say I'm pulling a standard double and I pull down about 3/4 way, and then back up.
Is there any hesitation necessary (or avoided) when going up for the "reloading" of water in the grouphead to do a second pull?
In my limited experience, a pretty quick reload (no hesitation at the top) does affect the quantity of water that goes into the grouphead.

Secondly, is considerably less resistance on the second pull normal--or always indicivative of poor distribution/tamping?

[buzzmc]

Mike -

My limited experience suggests when you go up for the 2nd pull, you need to allow time for the pf to fill with water again. I'm not sure how long this is, if you need to allow for another full 10 seconds - This I would doubt, but allowing 5-6 seconds seems reasonable to me, and that's what I'm doing right now.

It's easy to test, you've probably already done this, just pull up for the 2nd pull, and don't wait to pull the handle down... You'll get very little extra fluid for your 2nd pull. So there's definitely something there (in my opinion), or I'm doing something wrong, or there's something wrong with my Pavoni

[AndersNygaard]

The actual place to stop the first pull, in my experience, depends on the resistance in the pull and the amount of espresso produced during first pull.

I guess you can only replace as much water in the group head, as you get in the cup during first pull. I usually stop the first pull when I have about half a cup. That is about 2/3 of the way down on my Pavoni.

I then raise the lever, and wait until the sound of water rushing into the group head stops. This takes no more than 1 - 2 seconds. If I wait more than this, the espresso becomes bitter.

The second pull has less resistance than the first, and needs to be much more smooth and controlled to avoid bitter espresso.

I do all the above steps in one long smooth movement, without removing my hands from the handles, and adjust things as the machine gives me feedback.

Best regards

/Anders

[MikeR]

The way you described it sounds about right. It's just good to hear someone is having the same experience.
Its' just that I read things that assume a machine driven pump that delivers a 1-2 sec. pre-infusion followed by 25-30 sec. of steady flow.
There is no way that's going to happen with this machine

[peacecup]

Ah, the small pull volumes of the lever machine. The Pavoni has a big group compared to my new Ponte Vecchio (at 45 mm the smallest I've seen). I recently posted a thread on it. I've just gone to the single basket and very delicious 1/2 oz. singles, after a couple of weeks of very mixed results on two-pull doubles. Eventually I'll go back and try some of the double pull techniques mentioned above, but for now I'm enjoying twice as many small espressos!

[Walter]

One of the pitfalls of using Pavoni & Co is the upward pull. Chances are, that one breaks or lifts the puck from the basket and gets channeling. Pulling a second time increases that risk and a very gentle and careful lifting of the handle is necessary to avoid that - if it can be avoided at all.

Although I usually prefer a ristretto over an espresso, I did give it a try. But I changed the cup before the second pull and thus tasted the results of each pull separately. What shall I say, I just didn't have the nerve to spoil my wonderful ristretto in the first cup with the outcome of the second pull which was notably more bitter and astringent..

But I am aware that there might be room for improvement with a second pull, especially since my preparation technique with the Pavoni is aiming at ristrettos from the first, just - I don't see its benefits. I am quite happy with the 1 - 1,5oc from the double basket with the first pull...

[chopinhauer]

I remember having similar discussions about the pull volumes with the pavoni dealer and service people here in sydney. These people are italian, have been importing pavonis for 30 years and know just about everything about these lever machines. And they are adamant that one should NEVER take a second pull of the lever. The pavoni is a one pull machine. The second pull only adds dirty water. They recommended that if you want extra volume you can do either of two things:

First, you can just add some hot water. This they say is better than the dirty water one gets with the second pull, or
Second, and this will only yield a little more, you can prime the pump, by which I mean, you can lift the lever, hold it for 10 seconds, lower it a bit, and then lift it again to get a bit more water in, and then depress the lever.

Finally, I can echo the comments of Walter that one must lift the lever very slowly and gently so as not to disturb the puck and allow an nice even flow of water into the group. If one does this, plus has the right grind, and tamp, then one can a regulation amount for a largish single using the double basket (which isn't a true double anyway).

Robert

[buzzmc]

I remember having similar discussions about the pull volumes with the pavoni dealer and service people here in sydney. These people are italian, have been importing pavonis for 30 years and know just about everything about these lever machines. And they are adamant that one should NEVER take a second pull of the lever. Robert

Well this is indeed very interesting, and flies in the face of what the Pavoni manual says. It won't surprise me however if, in the real world, this is true.

I've been pulling several shots tonight for a few reasons... One, I threw a new bean in the hopper, so I'm trying to get my grind right. Two, I'm trying to figure out how to get a decent volume out of my pulls, so I changed my dosing a bit. Three, four, and five, I can't remember

Seriously though, I'm beginning to believe what you stated is true. With all my attempts where I get little or no flow with a 10 second pre-infusion (lever at the top for 10 seconds before I start the pull), I don't get anywhere near an ounce of fluid. I would say 1/2 ounce is much more normal, and often I'll get somewhat less than that.

I'm determined more than ever to try and figure out what makes the Pavoni tick, and what it's really capable of doing...

[peacecup]

I have been having similar experiences with my Ponte Vecchio, i.e., either very good, low volume single basket/single pulls, or mediocre double basket/double pulls. And, as the PV has a smaller group, my singles are less than 1/2 oz! Now that I've "come down" from the 20+g, 2 oz. doubles I used to pull with my Estro pump machine, I've found that I enjoy higher-frequency, lower-dose espresso drinking (I'd read somewhere that the Italians prefer this, which may be why so many levers have small groups). That said, there must be a use for the double basket, and it can't be for making impossibly strong, single-pull ristrettos (although I have read that these can be good, and plan to experiment). The PV manual also states that you can pull two or three times depending on how much coffee you want.

I suspect that Anders is correct when he says:

The Pavoni is all about try, try, try and try again. You will fail better each time.

and:

I normally only use the single filter, and have perfected my technique to this, but sometimes I use the double. The best way to enhance volume with the double filter is to lower the lever 2/3, then quickly raising it for a very short period, and lowering it again.

A first this leads to bitter doubles, but as you find the right place to raise, the right amount of time to wait, and get the feel of the whole process, it produces very fine doubles.

I'm looking forward to having some time to experiment with producing better doubles with the PV. I also plan to get a second single basket and/or portafilter, so I can pull two shots in rapid succession if I have a visitor or want a larger coffee.

[Gregg K]

My experience is that La Pavoni pulls are inconsistent. I always pull twice, and often three times. And I'm fully aware of the fact that when one pulls, the puck is going to have to allow for air to find it's way past it somehow. This has me wanting a pump system. However, I have been pulling great shots for several years with the lever. I think the inconsistent pull has something to do with the structure of the puck. Perhaps grind, tamp, and oil content of beans.

I find that if the lever pulls down half way without resistance, I can often move it back up and jiggle until I hear the water enter, then pull. And many times I get a full shot where I'd have had next to nothing.

I do not hesitate anywhere in the cycle. I believe that any brief delay gives the coffee a chance to turn into something undesirable.

There is mystery to the lever machine. Sometimes you get a full pull without any air, and sometimes it just refuses to fill, and the lever is fairly limp until half way down.

I love the lever machine because it gives the user great foundations in the basics. I can't imagine a better way to learn about making espresso.

[peacecup]

about a year ago, peacecup wrote:

'm looking forward to having some time to experiment with producing better doubles with the PV. I also plan to get a second single basket and/or portafilter, so I can pull two shots in rapid succession if I have a visitor or want a larger coffee.

Now I just cram the basket fuller if I want more volume, and pull as many times as I want (up the point when blonding begins).

With the correct grind and dose I can get up to two ounces with four pulls, but this takes a bit of practice, and probably only works with certain beans.

Most of the time I just drink smaller volume shots, because its easier to dial in for these.

Lastly, the less dose (more headspace) in the basket, the more water will enter during one pull. This means more volume per pull, but of course since there is less coffee it will blond sooner.

PC

[Jarno]

... is considerably less resistance on the second pull normal--or always indicivative of poor distribution/tamping?

I find that if I try to pull a double, the second pump is much harder and than the first, probably because of swelling of the coffee puck. I find that if the resistence is less, then the puck is cracked and the espresso tastes bitter and overextracted.

Because of difficulty with getting consistency, I don't pull doubles and only enjoy ristrettos from the double basket.

[peacecup]

here is mystery to the lever machine. Sometimes you get a full pull without any air, and sometimes it just refuses to fill, and the lever is fairly limp until half way down.

THe Ponte Vecchio, and possibly some other spring levers, have an air release port on the top of the group. When the lever is pulled down (the reverse of the Pavoni) the water port to the boiler opens, water comes in via boiler pressure, and air escapes out the top. This takes a lot of the mystery out, and makes it easier to take multiple pulls without disturbing the puck.

PC

[Gregg K]

Very interesting.

I should have mentioned, I always make my first lift of the lever with the portafilter loose, to let air in.

The La Pavoni only lets water flow when the lever is nearly at the peak of it's travel.