La Pavoni Pro and pull volumes - Page 2

[Jarno]

I find that if the lever pulls down half way without resistance, I can often move it back up and jiggle until I hear the water enter, then pull. And many times I get a full shot where I'd have had next to nothing.

There is mystery to the lever machine. Sometimes you get a full pull without any air, and sometimes it just refuses to fill, and the lever is fairly limp until half way down.

I love the lever machine because it gives the user great foundations in the basics. I can't imagine a better way to learn about making espresso.

Interesting observation I made with regards to air in the brew chamber. At one time I lifted the lever to the point where the water just sputtered in, taking 5 seconds or so to fill. The idea was to spray the water into the chamber to allow better mixing of water so that the temperature would be more even. However when I did this, There was more residual air in the brew chamber, likely due the wet puck swelling and sealing the channels thus not allowing air to get out. Since then, I reverted back to lifting the lever to 90 - 95% open, lock in the PF, then lift the lever all the way without hesitation to full-bore open, filling the brew chamber immediately. I find there is very little air trapped with this method.

The reason I went back to this is because, as everyone on here has noted, the brew chamber only holds approximately 1.5 oz of water. I took the grouphead apart and also found that the outer chamber -- in the grouphead, but around the outside the brew chamber -- also holds about 1.5 oz of water. So the water that is used to brew the espresso is actually the water left in the grouphead after the previous espresso pull. Additionally, I've noted in my particular machine that the inlet hole is set approximately 150 to 160 degrees from the boiler, rather than 180 degrees opposite. Therefore the water that enters the brew chamber is largely the water in the grouphead, but also a little bit from the boiler itself. I don't know if this is randomly placed (just my machine) or by convention or by design. At any rate it is an interesting tidbit.

Back to the issue you've noted, it might be that the inlet hole is partially covered when the lever is all the way up. This might be because of sagging/worn piston gaskets. Also some of the original millenium models as has been noted used a nylon piston that had a habit of unscrewing. Perhaps you might wish to inspect your piston.

[Gregg K]

I had never made the connection with water on the outside of that piston.

I always lift the lever without the portafilter, to let water flow until it's hot to the touch.

Also, I regularly pull the piston out about every two months. Silicone grease is your friend.

And the hole in that sleeve should line right up with the boiler. I took it for granted. Now I'll have to glance at it next time I pull things apart.

That piston does get loose. I had to cinch mine back on last time.


All reasons why I'm itching for the GS3. I can't wait for the next big leap in espresso fun. But I just went into escrow on a beautiful piece of land, and the espresso machine is now on hold.

[Jarno]

As you had mentioned earlier, the LP is a great machine for learning espresso basics when attending and accounting for all details. I, too, am itching to move into the GS/3. The reason is that it takes me too long (30 minutes) to make 3 cappuccinos. Moreover, with better temperature control, I'd like to appreciate the nuances within coffees. Currently with my crude temperature manipulation on the LP, there is only one flavor profile for a given coffee with variations in body. It sounds like there is much more within it by everyone else's descriptions with these other temperature controlled machines.

[Homebean]

I'm an H-B newby, devouring your very helpful commentary. I've been pulling home shots for the past 22 years on a Pavoni that I rescued from a friend's trash. Without guidance the results have been hit and miss...from rich, tasty with great crema, to watery and bitter. I've been roasting my own beans for six years, and now its time to FINALLY get a real grinder...and my wife is going to buy it for my 53rd birthday! I mention this because we are generally quite frugal. After 25 years of marriage, we just concluded that we keep our appliances seemingly for life, and therefore its worth investing in the higher quality machines.

Before that realization, by reading your collective comments, reviews and tests, I narrowed my selection to the Ascaso Innova I-2. I remained somewhat concerned about the messiness and virtually single-purpose grind adjustment, so with my wife's encouragement, began considering the Mazzer Mini (quiet, clean and "the last grinder you'll ever buy"). In preparing to commit, I asked a tech support person, and he suggested that I seriously consider the Rancilio Rocky as the best fit. So, reviewing the reviews, it indeed looks like the women, whoops, machine, of my dreams and potentially great marriage--except that the manufacturer's notes actually say its not so great for "larger oily beans".

(Both my wife and I love the darker, oilier, beans, so we aren't likely to give that up for the sake of a finicky addition to our morning ritual).

So can any of you give me a hand to help me make this very long-term commitment? Thanks so much.

[Jarno]

Hi, Homebean. Welcome.

I don't know much about the Ascaso Innova or the Mazzer Mini, but I do have a Rancilio. I have been quite pleased with it. It does give enough grind adjustments but sometimes I wish I had even finer adjustments between the grind settings. But if I had those extra settings, I would probably be confused even more. When people dose and distribute a lot of people here talk about the Weiss Distribution Technique (WDT). I did it at one time, but I found it very time consuming. Since I have a doser, I do what the professional baristas do and "thwack" my coffee into the portafilter. I find it a lot quicker and only infrequently do I have channeling problems, which I believe might be due to the temperature of my brew water rather than distribution.

With regards to oily beans, the oiliest bean I have used is "Black Cat." Sometimes it is very oily and sometimes not, depending on the batch. At any rate, I have not had any problems with my grinder due to the bean. One thing I like about the Rancilio is that it comes apart very easily -- hopper and burrs -- lending itself to a very thorough cleaning. All of the caked on beans and residual grinds can be accessed and cleaned, and the parts removed and washed before reassembling. I do this monthly -- or every other month if I'm lazy.

My current issue with the Rocky is the doser. I think I have a broken spring in it. I have not yet opened this portion of the mechanicals to see how easy it is to fix. But I don't think it will be a major problem.

The price of a new Rancilio is a little north of $300 which is almost half the cost of a Mazzer Mini. If looking for a bargain, one might wish to check ebay but purchase a new set of burrs as this is the part which will most likely be worn.

[Homebean]

Great information. Thanks so much for the feedback and details...very helpful. Happy Thanksgiving.

[mogogear]

IMHO-
Mazzer over Rocky any day- the Mazzer is very much the commercial design and focus- long lasting design- The Rocky is designed for home- it is not a bad grinder at all- it is just not the build quality as the Mazzer.

Your longevity statement makes the vote. Oily beans aside- that just means that you will need to clean whatever you buy more often. The Mazzer will and can serve any espresso machine you ever buy in the future( within reason). I would almost go for a used Super Jolly( a bargain) instead of a Mini at new price.

I have a penchant for the value dollar- and the used Jolly with a new set of burs ( if required )(maybe $275) will last you the rest of your "happy-couple" lives and deliver a slightly better cup - read up on the Titan grinder reviews to check and see how it did vs the really big format conical grinders!

Have fun deciding- sorry to chime in uninvited..

[Homebean]

Thanks so much...you were very helpful and you were invited.

[JohnH]

After lurking for a couple of weeks, and messing with my (new to me) europiccola for about a week I've observed some things about pull volumes that I wonder if anyone else has noticed.

I've been using the double basket with about 12g of coffee. The first pull with about a 20 second pre-infusion seems to be what I'd call a normale about 1.5 oz. The second pull I would guess is a ristretto. Third and subsequent pulls are less than an oz., even with a pre-infusion of up to 30 seconds.

I don't have one of those graduated shot glasses, and am just eyeballing and tasting the third shot is always too strong.

I'm at a loss to discover why this occurs. Is this a sign of the group head overheating?

I think the first 2 shots are pretty good, at least they are better than I can get at my local coffee shop.

Anyway, I'm a complete espresso noob, I've been roasting my own for about a year, but have been using some espresso beans from a local roaster to practice with. This a great site with a lot of info. Thanks.

John

[IMAWriter]

I have experienced this also. It takes a couple pulls to get a double and for the most part they are bitter.

I must have something wrong with my 8 cup Millenium, because I'm getting 2oz with a single pull, Mazzer ground finer than with Anita, Reg tamped to 25lbs or so...25 second pull....counting the 8 second pre-infusion...I want LESS!...I believe more force early results in a richer shot...at least for me...I'm pulling 13 grm in the double basket (51mm group)
The shot is not watery...just not quite the mouth feel I want...I know I can't Anita...but the shot is sweeter...
As a lever noob, I would not feel qualified to assist you, other than to say try a slightly less forceful tamp?
I like a finer grind, easy tamp
What i've noticed is that distribution is less critical than on an HX....

[IMAWriter]

Very interesting.

I should have mentioned, I always make my first lift of the lever with the portafilter loose, to let air in.

The La Pavoni only lets water flow when the lever is nearly at the peak of it's travel.

Same here...thanks to some great earlier threads, at least I've got THAT part right!
The pucks are unfractured...unless I get the dreaded sneeze