La Pavoni Lever. Europiccola Vs Pro ?

[Breaddrink]

Now I'm confused.
I'm drawn to the Pavoni line of lever machines, but I can't decide if the Pro is worth the extra money over the Europiccola. Or for that matter the Gaggia equivilents.

The gauge is supposedly fairly worthless but looks nice, but the arguments seem to be about the water capacity and the two stage on or off thermal switch in the Europiccola Vs the thermostat in the Pro model.
A fairly decent page I've been reading from mentions this and says:
"The Professional's thermostat takes over a crucial element of control from the user, for better or worse; one advantage is that it can be left on for hours"
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~bayer/coffee.html#E

What this means in real terms I'm unsure...The Euro gets hotter perhaps?
If anyone can expand on this I'd be all ears. Obviously I don't want to spend another 200-250 dollars if it isn't needed.
I'm the espresso drinker in the house so the smaller capacity should be fine also, but I do want to make sure before I spend the money, or indeed just wait it out for the new Gaggia? *confusion*

Feel very free to correct me. The world of lever machines is new to me and I know nearly nothing.
Many thanks in advance.

Rob.

[Paul L]

Rob, you'll need someone else to come in on the Professional. When I was making the same decision I was guided by my own usage which does not need shot after shot in general and also the common cry that as the group continues to heat you want to stop after 2 or 3 shots. I therefore stayed with the smaller 0.8L boiler of the plain Europiccola EL deciding it was adequate and to save the money. A hidden benefit has to be a faster warm up. By the time I am prepped to steam the milk and pull the shot the Pavoni is ready, I suspect the Pro takes quite a bit longer.

It therefore might come down to the routine you are going to get into. Again, and purely a personal preference, I prefer to fire up, use, clean and switch off without leaving any home machine on at the mercy of the internal thermostat. It just suits my paranoia and lifestyle.

[HB]

I'm drawn to the Pavoni line of lever machines, but I can't decide if the Pro is worth the extra money over the Europiccola.

Searching on "Europiccola" and "Pro" found Steve's answer to Thinking of a lever machine - but I have a few questions:

While there have been several changes over the years, the professional and the Europiccola are basically the same except for boiler size. The Pro is marketed as 16 cup and the Europiccola is advertised as 8. You are only going to get a couple good shots from both before the grouphead temp gets too high, so I would only think Pro if you are going to do a decent quantity of milk as well. If you look at older units, there will be some differences between the two since the Europiccola kept the dual switch much longer after the Pro converted to the automatic cutoff.

The Europiccola does have a threaded screw on top of the sight-glass that will allow you to add a gauge if you want one. You can see this screw in the picture of the one on your link.

[Teme]

The Europiccola does have a threaded screw on top of the sight-glass that will allow you to add a gauge if you want one. You can see this screw in the picture of the one on your link.

I think La Pavoni has introduced different threading on the current Europiccolas to prevent the installation of the gauge from the (more expensive) Professional.

Br,
Teme

[Hogfire]

Hi Rob,

Allow me to add to the confusion, or at least share what I've learnt about my machine. I've got a Gaggia Factory G106, which seems to be a copy of the higher priced la Pavoni Romantica 16 cup design in chrome. The boiler design is slightly different from the Europiccola and Professional models, but I haven't got a clue if this affects performance.

Personally speaking, the pressure gauge has been very useful. My machine, and I'm assuming the Pavoni Professional as well (despite the review below), has an easily adjustable pressure stat in the bottom of the base. Out of the box, my machine was set at 1.0 bar, which provided mind-blowing steam pressure, but was really too hot for pulling shots. I played with settings, and settled on .7 bar as the best balance between good temps for crema laden, best tasting shots, and still ample steam power. Have a look at this Canadian site's review and comparison of the larger Gaggia to the Professional. However, I'd read it with a grain of salt, as most of the text body sounds like an advertisement rather than an unbiased review. But in the last paragraph, they mention hands on tweaking, and being able to pull shot after shot without burning the espresso.

http://www.coffeecrew.com/content/view/33/28/

Yesterday I had visitors, and the first chance to try pulling shots for more than one person. I was able to pull four doubles back to back, and they were consistent in output, not a burnt flavour in the house. Advertised output is not realistic though, as this exhausted the boiler's water reserve with steaming and pulling water through the group for cleaning. The Canadian review also mentions that the larger boiler capacity provides more steaming reserve, but I don't know if this is true. The 1.6 liter boiler takes about 8 minutes to reach operating temperature, and because of the lower temp/pressure setting I need to initially draw about 150ml of water through the grouphead and portafilter to sufficiently warm up things. The Gaggias were discontinued some time last year, and some online sources were selling their stock for considerably lower prices than the Pavonis. If you can find a Gaggia lever priced below the Pavonis, I reckon that would be a good choice.

However, I would recommend reading through Paul L's posts in this forum, as he offers very logical assessments as to why the smaller model is a good choice if your usage is going to be limited to yourself and possibly another special someone . And have a look at his link to his photos, and you'll see that he achieves spectacular results with the smaller model.

My final bit of advice: keep researching for concrete facts about the differences between the machines, and decide what factors are most important to you before you buy. I lucked out and just happened upon my machine at an estate auction for an unbelievable price, but I really didn't know much about lever machines before I bought it. Learn all you can, and then you will be equipped to make the best choice for your needs/wants.

Whew, all this writing has left me shattered mates!

Best of luck,

Hogfire

[cannonfodder]

I also have the larger of the two Gaggia. I opted for the larger boiler; the pressure gauge was an added plus. I have my machine at work so I occasionally pull 2-3 shots in a series (moochers at work, they have my espresso timeline memorized). I also make a lot of milk based drinks so the added steam power from the larger boiler also came into play. You can also use the pressure gauge to temperature surf. I will cycle the power to keep the machine in the sweet spot and avoid overheating. I could also adjust the pstat to lower the temp but steam power would be effected.


In short, I like my machine and it pulls wonderful shots.

[j7on]

..my machine was set at 1.0 bar, which provided mind-blowing steam pressure, but was really too hot for pulling shots. I played with settings, and settled on .7 bar..

Shouldn't the outgoing water temperature be measured instead of just looking at pressure?

My Pavoni pumps slightly over 1.0bar and it just came back from being calibrated & serviced at local Pavoni dealer(after 10 years of shelf life) and the temp of water is optimal.

[Breaddrink]

I have to say, I'm still a little shocked at the price on the units.
From reading old reviews from around 2002 I can tell that the prices have raised enormously over the last few years, and prices seem suspiciously 'set'. Even on ebay the price is 99 times out of 100 "$779 for the La Pavoni pro", with gaggias nearly unavailable.
Not to say that the Pavoni isn't a beautifully made machine, but at that price it pushes it right up next to the seemingly highly thought of Elektra and Gensaco chrome capucio models.
Correct me if I'm wrong but both have larger PF, sturdier construction and spring mechanisms...And so without that lower price on the Pavonis I've begun to question why they're so highly priced when they all seem to share so many parts and be suspiciously similar in so many ways.

Ah it's confusing.

Is there perhaps a cheaper way to justify the pavonis over those higher end models?
that 779 dollar mark seems almost set in stone and I'm unable to find any for lower, ebay or elsewhere. Do they perhaps sell refurbished models?

Rob.

[KarlSchneider]

Not to say that the Pavoni isn't a beautifully made machine, but at that price it pushes it right up next to the seemingly highly thought of Elektra and Gensaco chrome capucio models.
Correct me if I'm wrong but both have larger PF, sturdier construction and spring mechanisms...And so without that lower price on the Pavonis I've begun to question why they're so highly priced when they all seem to share so many parts and be suspiciously similar in so many ways.

Rob.

Rob,

The Elektra Micro Casa a Leva does not have a larger pf than the new Pavoni's In fact its 49mm pf is smaller than Pavoni's 51mm. The double basket on the Elektra holds more. It can be used in a Pavoni.

The Elektra does indeed have a spring mechanism as opposed to the pure manual mechanism of the Pavoni. According to Steve Robinson the Elektra is sturdier. I trust Steve's judgment on this point.

The fundamental difference appears to be in the spring vs. pure manual mechanism. One can learn to pull extraordinary shots on either. You will be thrilled with either.

[jameseric]

Do they perhaps sell refurbished models?

Try http://www.forzanos.com/ (no, this isn't a paid endorsement, folks--but I did find my Pav Pro Mil here), look for demo returns. The newest models, with original warranty & suchlike. Cost is probably 2/3ds of a never-been-touched by non-italian-hands item. Dino is a good person, quite helpful. Good luck.

BTW, I went with the Pro because of the added steaming capacity (not sure whether the difference matters in practical terms, but at the time it seemed it should), and I like the moveable steam wand on the Pro. Have even used--gasp--the automatic frother wand with good results.

[Paul L]

Hi Eric, out of interest what do you mean by the moveable steam wand of the Pro?
The non-pro has movement as well so does the Pro have additional movement?

Leaving aside any difference for the moment the steam wand is a feature I really like about a Pavoni, I like the movement and I like the fact the whole wand can be removed for a proper clean. I experimented a while back with trying to make a 1-hole tip (I struggled to adjust from a low-powered, slow 1-hole Gaggia that I had really learned to sing with - I know folks who have struggled in the opposite direction). Basically my lifelong machining skills came to the fore and I actually managed to snap the 3-hole tip off - ouch!

A fellow Pavoni user who frequents other forums kindly received it, made a new thread and returned it to me. He managed to recover the tip as well, in the meantime I had immediately bought a spare wand so that the Pav would not be out of use and a spare tip in case. So, each weekend I remove the whole wand and soak it overnight in 'PulyMilk'. I like this an awful lot more than the more fixed wands that one often sees.

My thoughts on your question of cost and best value Rob? Don't look at the initial purchase price. When I saw a Pavoni in action before buying I was visiting someone who had happily used one for 15 years. Now, whether one chooses Pavoni, Elektra or something else then other than a periodic service and perhaps a few spares (in my case another wand, tip, second basket and stainless steel drip tray), the real cost over the longer term says to me that compared with a lot of other kit they're actually pretty cheap.

[Breaddrink]

My thoughts on your question of cost and best value Rob? Don't look at the initial purchase price. When I saw a Pavoni in action before buying I was visiting someone who had happily used one for 15 years. Now, whether one chooses Pavoni, Elektra or something else then other than a periodic service and perhaps a few spares (in my case another wand, tip, second basket and stainless steel drip tray), the real cost over the longer term says to me that compared with a lot of other kit they're actually pretty cheap.

It's a ricky old business alright
I'm going to mull it over for a while rather than jumping right in...I tried a visit to Williams Sonoma to get a hands on look at the La Pavoni, but no go as they didn't have any in store.
Had some remarkable looking 4.5k coffee machines, but no lever machines.

Chances are we could be moving to Seattle, so I may wait around until then.
I think I may have some luck finding some stores to prod the machines in there (opposed to here). It's just difficult going on everything by sight and figures alone.

Many thanks to everyone...No doubt I'll pester you all with more questions

Rob.

[Paul L]

Rob, the best thing you can do is see if you can visit one or two folks to see machines in action. I was lucky enough to visit a couple of hospitable folk here in the UK, generally it seems coffee folk are friendly rather than divided and also do not (generally) get caught up in flaming unlike some other pastimes. In this way I got to see a bunch of things which I might otherwise not really take in just from the written page alone.

I saw an E61 chrome wonder in action on two separate occasions, one a Eurostar 2000 and the other a Vittoria something or other. I saw different home roasts, different tampers, different distribution/tamping/frothing techniques, different cups, different kitchen set-ups and how to approach grinds, pucks and all the other practicalities. I saw a basic Pavoni in action, I tried a few different really good Capps and I benefited enormously from the generosity of the hosts in both knowledge and take-homes.

I thoroughly recommend it if you can hook up in your area. You are right to take your time and take in which direction suits you. When I bought my cheap Gaggia I expected to lust after an E61, PID and lots of other paraphernalia, I still might from a learning and maybe a going-into business-perspective. However, my own preference for a simple, neat Pavoni set-up only came about by taking my time and thinking it all through. Good luck.

[RCMann]

After having used a Europiccola daily for the past three years, the glitches I found really annoying were:

The light weight of the base which doesn't instill confidence when pulling shots. I just got used to holding onto the filler knob with the non-lever hand so it wouldn't tip over.
The flexibility of the base which makes a purported 'solid' machine seem not so solid.
The boiler is not attached firmly enough to the base, and moves off axis to the L/R-just looks wonky and, again, annoying.
Peeling chrome from the group head.

I got the machine new, by the way.

That being said, I've pulled some great shots from it and figured I'd live with it's quirks forever until I got on this forum and caught Cremina fever-I snagged a great 1974 machine off ebay for $400 with all the original parts and brochures to boot.

I've got consistently better shots overall with the Cremina, and that's with old seals and gaskets, new ones still haven't arrived from Switzerland.

It's way more solid than the Pavoni, with a lot of SS hardware and bodywork. It's got much more of a quality feel.

Another bonus is you don't have to worry about scalding your hand/arm on the tank, which doesn't happen often, but will on occasion.

I also added a pressure gauge, but that certainly isn't essential, and didn't include it in the cost (the gauge was <$100). I just like to watch the pressure cycle, but I did use it to adjust the pull pressure to .8 bar as recommended by Markus at Cremina Switzerland. So far so good.

So between the machine and the gaskets, I've got ~$500 in a great lever machine that outperforms the Pavoni and hopefully won't cost as much, unless you get into a bidding war. Check for BIN early and often every day, and if something comes up be prepared to buy it if it looks in reasonable shape. Don't waste valuable time asking questions if everything seems right. Chances are when you go back to my ebay it will, as Verbal Kint said at the end of The Usual Suspects-"Poof! It's gone!"

Good luck...Rod

[cannonfodder]

After having used a Europiccola daily for the past three years, the glitches I found really annoying were:

The light weight of the base which doesn't instill confidence when pulling shots. I just got used to holding onto the filler knob with the non-lever hand so it wouldn't tip over.
The flexibility of the base which makes a purported 'solid' machine seem not so solid.
The boiler is not attached firmly enough to the base, and moves off axis to the L/R-just looks wonky and, again, annoying.
Peeling chrome from the group head.

You can get a non skid shelf liner, or go to a wood working store and get a router mat. It is a very sticky, spongy material. I cut a chunk to fit the base of my machine, that keeps it from moving around, the added weight from the larger boiler helps a bit as well.

When I pull my shots, I hold the portafilter handle, the steam knob would be very easy to burned while holding it and pulling a shot.

I do not have any flex in my machine, nor does the boiler move on the base. It is rock solid.

I have heard of the peeling chrome on the older machines, but three years is not that old. Hopefully they addressed that with the new production. My Gaggia is about 6 months old and I am starting to get it down pat. Yes, it takes a lot of practice to get good shots from a non spring assisted lever.

[HB]

Yes, it takes a lot of practice to get good shots from a non spring assisted lever.

Steve thought my (spring lever) Microcasa was harder to dial in because he couldn't finesse the pressure through the pull. I would like to borrow his Cremina to test that assertion, but I'm waiting for the afterglow of his recently completed restoration to die down.

[espressoperson]

I also added a pressure gauge, but that certainly isn't essential, and didn't include it in the cost (the gauge was <$100). I just like to watch the pressure cycle, but I did use it to adjust the pull pressure to .8 bar as recommended by Markus at Cremina Switzerland. So far so good.

Details, pictures, please. I'd love to see how this is done.

[RCMann]

I'm pretty dead tonight, but here's an edited version of what I pm'd oly_puller after I did it-he offered some sage advice as well.

I slowly removed her bodywork, purged her of all extraneous fluids, and gently laid her on her back on the sink. I shut the blinds, and thanking God my wife was in California, I drilled her!

I was a little concerned the bar might be segmented into chambers with thinner walls that I wouldn't be able to tap, but should have known better. It's an Olympia!

Solid bar with a hole drilled through it, I got 3-4mm of solid brass in front of the existing channel from the boiler to the pressure relief valve. As you mentioned, I put it between the head and the sight glass. It's a 40mm diameter gauge, fits fine.

Mark where you want the gauge, then use a small diameter bit to gently drill into the steam channel. Now that you know exactly where the channel is, you can dive in with whatever drill size is recommended for the tap you'll be using, which of course depends on the gauge you've got. If you're in the US, 1/8 NPT is perfect. Don't go bigger! And is actually better to hit it 2-3 times with increasing drill sizes, makes the metal removal go pretty gently.

Tapped it, cleaned it (shopvac) as I drilled/tapped then flushed out the channels, boiler, etc and put everything together with a little Finish Line bicycle grease. Hope it's not too toxic.

I used a nice gauge-Ashcroft stainless steel, glass lens, glycerin filled. $83 before tax/shipping. Not made in the US, but not made in China! Brazil, which is an espresso type of place, so country of origin is fine. Unfortunately couldn't get it in bar without waiting for 18 weeks for a custom job, so I settled for 0-30 psi, which for our Euro friends is 1-2 bar. Please, I'm not being condescending!

It shut off at 11.8 psi and on at 8.2, so I tweaked the adjuster to shut it off around 14 and back on around 10, it pulled shots at 12, which is .8 bar, which is what Markus said to use.

I've had it apart a couple of times now with the old seals, so it loses pressure pretty fast although there are no glaringly obvious leaks, new seals should tighten it up.

Got no digital because my wife's on vacation in California (it's actually where we live, we're temporarily in beautiful eastern NC.) and she took it.

I joined the clone army and Thor's making me some handles, I'll post all when I get those on the machine.

[Paul L]

I also have to say that:

* I burned myself slightly on the boiler in the first couple of weeks but that's all. I don't inadvertently brush my arm/hand against the tank and do not find this a problem or an occurrence since then

* Whilst it's true the Pav is top-heavy I don't find it a problem. The key as everyone says is in using the other hand to keep it steady or to address the base. I read of one person who filled the base with shot (lead presumably not coffee!). When pulling a shot, I keep things steady with my hand on the boiler cap, not on the pf. No, I do not get burned with steam. I also do this after use when purging the pressure out of the boiler and whilst there is a much greater volume of steam, no, I don't burn myself doing this either.

* I do (rightly or wrongly) sense that men probably get on easier with a Pavoni than women (I know this is not an absolute statement). Height seems an advantage so that you can press down on the boiler cap (rather than stretch out or reach up!) and also have your arm bent at 90 degrees to smoothly pull a shot (think snooker cues if you know what I mean). I can see why some would struggle. Of course, the obvious answer in this case is put it at a slightly lower height than the average kitchen counter-top!

* Whilst the weight is clearly in the boiler, mine is not lop-sided or loose. Nor has the chrome peeled, it is only 3 months old though. Before use I pick it up to empty it over the sink so that I start from empty. Common sense dictates that I do so by holding the boiler rather than the base. Having hands large enough to hold it by the boiler no doubt helps. The other hand is loosely on the group (or pf if in place) just in case.

So, I can't say I have had quality issues as yet but I'm always reluctant to post on this aspect of any equipment during early days. Until the honeymoon period with equipment is over, until one has lived through a year or two of use, gone through periodic maintenance and/or spares and basically lived with something over the longer term I don't think we have a rounded view. So, I can't knock the criticisms and clearly things do happen to cause loss of pressure, the lever rising of its own accord, quality problems, drips et al. Assuming peeling chrome and basic quality has improved over time so that it's either a rarity or a thing of the past I have assumed that this should serve well year after year without the complexity and attention that many of the revered HX and 'elite' set-ups will probably demand.

Given the results the Pav is capable of I look forward to trying a Cremina at some time, if it is truly that good I suspect a few more of us will join the club over time.