La Pavoni Filter Baskets?

[trembldm]

After getting a new grinder, I'm finally seeing crema in my shots! But this has brought up a couple more questions...

1) I have a Europiccola Millenium 8 Cup model. I only ever pull the lever down once for a nice sized single shot. I've been using the double basket for this. Should I be using the single basket?

2) How long should it take me to pull a single shot on the La Pavoni?

3) How hard should I really have to pull the lever? 10 lbs of force? 20 lbs?

I would love to make the step from making good espresso to great espresso, but I just don't have the experience to know what to expect.

Thanks,
Dave

[Gatewood]

I have the same machine. I use a double pull for the double basket. I only use the single pull for my single basket. The thing is, you don't get a lot of espresso from either one. At least, I don't. If I only pull once with the double, it's not as good. But then, I'm such a newbie. My espresso tastes great, however, and I do get plenty of crema.

I don't think I use a whole lot of pressure. I use all the strength I have, but I'm a little old lady and have not a lot of strength. I lean on that thing! But it takes two hands (I have to pull up on the portafilter handle to steady the machine.) and pretty much all my effort. If I pull too hard, though, I get water kind of bubbling out of the place where the boiler and lever apparatus meet. At that point, I back off. Sorry, but I haven't done the bathroom scale thing to see what kind of pressure I'm using. To me, as long as it tastes good, I don't particularly give a blast. I do try to keep the length of the pull about 25 to 30 seconds.

[kbuzbee]

Hi Dave, I have the same model and get wonderful shots as long as the coffee is fresh.


1. I don't even know where my single basket is....

2. I lift the lever all the way to charge the portafilter, then 1/5 (or so) pump 2-3 times until resistence is stable, then all the way down. The preload part is 7 seconds and the pull is generally around 13 seconds.

3. Pressure on the lever isn't too high, maybe 10-12 pounds. I grind a little more coarse than some and tamp very hard. I find my shots more consistent this way. Do you have a decent tamper or are you using the plastic thingie they include with the machine???

The key is the grind. If you grind too fine you lock up the machine. If you grind too coarse the coffee flies through the machine regardless of how hard I tamp. I tamp about 40-50 pounds! I grind as coarse as I can where, at that tamp, I get a great pour.

Hope this helps,

Ken

[Gatewood]

Wow, Ken; you pump a bunch of times? I think I just learned something! Sometimes I don't have any pressure, and that's when I get a bad shot. I'll try it your way next time.

[trembldm]

Thanks for all your help.

I am using a different tamper. It is wood and not particularly comfortable, but it fits the filter basket nicely. The plastic one had all this room on the edge which was killing me. I'll be sure to try the technique you described. The biggest confusion was definitely how hard I should be pulling.

Just reading this post makes me crave a drink. I think I need to head back upstairs and make a night cap! Woohoo!

Dave

[kbuzbee]

Gatewood, yes, the initial charge (hold it up 3 sec) plus 2-4 but those are very small. The handle moves down 1" or so then back up. Just enough to encourage the water to find it's way into the coffee. Let me know how it works out for you.

Dave, I would focus more on your grind and your tamp and watch the shot. Look for great crema. Deep brown, tiger striped. When you get close you'll get a feel for how hard the pull will be each time but use the force of the pull as feedback on how the grind and tamp are working rather than as a goal. One of the beautiful things about a lever machine is the force of the pull is YOU. You can adjust the force to improve the shot - realtime. You give that up if you decide ahead of time your pull should be 10 pounds or 12 pounds or whatever.

The last point is loading the portafilter. I find my best shots are when the portafilter has as much coffee as it will hold. Figuring how much this is - is - less than obvious.... Too much and the portafilter won't lock into place. Too little and the pull will be thin and sour. I find the loose coffee should mound about 1/8" abouve the rim. Distribute it using your favorite method (toothpick, thumb, spoon whatever - there are numerous threads about distribution here) - it will be level with the rim. Then tamp hard (some here disagree about the tamp force but this works well for me). When I'm done I have a level, smooth surface ~1/8" below the rim.

Ken

[happytamper]

I have a 8 cup pavoni as well and I always use the double basket. I let the machine warm up and when ready I pull the lever all the way up for about ten seconds, then slowly pull down until a few drops of coffee come out, then I pull the lever all the way up again for a few seconds. Now is the time I slowly pull all the way down, pressure depends on my grind and tamp. I use a Zassenhaus, so my grind is not too consistent, and a happytamper. However I am getting a lot of crema and generally my shots are good, with the odd disastrous one. I also roast my own beans so i am sure this is adding alot to my crema and taste situation.

Practice and experiment will be the best guide.

[kbuzbee]

Which Zass do you have Mitchell?? I get very consistent grind from my 171Kd. And I recently found a 175M (the Turkish mill). Too early to do a full review but so far I really like it. And it is MUCH faster than the 171KD.

Ken

[happytamper]

Hi Ken,

I have a Zassenhaus Moka Knee grinder. It grinds well but I notice that the setting changes slightly as i grind. But my shots are coming out fine. Lots of flavour, crema and pretty consistent. If I see the grind is a little more coarse I tamp a bit harder. I like the pavoni matched with a Zassenhaus. Seems like everything is a bit too controled with the pump machines. I enjoy being more involved with the process. That goes with roasting the beans as well.

I would love to get an old grinder that has those large cast wheels on either side. I am going to keep my eyes open and maybe find one on ebay. And if I can not locate one I will make one of my own. A bronze coffee grinder, just have to find the mechanism and design around it. Maybe even use the Zassenhaus guts. Another project to keep me busy when i can not find any inspiration to sculpt in my studio.

[kbuzbee]

I like the pavoni matched with a Zassenhaus. Seems like everything is a bit too controled with the pump machines. I enjoy being more involved with the process. That goes with roasting the beans as well.

Amen Bother. I find I enjoy the process of coffee, not just the results. And Zass provide so much more harmony in the morning. The last thing I want is that horrible grinder noisse of an electric unit.

I would love to get an old grinder that has those large cast wheels on either side. I am going to keep my eyes open and maybe find one on ebay. And if I can not locate one I will make one of my own. A bronze coffee grinder, just have to find the mechanism and design around it. Maybe even use the Zassenhaus guts. Another project to keep me busy when i can not find any inspiration to sculpt in my studio.

Interesting. So you weld?? Do you have a website with your sculpture??

Very cool,

Ken

[happytamper]

Hi Ken,

You can take a look at some of my work at http://www.kotansky.com .

Being a sculptor has been great for my coffee obsession(?). I also have another small eurpiccola that I bought on ebay without the portafilter and had a good time designing a bronze portafilter to fit the machine. I use it everyday. works well and looks cool. You can see it on my thread a little lower on the Lever machine index called help on cappuccino amore.

all the best,

[kbuzbee]

I would love to get an old grinder that has those large cast wheels on either side. I am going to keep my eyes open and maybe find one on ebay. And if I can not locate one I will make one of my own. A bronze coffee grinder, just have to find the mechanism and design around it. Maybe even use the Zassenhaus guts. Another project to keep me busy when i can not find any inspiration to sculpt in my studio.

Like this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:78&item=6268091242&id=&sasel=

Ken

[Viktor Navorsky]

Thanks to all of you for sharing your tips. Am a nubie to the joys of lever espresso machines, and needless to say my Pavoni and I are still getting acquainted. To minimize the variables I'm using a high quality pre-ground coffee and am not too worried as yet about the lack of crema. Am just trying to develop the art of making a a relatively consistent shot. So, thanks for sharing, I now have some new options to try. Ken, it's nice to know I'm not the only one in NE OH with a Pavoni!

[kbuzbee]

Welcome to the forum, Viktor. I understand your point about fresh coffee but you honestly will be AMAZED at the difference it makes. We roast Mondays and you are welcome to come by the roastery if you are able to make it over to Willoughby. If you let me know ahead I'll bring my Pavoni and we can have some fun!

Ken

[srobinson]

with regards to your question

1) You can use either the single or the double basket...depends on the end result you would like to achieve. I use the double and about a pull and a half until the coffee blondes for a normal espresso. I also use the double with a single pull for a ristretto.

2) This depends on your grind. I look to 20-30 seconds, per pull. I like a grind where I can keep consistent mouse-tails from both sides of the spouts.

3) You really need to pull with 40lbs pressure. If you go over to the bench review that I did on the Olympia, you will see some graphs that show lever pressure through a standard double pull. The 40lb start will equate to the 9ATM needed for a true espresso.....yes, it is alot, and yes, you will get good results. I think I showed some shots of this also in my Pavoni-Elektra comparison thread.

Use extremely fresh coffee and this type of pull and you will have no issue seeing crema. Have Tony send you some fresh Ambrosia from Caffe Fresco and you will be amazed.