La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment - Page 3

[HB]

I would probably buy an Elektra, but my understanding is that it does not come as a pour over. Is there anything available that I am overlooking, or anything that might soon become available (Synesso maybe)?

La Marzocco GS3, Elektra A3, and Synesso Cyncra. That's a hard trio to beat. Have you considered bottled water and a Flojet?

[cannonfodder]

I have been on the waiting list for a GS3 for roughly two years now. I had initially been told to expect the machine fall 2006, then late 2006, then early 2007, then July 2007, and have now been told that machines are not expected in the US until early 2008. I was told that the holdup is now due to problems with UL listing, but I am wondering if there is more going on here. It shouldn't take a year to get a UL listing, and even if that was the only issue it makes me wonder why they have encountered such difficulty with UL that they have not been able to solve.

In any case, I have a ECM Giotto that needs to be replaced in the very near future. I have nursed that machine along in the hopes of replacing it with the GS3, but I can only wait so much longer, and my enthusiasm for waiting has been diminished by seeing threads like this. My problem is that I really want a great machine, and I am having trouble finding one in this general class that does not have to be plumbed in, which is simply not an option in my kitchen. I would probably buy an Elektra, but my understanding is that it does not come as a pour over. Is there anything available that I am overlooking, or anything that might soon become available (Synesso maybe)? I would have hoped that the extreme enthusiasm for the GS3 would have pushed other manufacturers to develop a machine to compete in this market segment, and Marzocco's inability to deliver the machine would seem to offer an excellent opportunity to do so. Any thoughts on where I might look for other options? Thanks.

I would not necessarily let this discourage you from getting one. Hopefully these first generation bugs will be worked out by the time it hits the US shores. I will not argue that a LM does not make a good cup, it does. The question to ask yourself is does it make a $4500+ cup.

The GS3 offers rock solid temperature stability, easy to change temperature, plumb in or pour over and you get the prestige that goes along with owning a LaMarzocco. As to the Elektra and Synesso, a 5 gallon water jug and flojet will resolve the water supply problem, but they also need drained out. Another bucket for the drain line works well, or put them beside the kitchen sink and just hang the drain line over the edge.

[Marshall]

I have been on the waiting list for a GS3 for roughly two years now. I had initially been told to expect the machine fall 2006, then late 2006, then early 2007, then July 2007, and have now been told that machines are not expected in the US until early 2008. I was told that the holdup is now due to problems with UL listing, but I am wondering if there is more going on here. It shouldn't take a year to get a UL listing, and even if that was the only issue it makes me wonder why they have encountered such difficulty with UL that they have not been able to solve.

UL changed its rules this year so that the manufacturer of the heating elements for the boilers must get their own UL certification, before LM can get theirs. The ESI folks at Charlotte were pretty exasperated by the whole experience.

[Makanmata]

UL changed its rules this year so that the manufacturer of the heating elements for the boilers must get their own UL certification, before LM can get theirs. The ESI folks at Charlotte were pretty exasperated by the whole experience.

I got that explanation too, but I can't say that it is a very convincing to me. Assuming that the UL Listing Rules have changed -- and I can't find any source suggesting that they have, or are materially different than the CSA listing that the machine has secured -- I have to imagine that this is not a part that is entirely unique to the GS3, and don't see why this should be an impediment, and certainly not one that couldn't have been dealt with in a year's time. I suspect that for whatever reason, LM is in no rush to release this to the US market. Its speculation of course, but I'm wondering if LM has concluded that the machine is not ready for prime time as currently designed.

My problem is more a practical one though, in that I have a machine that is literally on its last legs, and requires too much TLC to make acceptable coffee. Before long, I won't be able to get anything decent out of it, and with no GS3 even on the horizon at this point, I can't wait any longer to replace this machine, and need to look at different options. Drinking my coffee out while I wait for the GS3 is just not an option.

I appreciate the suggestions of the Elektra and the Synesso, but I'm afraid that they aren't good options for me. The flo-jet/jug solution is one that my wife won't find acceptable from an aesthetic standpoint. While I think that I could make the Elektra work if they had a pour-over option, neither machine is really designed for home use the way that the GS3 is, and both require beefed up electricals, lots more space, and I suspect throw off a lot more ambient heat. The Synesso is a particularly attractive machine, but it just doesn't seem at all practical for a standard kitchen (unless you have a very easy going spouse). It would be great if Synesso would follow LM's lead and tweak the design to shrink its footprint and make it friendlier for household electrics. Lots of us waiting for the GS3 would surely jump ship to that machine -- if it existed. Elektra is really already more than halfway there, but it doesn't seem that they have any plans to tweak the A3 to bring it the rest of the way. The GS3 might still be my best choice, but I don't know how I am going to wait another 6 months (at a minimum) for the machine.

[Marshall]

I got that explanation too, but I can't say that it is a very convincing to me. Assuming that the UL Listing Rules have changed -- and I can't find any source suggesting that they have, or are materially different than the CSA listing that the machine has secured -- I have to imagine that this is not a part that is entirely unique to the GS3, and don't see why this should be an impediment, and certainly not one that couldn't have been dealt with in a year's time. I suspect that for whatever reason, LM is in no rush to release this to the US market. Its speculation of course, but I'm wondering if LM has concluded that the machine is not ready for prime time as currently designed.

Your personal disappointment is no reason to weave conspiracy theories out of thin air. No one is more upset about this than the ESI people. And, just to put my own disappointment in perspective, we had an entire coffee bar built out in our home with the GS3 template guiding the carpenter!

[coffeedoc]

I am increasingly concerned what other faults may not have been resolved as yet. I am incredibly disillusioned with La Marzocco's response that there is nothing wrong with the product, and at the end of the day I feel ripped off.

Hi Rosemary

It would seem to me that the greatest disappointment is not so much the machine itself but the response by La Marzocco. We all would have expected better. IMHO any machine can will only be as good as the support behind it. It would appear La Marzocco have some damage control to undertake.
Clearly you have gone for the top of the line. Did you consider the Vivaldi II? Suggestions have been made that it would make a good competitor at half the price. I am considering it (can't afford the GS3) but have been unable to find out what sort of support is available down under. I am from New Zealand but if there was a reliable distributor in Aussi that would work. Just wondered if you had checked this out as an option.

Hang in there.

Chris

[Rosemary]

Hi Chris

Welcome to Home Barista. We lived in Hamilton for 12 months many moons ago.

I'm sorry I can't answer your specific question as to distributors in Australia. We have for the last 14 years used a Cimbali Junior pourover and when we did our kitchen five years ago we weren't thinking of becoming so addicted to our quality coffee as to think of plumbing it in. We could do it but the degree of difficullty is high hence the bias to pourover.

This website with all it's fantastic discussions has been detrimental to our fiscal status. Along with much useful advice from Ken Fox and others when I was repairing the Cimbali I have also been highly influenced by the testing and discussion of the GS3 by very able and knowledgeable people, allied with the strong reputation of La Marzocco.

Rosemary

[HB]

While I think that I could make the Elektra work if they had a pour-over option, neither machine is really designed for home use the way that the GS3 is, and both require beefed up electricals, lots more space, and I suspect throw off a lot more ambient heat.

I borrowed a GS3 for a week (link) during the summer and can confirm it throws off a tremendous amount of heat, at least as much as the Elektra A3. Teme has posted that "the [newer GS3] steam boiler now comes with partial insulation (top and back of the boiler)," so the situation may have improved.

[Makanmata]

Your personal disappointment is no reason to weave conspiracy theories out of thin air. No one is more upset about this than the ESI people. And, just to put my own disappointment in perspective, we had an entire coffee bar built out in our home with the GS3 template guiding the carpenter!

I don't think that is a particularly fair or accurate charactarization of the comment in my post. No conspiracy was alleged, and my disappointment did not in any way form the basis for my comment.

I am certainly disappointed, but that has nothing to do with the clearly identified basis for my comment. The fact remains that the machine is already listed by CSA, and is actually for sale in the rest of the world. IEC and UL standards are concededly not identical, but are not so wildly different that it should take a year longer to secure a listing or recognition from one or the other body. The explanation that the UL Rules have changed, or could be the sole basis for such a significant delay, does not in my estimation tell the whole story.

So what is the whole story? I don't know, and I don't feel that LM is being fully candid with their customers about the status of the machine -- and perhaps are not being candid to ESI either. I can say from my own personal experience, that while I don't feel economically abused in the sense that they are not holding any of my money and have never asked for a deposit or financial committment on my part, and are under no contractual obligation to deliver anything to me at any time, the story told to me has consistently changed over time and the repeated promises of imminent delivery have gone unfulfilled.

If you have more information than I about the specific UL Listing issues, and can tell me what specific listing Rule has changed or how that Rule differs from the IEC Rule, and further explain why the original equipment manufacturer of the component in question (the heating element) does not have it separately listed already or cannot get it listed when it is already listed sufficiently for sale to the rest of the world, or that there is a reason why in any case all of this could not have been dealt with in this extended period of time, then I will stand corrected. Until then, without any factual support for LM's laying this all at UL's feet, my assumption is that this is another piece of vaporware that has been announced too far in advance of its real world readiness for sale. This assumption is in no way based in any way on my disappointment, but rather is grounded upon objective facts and circumstances.

Lastly, I should point out that while I would have preferred more candor on the part of LM as far as delivery expectations, I would rather wait for a machine that is ready for public sale, then pay for a machine in which they are still ironing out bugs. I might actually be more agitated by this if I lived in Europe and had taken posession of a machine, which for some reason the manufacturer says cannot -- or in any case will not -- be sold in the United States.

[pdx]

The Synesso is a particularly attractive machine, but it just doesn't seem at all practical for a standard kitchen (unless you have a very easy going spouse). It would be great if Synesso would follow LM's lead and tweak the design to shrink its footprint and make it friendlier for household electrics. Lots of us waiting for the GS3 would surely jump ship to that machine -- if it existed.

I don't see Synesso entering the home market any more directly than they already have with the 110 Cyncra. I'm sure that generally the home user is much more difficult to support than commercial clients. They do have a couple of other machines in development, but they're commercial & it'll be a couple of years before they're out in the US market. Still, I have a 110v Cyncra in my small kitchen (my whole house is 860 s.f.) & its not too bad. The plumbing & electrical work only took a couple of hours. My wife doesn't drink coffee but gets a lot of use out of the hot water tap making tea. We mostly just use the steam wand to heat bottles of formula for our son.

[Psyd]

My problem is more a practical one though, in that I have a machine that is literally on its last legs, and requires too much TLC to make acceptable coffee. Before long, I won't be able to get anything decent out of it, and with no GS3 even on the horizon at this point, I can't wait any longer to replace this machine, and need to look at different options.

Get the new, PID'ed Silvia. Will it be a replacement for what you presently have? I dunno. I do know, though, that she can put out exceptional shots and that you'll not lose too much on the resale, if and when you get your GS3. You could spend a lot more on a stop-gap machine, but very few of them are as easy to find new homes for, while retaining as large a percentage of their initial sale price.

[erics]

Or a PID'ed Alexia and you may very well lose the thought of any GS3 until the dinner party rolls in.

[boar_d_laze]

Makanamata feels ripped off because he spent so much anticipatory capital in his decision to buy a GS3. While its current state of development is good enough to satisfy a select group of enthusiasts, the GS3, is, alas, not ready for prime time. Nor does it look as if La Marzocco will get it that way soon.

Making a cup of coffee is intellectual and sensual. Drinking it sensual and emotional. Machine choice involves intellect, sense and emotion -- not to mention wife and wallet. The chain of equipment and technique going into brewing coffee is spoiled with one twisted link. But, because the nature of superiority is to reveal and not obscure, no single link can repair it. A machine is one of those links, so the best we hope for is a machine which doesn't screw up in revealing distinct notes or their gestalt.

Near the top end of machines there are quite a few which, when properly operated, will not compromise the cup. Read "properly operated" as "with a certain amount of noisy, hit-or-miss screwing around." No question one can pull a good shot out of a tweaked Silvia, but the suggestion doesn't address the aesthetic behind Makanamata's willingness to part with 5 grand for a coffee machine.

There are a couple of pour-overs that aren't compromises, but destinations in themselves; each capable of bringing out the best in a bean without too much effort: The La Cimbali Junior "S," and the Astra Gourmet. Neither requires more than a short spritz to hit the temperature to which it's adjusted. The Astra shows what can be done with a modular approach, taking the the best commercially available components, and arranging them intelligently on a solid chassis. With its big boiler the Astra has better steam and, with its better resulting temperature stability, could maybe pull the better shot. If Junior is bested in coffee at all, it isn't by much. The best shot I ever drank, I pulled my (inexpert) self from the Junior S in Pasquini's Los Angeles showroom.

Vis a vis the GS3 their only real shortfall is ease of adjusting to particular temperatures for bean changes. That doesn't mean much to me. If it did, I'd find a way to live with a Brewtus. However, I'm happy to find blend/roast combinations that suit my ancient Livia 90 (which itself nears its "replace by" date). If Makanamata is as easily satisfied in that respect, if he doesn't use much steam very often, and he recognizes La Cimbali's modern Italian, industrial-design, good looks, he'd start tracking down a La Cimbali Max grinder to pair with a Junior -- both in brass. Countach!

The Astra is great looking in its own right, as good as any HX machine made (including the Elektra A3/T1), can be had in a variety of decor matching and wife-pleasing side panels, and is built in the U.S. of A. :flag on Mt. Suribachi:.

Or not,
Rich

[Marshall]

The Astra shows what can be done with a modular approach, taking the the best commercially available components, and arranging them intelligently on a solid chassis. With its big boiler the Astra has better steam and, with its better resulting temperature stability, could maybe pull the better shot.

Interestingly, while the Astra Gourmet looks at first glance like it was assembled from stock parts, many of them, including the E-61-ish brewhead, were custom designed for the machine. The brewhead is fabricated by a shop in the San Fernando Valley near Richard's factory.

[boar_d_laze]

Interestingly, while the Astra Gourmet looks at first glance like it was assembled from stock parts, many of them, including the E-61-ish brewhead, were custom designed for the machine. The brewhead is fabricated by a shop in the San Fernando Valley near Richard's factory.

Thanks. Good to know. Astra is high on the list of possible replacements for my own aging machine. I like how their machines work, and admire the design philosophy behind them.

R

[Psyd]

No question one can pull a good shot out of a tweaked Silvia, but the suggestion doesn't address the aesthetic behind Makanamata's willingness to part with 5 grand for a coffee machine.

Gestalt aside, it really does.
His dilemma, as it was described to me, was that he wanted to get the GS3, and his present machine didn't have the legs to make it til the GS3 was available in his neighborhood. He wasted great coffee in the meantime, and didn't want to have to go out for it. He also presented the possibility of a new machine, but one that's purchase price meant that it would be replacing that aesthetic with settling. The Silvia presents a bit of a 'cake and eat it, too' scenario, in that she isn't that expensive, will pull great shots (by even your admission) and will return on the investment satisfactorily over the period that she will be owned, ostensibly til the GS3 is available. With the way that she retains her value, the Silvia would probably cost the user less than a 50 cents a cup over a year over and above water, coffee, and electricity costs, at the rate of drinks a day. I'd bet that even a GS3 purchaser would have difficulty letting go of her, however, as she's kicking my Astoria's butt at the moment, and makes a great travel machine.
Makanamata gets coffee in the interim, without breaking the bank and without expending resources that would prohibit that 5K investment in his dream machine, and has the choice of recovering a huge percentage (comparatively) of his investment fairly easily and painlessly, or having a great little travel machine that makes exceptional espresso.
What's the downside again?

[Marshall]

Thanks. Good to know. Astra is high on the list of possible replacements for my own aging machine. I like how their machines work, and admire the design philosophy behind them.

R

And don't overlook the advantages of the manufacturer being in your backyard. Richard Hourizideh is terrific about customer service. I spent an afternoon with him at the factory and he kept taking calls personally, advising customers on service issues around the country (mostly commercial installations).

[boar_d_laze]

What's the downside?

From your perspective, there isn't one. From mine, imagining Makanmata's, there are several, including appearance, lack of "presence," noise of the pump, steam issues, average quality of the coffee, and shot to shot consistency. While you occasionally get a great cup and usually get a good one, the thermal consistency brought by PID control doesn't resolve all of Silvia's problems. My opinion. Of course, you may have flushed Makanmaata's nail.

I wanted to analyze a different POV without invalidating yours, which is a good one. Partly for the fun of it, and partly because I expect to be getting serious about a new machine sometime in the next year or so and have reached the point where it's worth writing my thoughts in order to organize and clarify them. In that sense it was selfish. The underlying assumption in my scenario, is that since it will be so long before a perfected GS3 hits the market (Sno-Cones on the fourth circle, anyone?), it makes sense to purchase a different "ultimate" choice rather than a stopgap. The machines I mentioned are the only ones with pour-over models on my list, and worthy of mention at least.

[D]on't overlook the advantages of the manufacturer being in your neighborhood...

That Astra is only a few minutes away (gods of the 210 willing) from me, is a real plus among the others I mentioned and the many I didn't, including boiler size.

That Pasquini sells Cimbalis is another plus. I really like that old gonif. From him, I'm thinking a Junior D, plus a Max grinder. If you ever shop at Pasquini, be aware you'll get a better deal from anyone else there, but he pours the grappa. You have to be cagey.

FWIW, the only other manufacturer currently under excited consideration is Elektra for the A3 and the Belle Epoque. At any rate, I'll hold off until the plumbing or electricity in my house forces me to do some work, or my Livia needs something expensive. I know it's a tangent, but I'd be interested in any thoughts, especially negative ones, about the machines I mentioned or any others at the same rarefied level.

[Psyd]

The underlying assumption in my scenario, is that since it will be so long before a perfected GS3 hits the market (Sno-Cones on the fourth circle, anyone?), it makes sense to purchase a different "ultimate" choice rather than a stopgap.

I guess that this is where we part ways. I was under the impression that the ultimate goal was getting the GS3, and the OP was looking for a solution to it not being available, and his present machine not making it to the LM's elusive availability date.
Buying another 'ultimate' choice is sort of defeatist, buying a stopgap machine is, well, what the doctor ordered, n'est ce-pas?
I guess it boils down to what the guy really wants, a GS3 or just a great espresso machine.

[boar_d_laze]

I guess that this is where we part ways. I was under the impression that the ultimate goal was getting the GS3, and the OP was looking for a solution to it not being available, and his present machine not making it to the LM's elusive availability date.
Buying another 'ultimate' choice is sort of defeatist, buying a stopgap machine is, well, what the doctor ordered, n'est ce-pas?

Mais biensur non. It is not defeatist. Makanmata's reconsideration of high end pour-overs is pure good luck. From what he's written regarding the Elektra A3, inferring he's willing to engage in a survey of the very best pour-overs, but is dubious whether any will meet his expectations of the GS3 would deliver is reasonable.

From my familiarity with they way high-end, hobbyist products enter the consumer marketplace, "at least 6 months" seems highly optimistic if he's expecting a GS3 design approaching eta.*

The hole in Rosemary's baby's was more than bad work, it's a message to the marketplace. LM are still screwing lugs into the tray and drilling holes in the frame, when the obvious solutions are to either friction fit the tray, or mold a locating dimple into the plastic, and fix a button on the frame. When a manufacturer is doing hand work instead of ordering mass produced plastic for a machine expected to sell in the tens of thousands, the manufacturer hasn't settled on the design. Even if there were some good reason to drill a hole in the flat stock, the right time to do it would have been before welding.

Additionally, that hole resulted from using the wrong type of bit, PLUS not using a backer to hold the tip from chattering once it pierced the bar stock, PLUS not properly clamping the stock because the pre-assembled frame was too large to fit in the drill-press vise. The point being, not only have they not settled on a design, they're willing to put up with a chain of screw ups to get the product on the market. When they gut busted, the response, "Looks fine to me," comes as no surprise to anyone who has ever dealt with more than a few Italian "precision" manufacturers of anything, from bearings to fountain pens. Yes their response may be modified with your willingness to deal both the importer and the factory itself, lots of patience, a great sense of humor, a European second language other than German, and waking up at odd hours to phone Italy while Italy's disposed to answer. The behavior required is decidedly unAmerican. Not everyone's willing to invest that time. And, you know what? One shouldn't have to, should one?

Do you know how Lamborghini got into the car business? Lamborghini got rich making tractors, and as a rich, married playboy with several mistresses, bought a Ferrari. But he couldn't get it to run right, and got the runaround from the Ferrari underlings. He ambushed old man Ferrari at a party and complained. Ferrari told him, "Looks fine to me."

I guess it boils down to what the guy really wants, a GS3 or just a great espresso machine.

Por supuesto.

This raises the economics question whether Makanmata's and the market place's expectations of the GS3 are unreasonably high. A great espresso machine helps you recognize each individual note in the blend, appreciate their respective values and weights, while aiding in the appreciation of the overall harmony. In some respects, it would seem the GS3 represent a small step forward compared to even the very best machines. But compared to those very best, it's a very small step which comes at considerable cost. Even at its hypothetical optimum the GS3 runs hard against the law of diminishing returns.

From an engineering standpoint, machine function includes ease of operation -- subsuming reliability and consistency. From a marketing POV, availability is subsumed. So far the GS3 is widely unavailable, has some reliability issues, LM is still pulling signature parts out of the generic bin, and at least one person over there has a rotten attitude. Not that this all won't change when everyone comes back from vacation, but then it may very well not. How long has LM been promising delivery of these things? Since '05? These defects are costs. How much more than $4500 is a GS3 worth? How much more than a tweaked Junior?

Time to inventory the competition.

Rich

*The Greek letter eta in lower case, looking like e is an engineering symbol for a perfected design. You may recognize it from BMW's alpha-numeric car names to indicate a final iteration, ala "325e."